Stitched Together. Gamble your Life rework suggestions.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, LeperColony said:

The Pale Rider can ignore about the same amount with Revel in Conflict's 5 trigger.  At almost twice the cost and not until turn 3 at the earliest...

Okay, that's something at least xD although you can shut it off with stunned, you can shut stitched down with slow to a degree.

I also realised obey an enemy to attack an enemy bypasses tons (many defensive techs only work against enemies). But again, more setup, and less things bypassed.

[Adran]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, and in the interest of falsifiability.. If anyone can find a non-master that can bypass as much defensive tech as Stitched, I'd at least reconsider my position. Especially if it was a low cost minion.

Fire gamin can put a pyre marker over a model just by walking through one and ending near. It only takes burning from it, (unless Kaeris is the leader) so its a slow damage form.

(There are several create Hazardous auras out there that bypass a lot of defensive tech, but most are on expensive models. Likewise there are quite a few things that create hazardous markers, but you've then got to get the model onto the marker).

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, Adran said:

Fire gamin can put a pyre marker over a model just by walking through one and ending near. It only takes burning from it, (unless Kaeris is the leader) so its a slow damage form.

(There are several create Hazardous auras out there that bypass a lot of defensive tech, but most are on expensive models. Likewise there are quite a few things that create hazardous markers, but you've then got to get the model onto the marker).

Hazardous auras are an interesting point.

They allow so much counterplay though (including "activate, no actions"), and can be moved out of. But ice golem hazardous two aura is definitely pretty epic.

I think there's a trend of either much higher cost models doing it (pale rider, ice golem), or it being much less damage (fire gamin), or more setup (all of the above).

[Ogid]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, and in the interest of falsifiability.. If anyone can find a non-master that can bypass as much defensive tech as Stitched, I'd at least reconsider my position. Especially if it was a low cost minion.

The following isn't an exahustive list, just from the top of my head so there are probably many more, most of these are in area instead of single target:

• Stuffed Piglet (2SS summonable) with Sparks bombs. Add the Piggapult for a potential global threat. 3 direct damage, up to 10 damage if the 3 TNs fails, in a bubble of 5-6''
• The sparks bombing is also doable in TT Foundry using disposable Katashiros (from Minako) killing themselves with Flicker. 3 damage + Katashiro attacks with Flicker.
• Hayreddin has a swift action trigger in Black Blood Pustule, so 4 ping damage in a bubble of 5-6'' (which combines well with his Life from blood aura). Nephilim crew may also ramp up the ping damage with Lelu and his aura, but this is more sustained damage.
• Crossroads 7 have their Destructive Performance (3 damage in 7'' bubble with trigger to do it again with another crossroads)
• As said above the pale rider devastation, 14 movement + 14'' bubble, irreductible damage, heals, burning and slow; being smart about it can be done twice gaining initiative.
• Ana Lovelace with Remote Detonator in Zombies, has a TN 13 Mv so it's not as good as the others, but it only uses her bonus action, has global range and zombies are easy to generate.
• These 2 involve summons and masters: 
  • Sandeep Poison bomb (4 damage and Poison+2 in a 6'' bubble, 7'' only 2 damage). As a second Master in Foundry sparks bombs may be added to the Poison gamin for up to 7 damage.
  • Electrical Creation bomb (this one can be summoned in pairs and either be killed by Ramos himself doing 8 damage in area or let the models kill themselves which will deal 4 damage and refund 4 cards or 4 SS)

And the generic ones:

• Any targeting a nearby model with less defenses or damage...
• Specific conditions, abilities, trigger and attacks: Stunned and certain abilities/attacks versus Df triggers, ignore armor/irreductible damage, built in or auras versus duels , Ruthless, Inhuman Psysiology, damage versus H2W... using the right tool versus the right foe make things much easier.

[Maniacal_cackle]

37 minutes ago, Ogid said:

The following isn't an exahustive list, just from the top of my head so there are probably many more, most of these are in area instead of single target:

• Stuffed Piglet (2SS summonable) with Sparks bombs. Add the Piggapult for a potential global threat. 3 direct damage, up to 10 damage if the 3 TNs fails, in a bubble of 5-6''
• The sparks bombing is also doable in TT Foundry using disposable Katashiros (from Minako) killing themselves with Flicker. 3 damage + Katashiro attacks with Flicker.
• Hayreddin has a swift action trigger in Black Blood Pustule, so 4 ping damage in a bubble of 5-6'' (which combines well with his Life from blood aura). Nephilim crew may also ramp up the ping damage with Lelu and his aura, but this is more sustained damage.
• Crossroads 7 have their Destructive Performance (3 damage in 7'' bubble with trigger to do it again with another crossroads)
• As said above the pale rider devastation, 14 movement + 14'' bubble, irreductible damage, heals, burning and slow; being smart about it can be done twice gaining initiative.
• Ana Lovelace with Remote Detonator in Zombies, has a TN 13 Mv so it's not as good as the others, but it only uses her bonus action, has global range and zombies are easy to generate.
• These 2 involve summons and masters: 
  • Sandeep Poison bomb (4 damage and Poison+2 in a 6'' bubble, 7'' only 2 damage). As a second Master in Foundry sparks bombs may be added to the Poison gamin for up to 7 damage.
  • Electrical Creation bomb (this one can be summoned in pairs and either be killed by Ramos himself doing 8 damage in area or let the models kill themselves which will deal 4 damage and refund 4 cards or 4 SS)

And the generic ones:

• Any targeting a nearby model with less defenses or damage...
• Specific conditions, abilities, trigger and attacks: Stunned and certain abilities/attacks versus Df triggers, ignore armor/irreductible damage, built in or auras versus duels , Ruthless, Inhuman Psysiology, damage versus H2W... using the right tool versus the right foe make things much easier.

The shockwaves and pulses all require the target to fail relatively simple duels, so aren't really of the nature of unavoidable damage (and are much weaker damage tracks as well). Area damage is such a different beast it doesn't really compare.

How's the Katashiro one work? That just looks like attack spam with fate modifiers.

Hayreddin is a good point. He and the summons are the only ones on the list that seems to fit the bill (though it is very telling that you also have to do four damage to your own model).

Crossroads seven is only doable with a henchman leader, the opponent taking an action that gives them a sin token, and then that sin token has to be used. The models cost more than stitched, and can do a maximum of three damage instead of a minimum.

Pale Rider - yup, is nuts! Although turn three onward for an 11 stone model, widely considered the best of the riders (which are often considered the best versatile models in their factions).

The summon nukes are neat (shouldn't it be 3 damage on Sandeep?), but involve sacrificing a model. Ramos/DMH aren't as relevant since they're not balanced for competitive play (though are still only 4 damage per nuker, not 5, and require master actions).

EDIT: oh yeah, I said non master as well!

[Ogid]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

The shockwaves and pulses all require the target to fail relatively simple duels, so aren't really of the nature of unavoidable damage (and are much weaker damage tracks as well). Area damage is such a different beast it doesn't really compare.

How's the Katashiro one work? That just looks like attack spam with fate modifiers

As I said before I don't want to enter to compare again, just showing some of the tools in the game.

What you are missing in those 2 combos is Sparks bombs that give a demise with  3 unavoidable damage in area.

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Crossroads seven is only doable with a henchman leader, the opponent taking an action that gives them a sin token, and then that sin token has to be used. The models cost more than stitched, and can do a maximum of three damage instead of a minimum.

They can do 6 damage in area in one action with the trigger; I'm not sure about other factions, but in NVB Lyssas can set up Wrath  very nicely in other crews (and enemies will attack anyway).

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

The summon nukes are neat (shouldn't it be 3 damage on Sandeep?), but involve sacrificing a model. Ramos/DMH aren't as relevant since they're not balanced for competitive play (though are still only 4 damage per nuker, not 5, and require master actions).

4 with the Banasuba aura concentrating with command the elements (which may also give a card with Kandara near). It's true that requires sacrificing the model, but poison gaming is 5SS cost and Sandeep has stat 7 summoner, he can bring 2 gamins in one summon action (12 for 4+5, 13 for 5+5 and 14 for 5+6) so it's not that bad for him. In fact it can be even higher summoning 2 Poison gaming, concentrating both and blowing up one of them: it'd be 5 damage, Posion+3, 1 extra for Catalyst when that model activates so 5-7 unavoidable damage in area. Commanding a Golem or Kandara would be probably better than 2 concentrate actions in gamings imo, but if for some reason the unavoidable damage is what the crew needs or the other player is very clumpled he can do it.

2 extra fun facts for the above: All of that could be done proxing with the Gury ability for up to a nice 14'' range (so up to 17'' to the target) and if that's done in a model near of the scorpius, the damage would be irreductible with SS.

AFAIK DHM was also playtested in beta, it shouldn't be more unbalanced than any other crew even if it's not legal in most tournaments.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Crossroads seven is only doable with a henchman leader, the opponent taking an action that gives them a sin token, and then that sin token has to be used. The models cost more than stitched, and can do a maximum of three damage instead of a minimum.

Every faction has 1 crossroads 7 model, so every Master has access to Destructive performance. You need a henchman leader to get more than 1 in the crew.

Envy can completely guarantee 3 damage to almost any model in the game. He can use his bonus action to give a model focus (and so a sin token as well), then destructive performance to deal 3 damage.  All it needs is 1 card to discard and 1 simple duel for a 6. It can potentially affect multiple models. The only downside is the opponent gains focused. I don't think any of the others have such an easy guaranteed way to give the sin token.

He only costs 7. So the same cost as a stitched out of keyword.

 

As far as I can tell (and I took part in the beta testing) Dead mans hand was subject to the same testing as other masters. They weren't the most played masters from what I saw, but they weren't the least played masters either. There was no evidence that the designers didn't give them an equal weighting for balance.

 

 

 

[Angelshard]

Disclaimer: I haven't played dreamer since open beta, but I did play a lot of games with him during beta. 

I am honestly sick and tired of Gamble your Life. Not because I think it's too strong, I don't, but because of the discussions it creates. During open beta lucid dreams and stitched went through quite a few different iterations. As I saw it Fiendish gamble was added to give Dreamer players a bit of control over Lucid dreams (I don't think it was needed, lucid dreams is strong without it) and to make stitched more appealing, as they were considered sub-par. 

The different solutions I have seen to stitched are:

Reducing Mv. I agree that this would have very little effect you generally get them where you want them without using walk actions.

Reducing his survivability. I don't think this will solve the Npe issue most people have with the model, it isn't the fact that he's tanky that people dislikes, it's that he comes back and that his attack feels unavoidable. If you removed every healing options he had and bloated stench and changed his df to 4 people would still hate him, even though that would, in arguably be a major nerf. 

Lowering his damage track. A track of 2/3/4, so maximum of 8 damage instead of 10 would do very little difference. The model would be a lot worse at its main job and you could still remove a rider in two activations, if you have the right cards in hand and out of the deck. Remember that you can flip, hope that you win and use fiendish gamble to guarantee the severe damage if you don't have a severe in hand. 

Changing gamble to an attack action. This would require a major rewrite of the action as its so far from a 'normal' action. Just changing it to an attack would lead to a metric ton of issues, kinda like the old version of Self Loathing. 

The main issue I see is that, unlike pale riders Revel, which is also hated, but at least just damages you without you doing anything, gamble forces you to flip a card that you feel doesn't matter and that is a terrible feeling. A flip shouldn't leave you with a bad taste in the mouth before you've even seen the card. 

The solutions I see are:

Allow the flip to be cheatable. This would put at least some agency in the opponents hand. 

Have it deal damage to both models in the case of a tie. Suddenly the stitched would hurt itself quite badly if it wants the severe damage. 

Remove enemy only restriction. This would hurt the crew a lot! Any obey on a stitched would guarantee a min 3 damage to the crew and force the dreamer to put a low card back in the deck if he wants to ensure that the stitched takes the damage. It would, however, also give some card cycling to dreamer if you don't care about the damage and there are ways to mitigate it. 

Completely rewrite GYL. I'm not a fan of this one as I think it's something that should only be done in extreme cases and I don't think this justifies it. 

Do nothing. Honestly the main problem is the Npe feeling, which is also a big problem, but stitched aren't dominating the game, at least where I come from. 

[Mycellanious]

With regards to Sparks, I just like to point out that since Bomb in Yer Belly requires 2 models their costs should be added together. Sparks costs 8 plus 6 from the Katashiro (ook) for 14 stones total. Sparks also needs a 6 to attach the upgrade and deploy within 1" of the Katashiro. 

Furthermore, while the flicker bomb is powerful it has its downsides. TFW talks about it, but in short you are killing your own model when it can often be better to leave that model engaging an enemy to make them kill it. Which of course leads to the next point which is that you kill your own model. And because its an AoE effect you can play around it by spreading your crew apart and keeping your minions up front so it ends up being a 6ss trade on both sides. 

[Math Mathonwy]

8 hours ago, Ogid said:

The following isn't an exahustive list, just from the top of my head so there are probably many more, most of these are in area instead of single target:

• Stuffed Piglet (2SS summonable) with Sparks bombs. Add the Piggapult for a potential global threat. 3 direct damage, up to 10 damage if the 3 TNs fails, in a bubble of 5-6''

That's a Stuffed Piglet (2SS), Sparks (8SS but likely 9SS since Stuffed comes from a different keyword), and Pigapult (7SS though it comes with a single free Stuffed) that kills the Stuffed! So it's nearly a 20 Stone combo (in reality you want more than one ammo if you're going this route) that requires hitting two TNs and the opponent to fail three simple duels and Armor counts for quadruple since it's four sources of damage. If you're going that route, why not mention Joss exploding for 40 if the whole crew has been dedicated to pumping him full of Power Tokens? Seems equally relevant. Also, where on earth are you getting "a bubble of 5-6" " from?

The honest comparison would be that Sparks (8SS) can give a Demise ability for a model to do 3 damage which bypasses a lot of the same defenses as a Stitched does and it's a 2" pulse.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Unavoidable damage definitely is a thing (even a focused attack with stat 6 and cheating a severe will hit almost anything).

But there seems to be a trend of:

• It requires a lot more stones than the stitched, or does less damage, or both.
• Generally requires more setup than stitched (gamble barely requires setup beyond what the crew is already doing)
• Some involve master actions
• Many are not as spammable as stitched.
• Sometimes take multiple actions (don't really count lucid dreaming as an extra action)

Hamelin once one-shot my Archie by stacking unavoidable blight tokens, for example. But that is clearly a different beast.

[Ogid]

4 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

With regards to Sparks, I just like to point out that since Bomb in Yer Belly requires 2 models their costs should be added together. Sparks costs 8 plus 6 from the Katashiro (ook) for 14 stones total. Sparks also needs a 6 to attach the upgrade and deploy within 1" of the Katashiro. 

This is a very inefficient way to do that combo, the idea is hiring Minako and use scrap (foundry) to summon disposable Katashiros; not hiring them with the OOK tax.

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

That's a Stuffed Piglet (2SS), Sparks (8SS but likely 9SS since Stuffed comes from a different keyword), and Pigapult (7SS though it comes with a single free Stuffed) that kills the Stuffed! So it's nearly a 20 Stone combo (in reality you want more than one ammo if you're going this route) that requires hitting two TNs and the opponent to fail three simple duels and Armor counts for quadruple since it's four sources of damage. If you're going that route, why not mention Joss exploding for 40 if the whole crew has been dedicated to pumping him full of Power Tokens? Seems equally relevant. Also, where on earth are you getting "a bubble of 5-6" " from?

The honest comparison would be that Sparks (8SS) can give a Demise ability for a model to do 3 damage which bypasses a lot of the same defenses as a Stitched does and it's a 2" pulse.

3 Stitcheds are 18 or 21 SS OOK so that combo is around the cost of a maxed stitched list. You can see I wrote there are 3 TNs in addition to the demise, so there is no reason to call out that. And totally agree, the Joss explosion is a bad example; the piggapult with stuffed pigglets on the other hand isn't anything out of the ordinary, in fact the built-in trigger of the piggapult works only with them.

You seemed way less worried for honest comparisons some pages ago where stitcheds were "trivialy killing BBB", when spamming attacks versus them were the way to go or when other users wrote about bubbles refering to stitched's range. In this case "bubble" is the area of the blast counting also the base of the model (I guess you already knew that, but just in case); or as you well said, a 2'' pulse. It's nice to see you all commited with totally honest comparisons now 

[Mycellanious]

37 minutes ago, Ogid said:

This is a very inefficient way to do that combo, the idea is hiring Minako and use scrap (foundry) to summon disposable Katashiros; not hiring them with the OOK tax.

 

I assumed you wanted the cheapest comparision because using Minako is less efficient. She costs 2ss more and it takes an extra 10 Tome or 10 plus a ss to create the Katashiro in the first place. This in a crew with 0 card draw and lots of discards is pretty card intensive. 

On the upside you can spend even more resources to summon them back, but it requires Sparks and Minako to be near each other and their AP and cards and you cant cheese out an extra attack from Placing the Katashiro as its summoned cuz it needs to be summones near Sparks and it still requires you to kill the Katashiro

At that point it may be better just to hire Asami herself (also 16 stones)

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

 

You seemed way less worried for honest comparisons some pages ago where stitcheds were "trivialy killing BBB", when spamming attacks versus them were the way to go or when other users wrote about bubbles refering to stitched's range. In this case "bubble" is the area of the blast counting also the base of the model (I guess you already knew that, but just in case); or as you well said, a 2'' pulse. It's nice to see you all commited with totally honest comparisons now 

I think you'll find that was a case of "I played a game and this is what they did".  I don't think that was a comparison to anything.

You started this thread asking a question, and it seems you don't like a lot of the answers you are getting. That's fine, people have different opinions. It's not a personal thing, they just disagree with your view. 

It's also worth noting that no one posting in this thread actually has any say on what happens to them. It's all just a discussion with no real purpose. 

 

 

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

I assumed you wanted the cheapest comparision because using Minako is less efficient. She costs 2ss more and it takes an extra 10 Tome or 10 plus a ss to create the Katashiro in the first place. This in a crew with 0 card draw and lots of discards is pretty card intensive. 

On the upside you can spend even more resources to summon them back, but it requires Sparks and Minako to be near each other and their AP and cards and you cant cheese out an extra attack from Placing the Katashiro as its summoned cuz it needs to be summones near Sparks and it still requires you to kill the Katashiro

I'm not sure what's the best way to balance or use that crew, but paying 6-12 OOK SS to suicide models like that is bad business that's for sure; with the stuffed pigglets costing 2SS and with huge damage potential and range it's ok, but not 6SS. It's true that will slow down Minako, but after the bombing you still have those models to keep playing.

2 hours ago, Adran said:

I think you'll find that was a case of "I played a game and this is what they did".  I don't think that was a comparison to anything.

You started this thread asking a question, and it seems you don't like a lot of the answers you are getting. That's fine, people have different opinions. It's not a personal thing, they just disagree with your view. 

It's also worth noting that no one posting in this thread actually has any say on what happens to them. It's all just a discussion with no real purpose. 

I've read a lot of interesting feedback and suggestions in this thread from both people that thinks it's too strong and from other that think it's ok. I don't want to hear folks echoing what I think. He is free to disagree as much as he wants; but calling names is another history.

I maybe were a bit snarky in my last post, but It wasn't for him disagreeing with me. I was pointing out that I expect unbiased opinions, examples and suggestions from someone that calls others' points dishonest like that. His example is a worst case scenario where he didn't used nor commented any tool that could help him there and his suggestion is way over the top (Df4 and no armor). I explained in the following post posible ways to counterplay and make that situation less bad (I wouldn't blame a newbie for those kind of examples or suggestions if he didn't really know how to handle it), but he answered he is a seasoned player who already knew that.

[santaclaws01]

10 hours ago, Ogid said:

3 Stitcheds are 18 or 21 SS OOK so that combo is around the cost of a maxed stitched list

Or you just use 1 of the 3 models who can summon them, one of which is a versatile model, and 1 of which can spend all actions summoning not lose much mobility. And you can bring combinations of 2 of them together and still be in keyword. Not to mention that WW and/or Vasilisa can both be taken in out of keyword lists and still provide plenty of synergy for half the masters in the faction so you're not even paying an opportunity cost for the ability to be able to summon stitched in those crews.

[Math Mathonwy]

12 hours ago, Ogid said:

This is a very inefficient way to do that combo, the idea is hiring Minako and use scrap (foundry) to summon disposable Katashiros; not hiring them with the OOK tax.

3 Stitcheds are 18 or 21 SS OOK so that combo is around the cost of a maxed stitched list. You can see I wrote there are 3 TNs in addition to the demise, so there is no reason to call out that. And totally agree, the Joss explosion is a bad example; the piggapult with stuffed pigglets on the other hand isn't anything out of the ordinary, in fact the built-in trigger of the piggapult works only with them.

You seemed way less worried for honest comparisons some pages ago where stitcheds were "trivialy killing BBB", when spamming attacks versus them were the way to go or when other users wrote about bubbles refering to stitched's range. In this case "bubble" is the area of the blast counting also the base of the model (I guess you already knew that, but just in case); or as you well said, a 2'' pulse. It's nice to see you all commited with totally honest comparisons now 

Ah, the good old middle-finger cleverly disguised as an innocent smiley - very nice!

@Maniacal_cackle asked about a non-Master that can bypass as much defensive tech as a Stitched, especially a low-cost Minion and you list ten things ranging from stuff avoidable by a low TN simple duel to 20SS combos that do a bit of unavoidable damage through a sizable investment in cards, AP, and models. Oh, and pepper the list with a couple of real examples. It didn't seem to me to be an honest attempt at answering the original question or making more sense of the situation but more like someone who wanted to purposefully muddy the waters. Maybe I'm mistaken and your intentions were pure but the execution was nonetheless super bizarre.

I was honestly confused by the 5-6" thing since unless you're somehow giving Stuffeds a 50mm base, the 6" doesn't seem very likely to me and I was wondering whether you meant that the Stuffed can move and thus extend the range or something. But now I realize that you meant 5.18" = 5-6"

Finally, the BBB thing happened in a real game. Or are you calling me a liar now? I mean, maybe I'm a bad player and you would've played it far better but it was a thing that happened and it did not look like a situation that would be all that difficult for a competent Dreamer to set up when needed.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I don't see much more productive discussion happening and the thread is devolving, so perhaps we should all just leave it at that.

[Math Mathonwy]

8 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I don't see much more productive discussion happening and the thread is devolving, so perhaps we should all just leave it at that.

What do you feel would happen, if Stitched would lose their Armor - do you think they would still be relevant? Or is the problem more to do with Summoning and should they have a rule that says something like "When this model is Summoned, it suffer four damage" (four since it's reduced by Armor to the more conventional three)? Or do you feel that it is GYL which needs to change?

[Maniacal_cackle]

33 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

What do you feel would happen, if Stitched would lose their Armor - do you think they would still be relevant? Or is the problem more to do with Summoning and should they have a rule that says something like "When this model is Summoned, it suffer four damage" (four since it's reduced by Armor to the more conventional three)? Or do you feel that it is GYL which needs to change?

I think hitting defense/health just makes them even worse in the average situation (where they're fine), and does nothing about their problematic situation (spam-nuking them).

Changing GYL to an attack action feels like the most appropriate thing, for the reasons I've listed previously.

[Ogid]

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

@Maniacal_cackle asked about a non-Master that can bypass as much defensive tech as a Stitched, especially a low-cost Minion and you list ten things ranging from stuff avoidable by a low TN simple duel to 20SS combos that do a bit of unavoidable damage through a sizable investment in cards, AP, and models. Oh, and pepper the list with a couple of real examples. It didn't seem to me to be an honest attempt at answering the original question or making more sense of the situation but more like someone who wanted to purposefully muddy the waters. Maybe I'm mistaken and your intentions were pure but the execution was nonetheless super bizarre.

I was answering his question, as I said I just listed the things that came to my mind at that point; there was no evil plan behind. I included Masters there, but let's not forget that unbury in B2B is after all an ability coming from the master.

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I was honestly confused by the 5-6" thing since unless you're somehow giving Stuffeds a 50mm base, the 6" doesn't seem very likely to me and I was wondering whether you meant that the Stuffed can move and thus extend the range or something. But now I realize that you meant 5.18" = 5-6"

5.2'' is the right one you're right, as I said above I listed the things quickly and I didn't stop to check all the numbers.

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Finally, the BBB thing happened in a real game. Or are you calling me a liar now? I mean, maybe I'm a bad player and you would've played it far better but it was a thing that happened and it did not look like a situation that would be all that difficult for a competent Dreamer to set up when needed.

I don't think or ever said you are a bad player or a liar. I only saw a desperate scenario for the Mah and a very harsh nerf suggestion. Without more information I can't know if your call were the right one; being able to unbury an stitched just next to a model like that sucks for the other player, but leave BBB behind to score instead of dealing with it may well be the right call depending on the turn and the game.

I don't know how much experience you have with/versus that crew, how good are your dreamer oponents, how you pick versus dreamer, If you find those scenarios all the time, if you struggle versus them summoned by Dreamer, hired or when summoned by WW/Vasi or if you just dislike the model and get carried away. Your opinion seemed biased or malicious (not saying it was), but I had no more interest in digging there until you call me out before for being "dishonest" with my examples. It was the "dishonest" part what bothered me, not what you may think about a model.

This could be missunderstanding, but even if it's not there is no reason to get angry about something like this. Let's get over it, no hard feelings.

[Math Mathonwy]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think hitting defense/health just makes them even worse in the average situation (where they're fine), and does nothing about their problematic situation (spam-nuking them).

The general consensus amongst the people in the tournament (including the two Dreamer players present and including highly accomplished veterans) was that GYL is bonkers but the defenses are the actually baffling part and what makes things seem unfair since dealing with them is so difficult. Essentially the only counterplay available is running away or dealing with them and dealing with them is extremely difficult.

Just to explain where I'm coming from and that I'm not alone in my opinion.

I also do admit that I have never seen anyone else besides me actually hire the things - they have always been Summoned (I hired some when I was testing Collodi) so my views may be tainted by that.

Edit: To expand a wee bit still, I feel that the problem with Stitched is their massive damage potential with minimal counterplay opportunities - especially when Summoned. Making GYL less "weird" and giving counterplay that way would be one possibility. The other possibility would be to lessen the defenses of Stitched thus making counterplay easier that way. And I feel that from a "fluff" perspective the latter would fit them better while retaining what makes them unique. But that is naturally a very subjective opinion.

[Math Mathonwy]

2 hours ago, Ogid said:

I was answering his question, as I said I just listed the things that came to my mind at that point; there was no evil plan behind. I included Masters there, but let's not forget that unbury in B2B is after all an ability coming from the master.

My confusion rose from the fact that you didn't seem to answer his question but rather some other question that was far, far looser in scope.

But that said, I do 100% believe what you are saying now and communication is never easy and I for one have been guilty of similar many times in the past so fair enough.

2 hours ago, Ogid said:

I don't know how much experience you have with/versus that crew, how good are your dreamer oponents, how you pick versus dreamer, If you find those scenarios all the time, if you struggle versus them summoned by Dreamer, hired or when summoned by WW/Vasi or if you just dislike the model and get carried away.

There's three Dreamer players around, one is a beginner, one is moderately experienced, and one is a superb player. All the Dreamer games seem to revolve strongly around GYL but that is naturally anecdotal.

Oh, and I have never lost a game where I have used the Stitched. But that is even less of an indication of a greater trend than my other Stitched experiences.

2 hours ago, Ogid said:

Your opinion seemed biased or malicious (not saying it was), but I had no more interest in digging there until you call me out before for being "dishonest" with my examples. It was the "dishonest" part what bothered me, not what you may think about a model.

This could be missunderstanding, but even if it's not there is no reason to get angry about something like this. Let's get over it, no hard feelings.

I'm not quite sure I called you dishonest but if I did, I sincerely apologize.

[Ogid]

Np, comunication by forum isn't easy, especially without knowing each other and having different experiences and metas; and I can also be quick tempered sometimes.

It seems neither did I got you right, so yeah sorry for the above  (now without middle finger :P)

[Ceodoc]

On 12/11/2019 at 12:09 AM, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, and in the interest of falsifiability.. If anyone can find a non-master that can bypass as much defensive tech as Stitched, I'd at least reconsider my position. Especially if it was a low cost minion.

IMHO you can't look at Stitched in a vacuum like that.

Is Stitched there to cover weaknesses in the Nightmare crew or any other 'tax' crew (7SS)? Again IMHO-Yes.