Keyword power rankings

[mattbird]

Which is the most powerful keyword / master in your opinion? Which the worst? 

My opinion- The top tier:

1. Lynch / Honeypot: Rig the Deck means you know what's coming, and he has the models to make use of it. 

2. Shenlong / Monk: Manipulating your stats when you need to, switching abilities when the game calls for it, gaining focus when you've got to kill things. 

3. Yan Lo / Ancestors: They beat you down, then come back fro more. 

4. McCabe / Wastrels: So evasive, so annoying.

5. Asami / Oni: They can beat you up, they can drop markers, then can summon more when they need 'em, then flicker away before the enemy can kill 'em. 

The lower tier:

6.  Mei Feng / Foundry: So fast*. So killy.* So hard to kill*.   ........  *unless they know you chose Mei and loaded up on anti-armor and scrap marker removal. 

7. Youko / Qui and Gong: I don't know what she does, so she must be bad or people would be talking her up by now.

8. Misaki / Blossoms: The killy master who cannot kill. The killy henchmen who with 2AP. What's the point of these again? 

[Jesy Blue]

All the Qi & Gong models aren't released yet, so most people are holding off.  In the open beta, Youko's crew is a beast of opposing player frustration! 

The new Wastrals models announced will be released later on this year, with The Society launching many more models for the keyword will also arrive, so their placements will adjust drastically later.

 

Also, there's a whole series of episodes of Schemes and Stones dictating exactly what you're doing.

[mattbird]

15 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

Also, there's a whole series of episodes of Schemes and Stones dictating exactly what you're doing.

I listened to it. But they ain't the endword.

[Fixxer]

In my opinion, 

 

Players are powerful, not keywords.

[Ogid]

14 hours ago, mattbird said:

8. Misaki / Blossoms: The killy master who cannot kill. The killy henchmen who with 2AP. What's the point of these again? 

I've played a bit of last blossom and I think that statement is underselling them.

Misaki can hit almost any point of the table if played right; she can be destroying an scheme runner in one corner of the map one turn and the next one appear and help in a fight for the control of the middle point. Charge throught plus an stat 7 means she can hit very reliabily for maximum damage (which could be 7) once per turn (if she is versus hard to hit models, she would need to spend a focus for that tho). Versus clumped enemies without damage reduction Lightining strike is amazing, in the ideal conditions it could deal 12 damage to each enemy in range (realistically 6-8). Note that even without armor she has extended reach and mobile warrior; attacking her in mele is very ineficient for a lot of models.

Ototo is a bit slow but hits like a truck (kind of like Misaki, but with stat 6 so not that reliable) and can gain fast after a kill. If misaki is near, the Oyabun's command could be used to get an extra attack with him and trigger "Charge through" a second time. Plus Masked Agent may help him to get where he should be. And he can deliver a lot of Slow.

That keyword has also good scheme abilities and scheme runners, good shooters, lots of range 2 meles with extended reach and Minako, who can summon Katashiros out of shadow markers. And TT in general has some versatiles that will help to round the creed (Samurai/Fuhatsu, Tanukis, Lone swordman, terracota...). Misako may be used as a killy master, but she has also the mobility to play outmanouver the other team and go for scheme markers.

I'm not saying they are god tier or easy to use, but I don't think LastBlossom is a bad keyword.

[Trample]

15 hours ago, mattbird said:

Which is the most powerful keyword / master in your opinion? Which the worst? 

My opinion- The top tier:

1. Lynch / Honeypot: Rig the Deck means you know what's coming, and he has the models to make use of it. 

2. Shenlong / Monk: Manipulating your stats when you need to, switching abilities when the game calls for it, gaining focus when you've got to kill things. 

3. Yan Lo / Ancestors: They beat you down, then come back fro more. 

4. McCabe / Wastrels: So evasive, so annoying.

5. Asami / Oni: They can beat you up, they can drop markers, then can summon more when they need 'em, then flicker away before the enemy can kill 'em. 

The lower tier:

6.  Mei Feng / Foundry: So fast*. So killy.* So hard to kill*.   ........  *unless they know you chose Mei and loaded up on anti-armor and scrap marker removal. 

7. Youko / Qui and Gong: I don't know what she does, so she must be bad or people would be talking her up by now.

8. Misaki / Blossoms: The killy master who cannot kill. The killy henchmen who with 2AP. What's the point of these again? 

Probably not too far off in my opinion, but I haven't played all of the them/against them yet. If your tiers are in order I may switch them around a bit. 

I think Mei is still upper tier because her crew can outpace scrap removal and doesn't rely solely on armor. I think we have more to see from Youko. Her crew is soft and slow, but I've only played Molly into her which kind of took the winds out of her anti-hand sails. Sadly I think you're spot on with Misaki. Her crew can scheme pretty well and Misaki can get some bonus actions out of Ototo, but you're really working hard to manage every attack. 

 

 

[Cursed25]

16 hours ago, mattbird said:

Which is the most powerful keyword / master in your opinion? Which the worst? 

My opinion- The top tier:

1. Lynch / Honeypot: Rig the Deck means you know what's coming, and he has the models to make use of it. 

2. Shenlong / Monk: Manipulating your stats when you need to, switching abilities when the game calls for it, gaining focus when you've got to kill things. 

3. Yan Lo / Ancestors: They beat you down, then come back fro more. 

4. McCabe / Wastrels: So evasive, so annoying.

5. Asami / Oni: They can beat you up, they can drop markers, then can summon more when they need 'em, then flicker away before the enemy can kill 'em. 

The lower tier:

6.  Mei Feng / Foundry: So fast*. So killy.* So hard to kill*.   ........  *unless they know you chose Mei and loaded up on anti-armor and scrap marker removal. 

7. Youko / Qui and Gong: I don't know what she does, so she must be bad or people would be talking her up by now.

8. Misaki / Blossoms: The killy master who cannot kill. The killy henchmen who with 2AP. What's the point of these again? 

I'm agreeing with your first 3! not necessarily in this order but they are our best keywords by far!

 

McCabe: We can't really place for now because he's missing a lot of models but what he has for now is okay/good and can give you a nice game! He will surely become stronger with more choices with the new faction!

Asami: She has a very versatile keyword that can do a lot of things but she has to work a lot to keep her summons a few turn to benefit from them! I've seen some player play her as a melee beater/support role with way less focus on summoning and it worked very nicely too! Her keyword is strong enough that you don't absolutely need to summon each turn and she can do mean things to other models with her maw attack! Also why is it important to flicker your model away before they get killed? because when they have 3 flicker they get killed anyway and this count for reckoning for your opponent exactly as if he had killed them! If you are doing an Obsidian Oni bomb or really want something to die I understand but if not there's no point doing this because opponent as to use actions (often many) to remove your summoned model!

Misaki is weaker than the top 3 keyword but she is a well rounded master with a good melee attack and her mobility is really strong. Also her keyword can do every job you need! (except maybe tanking but Samurai are there for this!  )

Never really looked into Mei Feng but I've heard she is stronger in Arcanist because of better synergies with her crew and the upgrades are strong too!

Youko can be really strong and painful to play against but she is hard to play well! Most of her models are glass canon so you have to play very smart or every mistakes will be painful. You have incredible hand control over your opponent and you can do a lot of nasty stuff with her trigger obey because you can take bonus action with it!  I don't think she is top tier and she definitely needs help from our versatile models (I played her with 2 samurai and it was pretty good!) but she can do well and you can put a lot of pressure on opponent!

 

I don't think in TT we have weak keywords. Every one of them is playable and can win even against other factions best keyword! We are well rounded, our versatiles are strong, our upgrades too (really like silent protector and trained ninja!) and the TT as a faction can let you play any role very effectively! In a tournament this is really good! I like having a lot of choices and every masters we got have a place where they really shine and can do well in competitive play! I know some keywords have stronger mechanics/models but I would not feel bad playing Misaki or Youko in an Event!  

[mattbird]

1 hour ago, Trample said:

I think Mei is still upper tier because her crew can outpace scrap removal and doesn't rely solely on armor. 

 

 

One of the things that Schemes and Stones podcast whiffed on was their analysis of Kang, which they didn't rate well. IMO his 6" pulse giving out focus makes him auto take (apart from him being a reliable beater).

[mattbird]

11 minutes ago, Cursed25 said:

Also why is it important to flicker your model away before they get killed? because when they have 3 flicker they get killed anyway and this count for reckoning for your opponent exactly as if he had killed them!

Do they? I might have missed this...

[Mycellanious]

36 minutes ago, mattbird said:

One of the things that Schemes and Stones podcast whiffed on was their analysis of Kang, which they didn't rate well. IMO his 6" pulse giving out focus makes him auto take (apart from him being a reliable beater).

I've noticed a lot of people on the forums disparaging Kang, but the Foundry is the only crew I play (cuz I'm poor) and imo Kang makes the Foundry work. You want to spend 1 action per turn Railwalking, and since most models have 2 actions, that only leave you with 1 action to interact or hit stuff. But, most Foundry models have a 2/4/5 damage track. Focused attacks therefore usually hit about as hard as 2 unfocused attacks, meaning Kang allows the Foundry to Railwalk w/o a drop in dps. Combine this with the Rail Driver attack (Neil and Railworkers) and spare scrap and you have a powerful, reliable attack once per activation. The trick is that for Kang, the more models you have the more efficient he is. I run a lot of minion heavy lists whereas I think a lot people in M3E like elite lists

This is not to say I always take Kang. If I take >10 ss out of keyword (so the Rider) I seriously consider not taking him because his abilities arent as effective. Itd be interesting to try Tanuki instead of Kang

[FrostHunter]

I would separate the masters from keyword as the Honeypot i would agree that is one of the best keyword as so ability Rig the Deck, but Lynch alone is quite... mediocre and unfortunately boring in play in comparision to other masters (quite slow, not the best buffer/debuffer, all his oomph comes from Succumb to Darkness which is freaking great and i am jumping from joy for spontaneus and opportunistic summoning for Honeypot but... it overshadows the rest of his attacks actions a bit, and as i played him a few games i miss a little the old Lynch from second edition with cheating bastard upgrade, now it's charge to deliver more brilliance, Succumb and Summon something then walk behind something more beefy in my crew).

Youko is freaking great controller even without true obey action, okey she suffer a bit from focus spam as it negates her defensive tech. She can mess with opponent hand and a little with his deck, frustrating any heavy hand depending crew (for instance - Lynch). As for glass cannon crew members - Leverage is wonderful and very powerful mechanic for the defence (for offence i ussualy don't need to use it, so much 6 and few 7 stat attacks and cheating possibilities), also Hard to Kill and Stealth from upgrades are your friends. Hinamatsu is hard to crack with armor, leverage and stones while he is beats with his 6+ attack.

Funny question - what is the timing of Zoraida's Threads of Fate if Youko is within 6" from her, both players discards their hand simultaneously so Youko draws 12 cards?

McCabe for me is probably the top master in TT - freaking mobility that he can share with someone thanks to the Ride with me, wonderful condition spam from netgun and discarding artifacts, also spam of high Mv duels and some Wp and Df duels too... and only 3 actions wit so many possibilities... in case of glass cannons i would say that Wastrels are much less durable then Qi and Gong.

 

[Cursed25]

2 hours ago, mattbird said:

Do they? I might have missed this...

yep!  it's written at the end of From beyond!

[Cursed25]

43 minutes ago, FrostHunter said:

Funny question - what is the timing of Zoraida's Threads of Fate if Youko is within 6" from her, both players discards their hand simultaneously so Youko draws 12 cards?

Youko draws no card at all because it's not an enemy model who discard the cards but the players!

 

Youko's Calm Demeanor works only when enemy model discards a card

and 

Zoraida Threads of Fate specifies that it's the players who discard the card

 

So sadly no card draw!  

[FrostHunter]

4 minutes ago, Cursed25 said:

Youko draws no card at all because it's not an enemy model who discard the cards but the players!

 

Youko's Calm Demeanor works only when enemy model discards a card

and 

Zoraida Threads of Fate specifies that it's the players who discard the card

 

So sadly no card draw!  

Damn it, I knew that i've missed somthing there... it was so wonderful idea at first glance.

[DeleteAccount]

I didn't think much of Misaki till I played her, she truly does fill the board with her markers unless the opponent tailors specifically to nuke terrain and that makes all her crew amazing at taking objectives. Ototo is a bit of a wet fart, but his ability to set up an extra shadow marker may prove invaluable thanks to how amazing the Crime Bosses and Minako Rei are and how much they depend/enjoy those shadow markers.

Asami I'd also place higher, she can do anything at any given moment, her versatility is just top notch and the Tengu and Yokai are pretty good schemers overall.

Yan Lo is a beast, a bit of a slow starter himself, but his keyword is full of topnotch choices.

McCabe I think is being slept on since he is missing some key pieces, once Desper and friends are out, he will do WORK, specially in areas that allow dual masters.

Shenlong... is a weird one. Shenlong himself is amazing and can do pretty much anything at any given time. It's wonderful to know that you can kick something to death at one point, and if you can't get in, you can be one of the best healers in the game in the next turn. The rest of the crew dies to a stiff breeze though unless you top load the hell out of them with Chi which requires a lot of "self play" which I personally find kind of annoying. Definitely low river monks and Wandering river monks have a place, rest I find more debatable and wonder if he's better filling the list with Versatile models and from other keywords.

Mei Feng I don't personally put much stock on, but our local top player considers her one of the most dangerous masters in Ten Thunders. He does emphasize that Sparks has to be in there and there is some evil to be had combining that with Lone Swordsman...

Nothing to say about Youko nor Lynch, I just don't do them.

[mattbird]

Mei and her crew are amazing (and Sparks makes them that much moreso), the only reason I had her lower was that I think in competitive play she'll suffer. 

[Yew Arcane]

24 minutes ago, Razhem said:

I didn't think much of Misaki till I played her, she truly does fill the board with her markers unless the opponent tailors specifically to nuke terrain and that makes all her crew amazing at taking objectives. Ototo is a bit of a wet fart, but his ability to set up an extra shadow marker may prove invaluable thanks to how amazing the Crime Bosses and Minako Rei are and how much they depend/enjoy those shadow markers.

Asami I'd also place higher, she can do anything at any given moment, her versatility is just top notch and the Tengu and Yokai are pretty good schemers overall.

Yan Lo is a beast, a bit of a slow starter himself, but his keyword is full of topnotch choices.

McCabe I think is being slept on since he is missing some key pieces, once Desper and friends are out, he will do WORK, specially in areas that allow dual masters.

Shenlong... is a weird one. Shenlong himself is amazing and can do pretty much anything at any given time. It's wonderful to know that you can kick something to death at one point, and if you can't get in, you can be one of the best healers in the game in the next turn. The rest of the crew dies to a stiff breeze though unless you top load the hell out of them with Chi which requires a lot of "self play" which I personally find kind of annoying. Definitely low river monks and Wandering river monks have a place, rest I find more debatable and wonder if he's better filling the list with Versatile models and from other keywords.

Mei Feng I don't personally put much stock on, but our local top player considers her one of the most dangerous masters in Ten Thunders. He does emphasize that Sparks has to be in there and there is some evil to be had combining that with Lone Swordsman...

Nothing to say about Youko nor Lynch, I just don't do them.

Ototo's self-heal is amazing in Corrupted Idols.

[DeleteAccount]

1 hour ago, Yew Arcane said:

Ototo's self-heal is amazing in Corrupted Idols.

But that's not a unique selling point, Samurai, Fuhatsu and Sidir all have Juggernaut and I personally think they bring more to the table. What really makes Ototo be a boss is that extra shadow token since it really helps a lot with the crew synergy. Well that and if you are able to set up your attacks properly to gain Fast on as many activations as possible, in that scenario he becomes amazing, but I don't expect my opponent to let me get away with that too much if he can.

Oh, a gigantic con with Misaki though which makes her risky is how anti-bury tech completely screws her over. So any faction that can product any of that you will probably want to keep her in your bag, which is what's really going to limit her competitive presence.

[LeperColony]

1 minute ago, Razhem said:

But that's not a unique selling point, Samurai, Fuhatsu and Sidir all have Juggernaut and I personally think they bring more to the table.

Well, @Yew Arcane did specifically say "in Corrupted Idols."  You often don't want Samurai and Fuhatsu up near the centerline.  At least not as much as you'd want Ototo up there.  Though Sidir is a different matter.

[gozer]

On 8/26/2019 at 3:17 PM, mattbird said:

Which is the most powerful keyword / master in your opinion? Which the worst? 

My opinion- The top tier:

1. Lynch / Honeypot: Rig the Deck means you know what's coming, and he has the models to make use of it. 

2. Shenlong / Monk: Manipulating your stats when you need to, switching abilities when the game calls for it, gaining focus when you've got to kill things. 

3. Yan Lo / Ancestors: They beat you down, then come back fro more. 

4. McCabe / Wastrels: So evasive, so annoying.

5. Asami / Oni: They can beat you up, they can drop markers, then can summon more when they need 'em, then flicker away before the enemy can kill 'em. 

The lower tier:

6.  Mei Feng / Foundry: So fast*. So killy.* So hard to kill*.   ........  *unless they know you chose Mei and loaded up on anti-armor and scrap marker removal. 

7. Youko / Qui and Gong: I don't know what she does, so she must be bad or people would be talking her up by now.

8. Misaki / Blossoms: The killy master who cannot kill. The killy henchmen who with 2AP. What's the point of these again? 

I can't speak for most of this list as I don't have the experience, but I will say that Honeypot's Rig the Deck is not as impactful as it looks on paper - it would be AMAZING if you could draw then discard. I'm not saying it's bad as it can sometimes advise your action order during an activation, but far too often it offered little to no benefit.

I would call this mid-to-low tier. I love Lynch and he was my first crew getting into M2E but he's not nearly the card shark he used to be.

[Jesy Blue]

6 hours ago, Cursed25 said:

Youko draws no card at all because it's not an enemy model who discard the cards but the players!

 

Youko's Calm Demeanor works only when enemy model discards a card

and 

Zoraida Threads of Fate specifies that it's the players who discard the card

 

So sadly no card draw!  

I was sad when I figured out the wording wouldn't work, then found out it's the same for the Shadow Emissary's Prophecies in Thunder trigger.

[Cursed25]

1 hour ago, gozer said:

I can't speak for most of this list as I don't have the experience, but I will say that Honeypot's Rig the Deck is not as impactful as it looks on paper - it would be AMAZING if you could draw then discard. I'm not saying it's bad as it can sometimes advise your action order during an activation, but far too often it offered little to no benefit.

I would call this mid-to-low tier. I love Lynch and he was my first crew getting into M2E but he's not nearly the card shark he used to be.

rig the deck is just so strong! I don't understand how you could rate it this low! Also your idea of draw/discard would make it way less useful and powerful in my opinion!

[gozer]

15 minutes ago, Cursed25 said:

rig the deck is just so strong! I don't understand how you could rate it this low! Also your idea of draw/discard would make it way less useful and powerful in my opinion!

Let's say you draw 2 low cards. Are you going to put them in your hand and put two high cards on top? There's almost no value in that unless you are going up against a negative flip with your next action (e.g. shooting into engagement or concealment). That way you can guarantee that even with a negative flip you have a high total (since you wouldn't be able to cheat it otherwise). Outside of that situation, I don't see a value in replacing two low cards in your deck with two high cards from your hand.

Let's say you draw 2 high cards. You would reasonably swap those with two lower cards from your hand, right? However, now you have two low cards on the top of your deck and will either need play around those incoming low flips by either intending to cheat (with the high cards you would have flipped anyway), or by taking actions that can utilize those low cards.

Occasionally you might find a suit of a high enough value where you can plan around your next action but those situations don't come up often enough to rate Rig the Deck higher than middling.

As an aside, imagine if Rig the Deck allowed you to draw then discard. Either you're cycling bad cards out of your deck or replacing bad cards in your hand. Unfortunately, this would be insanely OP as "Rig the Deck: +2" would be equivalent in value to a soulstone.

[mattbird]

2 hours ago, gozer said:

Let's say you draw 2 low cards. Are you going to put them in your hand and put two high cards on top?

You place the cards on top with the foreknowledge of what they will let you do. If you need a high card for the attack, you put that on top. If you need a medium card for an unchallenged duel, you put that on top. If you just want to burn bad cards from your hand, you put a high and low on top, focus, then attack. 

[Adran]

9 hours ago, gozer said:

Let's say you draw 2 low cards. Are you going to put them in your hand and put two high cards on top? There's almost no value in that unless you are going up against a negative flip with your next action (e.g. shooting into engagement or concealment). That way you can guarantee that even with a negative flip you have a high total (since you wouldn't be able to cheat it otherwise). Outside of that situation, I don't see a value in replacing two low cards in your deck with two high cards from your hand.

 

The value is that you have effectively "cheated" the flip without it costing you a card in hand. If you are trying to hit a certain trigger then that is amazing. It also allows you some turn planning control by knowing what you are going to get. I've not played with it, so my mind flip flops between great and Ok for its power level.  Some of it I think depends on how much you can use its advantage, and that depends a lot on how you play.

I also wouldn't by default draw 2 good cards and put 2 bad cards back on the deck, unless I don't care about the actions the model is about to do. Or I'm Graves and using lead the way on my own crew, because then I can use up 2 poor to middling cards from the deck at no cost to me.