Marshalls viability

[solkan]

7 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Doesn’t Pine Box cause you to lose an activation if you haven’t activated yet? Or am I thinking of 2e?

That was the M2E version (because buried models didn't activate, the duration was until the Death Marshal's next activation).

With the changes to buried, Pine Box changed to testing on the buried model's activation and no longer potentially steals an activation.

[Hot4Perdita]

2 hours ago, solkan said:

That was the M2E version (because buried models didn't activate, the duration was until the Death Marshal's next activation).

With the changes to buried, Pine Box changed to testing on the buried model's activation and no longer potentially steals an activation.

Wow, ok. Seems like this edition has really watered down everything; and those abilities/ actions that are still good now require resources to pull off, whether it be a TN, discard, etc.

With that, I guess the Pine Box will only be good for getting the Recruiter ranged attack, or taking an already activated model and relocating it a move away.

[Cathaidan]

51 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

With that, I guess the Pine Box will only be good for getting the Recruiter ranged attack, or taking an already activated model and relocating it a move away.

Let's also not forget that The Jury deals 2 dmg to all buried models, and 1 dmg to all models with a summon upgrade, when she activates, too.  And DM have the  build into Pine Boxing that let's them just deal 1 dmg to an already buried model.  DMRs don't have a built in suit, but they do have 2 triggers when they pine box someone; immediately take a  action that targets the same model that receives a to the dmg flip or force the target to discard a card, then you draw 1 and discard 1.

Like I said earlier, I used it to deter my opponents from burying their own models.  Sure, you could bury yourself now, but I have DMs in charge range of your other models and The Jury hasn't activated.  I have also considered using it in other situations.  You're trying to plug the shooting lane with your 50mm, Sz3 thing, but when I charge it and box it with the severe in hand, I choose where in base contact you come out.  (Move it, Snow Storm, I'm shooting the back line!)

[Cronex13]

5 minutes ago, Cathaidan said:

Let's also not forget that The Jury deals 2 dmg to all buried models, and 1 dmg to all models with a summon upgrade, when she activates, too.  And DM have the  build into Pine Boxing that let's them just deal 1 dmg to an already buried model.  DMRs don't have a built in suit, but they do have 2 triggers when they pine box someone; immediately take a  action that targets the same model that receives a to the dmg flip or force the target to discard a card, then you draw 1 and discard 1.

Like I said earlier, I used it to deter my opponents from burying their own models.  Sure, you could bury yourself now, but I have DMs in charge range of your other models and The Jury hasn't activated.  I have also considered using it in other situations.  You're trying to plug the shooting lane with your 50mm, Sz3 thing, but when I charge it and box it with the severe in hand, I choose where in base contact you come out.  (Move it, Snow Storm, I'm shooting the back line!)

I think I misread- did you just suggest charging Rasputinas snow pillar and boxing it, then deploying it elsewhere?

[solkan]

47 minutes ago, Cronex13 said:

I think I misread- did you just suggest charging Rasputinas snow pillar and boxing it, then deploying it elsewhere?

Nah, that’s talking about charging Snow Storm (a Sz3 50mm model of awesome), which among its numerous uses is making ranged attackers sad.  “So I reduce damage by two, no it’s not Armor..”.  

 

[Humphrey]

I felt like Lady J has just two very good henchmen, LLC is better for her now.

The Lone Marshal is just awesome with sh 7, good mv, run and gun and his ability’s to evite getting tied up. I would play him practically always. Domador felt good as a backup healer and he can obey the pale rider. The Steward felt like a great addition to the crew for healing and condition removal and even a DM looked like he could have the potential to transform into a scheme runner, when he gets obeyed and eventually fast. I agree that DMR are surely more viable in a Dashel Crew as they are roughly the same coast as the jury und the marshals tend to spread a lot which makes it hard to benefit from his summoning.

[trikk]

Three imporant things:

You can't use Leeching Strength unless you already have someone buried when you declared Pine Box.

Death Marshals are actually pretty tough because unlike most Df4-5 minions they can't get oneshot by 1 2/4/5 Focused shot

Domadors can't heal DMs because they're undead. 

 

I think Lone Marshal is ok at best. He has Sh7and Run and Gun  but he's still min 2, doesn't have Ride With Me and is quite expensive. Especially if you compare his utility to a Pale Rider.

[Cronex13]

7 hours ago, trikk said:

Three imporant things:

You can't use Leeching Strength unless you already have someone buried when you declared Pine Box.

Death Marshals are actually pretty tough because unlike most Df4-5 minions they can't get oneshot by 1 2/4/5 Focused shot

Domadors can't heal DMs because they're undead. 

 

I think Lone Marshal is ok at best. He has Sh7and Run and Gun  but he's still min 2, doesn't have Ride With Me and is quite expensive. Especially if you compare his utility to a Pale Rider.

Good catch on the Domador, I could have sworn it said undead instead of living on the decay but I was absolutely mistaken.

I do have to disagree with the reading on the DM Leeching Strength trigger, since triggers by default occur after the action has resolved. So you do the attack, the model gets buried and then you get to Target a buried model. That's my read on it as I understand the rules but if I'm wrong, please show me so I don't make a fool of myself on the tabletop.

Seems to me that the Lone Marshall isn't there as a Lady J transport system, he's there as a scheme runner, so his SH7 really helps when he has to fight for a table corner. 

All that in mind, Mounted Guard shouldn't be underestimated as a Lady J transport! Not only do they have ride with me but they also have "I've got your back" which is I think an inch less of total movement for the target but can also have it's time and place. I played a Lucius game where I just walked him a bunch to give Lady J some free movement and then the Scribe would walk and "I've got your back" Lady J to the Frontline. Brutally effective and I'd imagine even more so with a Mounted Guard

[4thstringer]

36 minutes ago, Cronex13 said:

Good catch on the Domador, I could have sworn it said undead instead of living on the decay but I was absolutely mistaken.

I do have to disagree with the reading on the DM Leeching Strength trigger, since triggers by default occur after the action has resolved. So you do the attack, the model gets buried and then you get to Target a buried model. That's my read on it as I understand the rules but if I'm wrong, please show me so I don't make a fool of myself on the tabletop.

Seems to me that the Lone Marshall isn't there as a Lady J transport system, he's there as a scheme runner, so his SH7 really helps when he has to fight for a table corner. 

All that in mind, Mounted Guard shouldn't be underestimated as a Lady J transport! Not only do they have ride with me but they also have "I've got your back" which is I think an inch less of total movement for the target but can also have it's time and place. I played a Lucius game where I just walked him a bunch to give Lady J some free movement and then the Scribe would walk and "I've got your back" Lady J to the Frontline. Brutally effective and I'd imagine even more so with a Mounted Guard

Isn't I've got your back limited to if the model is engaged?

[Nikodemus]

34 minutes ago, Cronex13 said:

I do have to disagree with the reading on the DM Leeching Strength trigger, since triggers by default occur after the action has resolved. So you do the attack, the model gets buried and then you get to Target a buried model. That's my read on it as I understand the rules but if I'm wrong, please show me so I don't make a fool of myself on the tabletop.

"Leeching Strength: Choose a Buried model. The chosen model suffers 1 damage and this model Heals 1."

"Choose a Buried model" is in italics. That means it's a cost. Costs must be paid when a trigger is declared, or it doesn't happen. It's under "Triggers" in the rulebook. PDF page 12.

[4thstringer]

2 minutes ago, Nikodemus said:

"Leeching Strength: Choose a Buried model. The chosen model suffers 1 damage and this model Heals 1."

"Choose a Buried model" is in italics. That means it's a cost. Costs must be paid when a trigger is declared, or it doesn't happen. It's under "Triggers" in the rulebook. PDF page 12.

Designers not thinking through how the rules impact the models, making good abilities OP and bad abilities garbage since 0 A.D.

[Cronex13]

Damn I'm getting schooled today.

As far as Leeching Strength goes, I had steps E and F backwards, which really doesn't make any sense as that would be OP as fuck if that's how it worked. Just needed to pull me head out of my ass.

As far as "I've got you back" you're right, it absolutely is limited to engaged models and I my buddy an apology when next we play.

Thank God for you guys

[4thstringer]

1 minute ago, Cronex13 said:

Damn I'm getting schooled today.

As far as Leeching Strength goes, I had steps E and F backwards, which really doesn't make any sense as that would be OP as fuck if that's how it worked. Just needed to pull me head out of my ass.

As far as "I've got you back" you're right, it absolutely is limited to engaged models and I my buddy an apology when next we play.

Thank God for you guys

New edition growings pains.  We all have em.

[trikk]

Mounted Guard costs 9SS. Pale Rider costs 11. Has better shooting, better melee, better Df, better Wp, more Wds, HtW and potentially 3 aoe bombs.

 

Issue with Lone Marshal is he still can't place 2 markers a turn and has 0" engage.

[Cronex13]

So in regards to the DMs, I guess we can agree that it's a bit harder to get heals off than I initially thought. I still think they make great tarpits. 

As far as scheme runners go, I've got to say I am still in love with the False Witness. Though she is out of keyword, her "lay down 2 scheme markers, discard one at the end of the turn" (I forgot the name of it) ability is batshit insane, and then if the enemy scheme runner doesn't kill her, she's just gonna keep doing scheme shenanigans. That said, she's not particularly fast so that's a thing. 

I think the only time I'd wanna run the Lone Marshall is with Outflank. He doesn't need to worry about scheme markers, he just has to get to a table corner turn 2 and then make it back there turn 5. If it's power ritual or search the ruins then the false witness does wonders. So if we'd like, I have no problem turning this thread into a list building thread? How would you make a good allcomers list with Lady J as the Leader

[4thstringer]

4 hours ago, trikk said:

Mounted Guard costs 9SS. Pale Rider costs 11. Has better shooting, better melee, better Df, better Wp, more Wds, HtW and potentially 3 aoe bombs.

 

Issue with Lone Marshal is he still can't place 2 markers a turn and has 0" engage.

0" engage is the first warning to me that a model might not be good.   Lone marshall has a unique way of dealing with it, but in general as soon as I see that I think twice.

[Hot4Perdita]

6 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

"Leeching Strength: Choose a Buried model. The chosen model suffers 1 damage and this model Heals 1."

"Choose a Buried model" is in italics. That means it's a cost. Costs must be paid when a trigger is declared, or it doesn't happen. It's under "Triggers" in the rulebook. PDF page 12.

You’re reading into that incorrectly I believe. “Choose a buried model”, though italicized, is not considered a “cost”. Costs are not the only items that can be italicized. Costs are things like Discard a Card, Spend a Soulstone, etc. that require you to spend, take damage, or require some sort of resource. If you read further, you will see this(copied from rules):

 

Special Restrictions
In addition to costs, special restrictions are also written in italics and restrict the Trigger in some way, such as limiting the Trigger so that it may only be declared if the target is an enemy model.

 

”Choose a buried model” is considered a Special Restriction, not a cost. Read further, and under Trigger Timing, you will see that “Choose a buried model” will occur after resolving the Pine Box action (copied from rules):

 

“If a Trigger does not list a timing, it is treated as an After succeeding Trigger.”

At that point, if you succeed with Pine Box, the enemy model is buried and can be the target of the trigger.

Hope that helps.

[Trample]

3 hours ago, Hot4Perdita said:

You’re reading into that incorrectly I believe. “Choose a buried model”, though italicized, is not considered a “cost”. Costs are not the only items that can be italicized. Costs are things like Discard a Card, Spend a Soulstone, etc. that require you to spend, take damage, or require some sort of resource. If you read further, you will see this(copied from rules):

 

Special Restrictions
In addition to costs, special restrictions are also written in italics and restrict the Trigger in some way, such as limiting the Trigger so that it may only be declared if the target is an enemy model.

 

”Choose a buried model” is considered a Special Restriction, not a cost. Read further, and under Trigger Timing, you will see that “Choose a buried model” will occur after resolving the Pine Box action (copied from rules):

 

“If a Trigger does not list a timing, it is treated as an After succeeding Trigger.”

At that point, if you succeed with Pine Box, the enemy model is buried and can be the target of the trigger.

Hope that helps.

This interpretation sure makes sense for this particular model and case. 

[solkan]

4 hours ago, Hot4Perdita said:

You’re reading into that incorrectly I believe. “Choose a buried model”, though italicized, is not considered a “cost”. Costs are not the only items that can be italicized. Costs are things like Discard a Card, Spend a Soulstone, etc. that require you to spend, take damage, or require some sort of resource. If you read further, you will see this(copied from rules):

 

Special Restrictions
In addition to costs, special restrictions are also written in italics and restrict the Trigger in some way, such as limiting the Trigger so that it may only be declared if the target is an enemy model.

 

”Choose a buried model” is considered a Special Restriction, not a cost. Read further, and under Trigger Timing, you will see that “Choose a buried model” will occur after resolving the Pine Box action (copied from rules):

 

“If a Trigger does not list a timing, it is treated as an After succeeding Trigger.”

At that point, if you succeed with Pine Box, the enemy model is buried and can be the target of the trigger.

Hope that helps.

That doesn’t work, either.  Special restrictions are relevant to when the trigger is declared.

When you declare the trigger, if the first Pine Box of the turn, there’s no one to satisfy “Choose a Buried model.”

Remember that the trigger is declared before, and then resolved after, the Pine Box results.

You’re trying to claim that the special restriction doesn’t apply until the trigger effect is resolved.  Special Restrictions says that they apply to declaration, for both actions and triggers.

The fact that the target becomes a legal choice after the fact doesn’t make it legal.

—-

The Only way to get that trigger to work how people want it to work—that you can damage/heal off of the model you just buried—is to state that you think the italics are in error, and state that you think “Choose a Buried model.” is intended to be part of the body of the trigger.

It is entirely possible that it is an error, and arguing that it is a mistake is a fair argument.  But to get there you have to admit that the italics applies before the target is buried, when it isn’t a legal choice.

 

[Hot4Perdita]

51 minutes ago, solkan said:

That doesn’t work, either.  Special restrictions are relevant to when the trigger is declared.

When you declare the trigger, if the first Pine Box of the turn, there’s no one to satisfy “Choose a Buried model.”

Remember that the trigger is declared before, and then resolved after, the Pine Box results.

You’re trying to claim that the special restriction doesn’t apply until the trigger effect is resolved.  Special Restrictions says that they apply to declaration, for both actions and triggers.

The fact that the target becomes a legal choice after the fact doesn’t make it legal.

—-

The Only way to get that trigger to work how people want it to work—that you can damage/heal off of the model you just buried—is to state that you think the italics are in error, and state that you think “Choose a Buried model.” is intended to be part of the body of the trigger.

It is entirely possible that it is an error, and arguing that it is a mistake is a fair argument.  But to get there you have to admit that the italics applies before the target is buried, when it isn’t a legal choice.

 

Again, it says:

“If a Trigger does not list a timing, it is treated as an After succeeding Trigger.”

That states is happens after and if the trigger is successful. So, if successful, the trigger will be successful because the target will be buried. The Leeching trigger is “After Succeeding” because the target must be buried for it to succeed. Again, read the rule for trigger  timing.

 

[Hot4Perdita]

7 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

 

Entered in Error

[trikk]

3 hours ago, Hot4Perdita said:

Again, it says:

“If a Trigger does not list a timing, it is treated as an After succeeding Trigger.”

That states is happens after and if the trigger is successful. So, if successful, the trigger will be successful because the target will be buried. The Leeching trigger is “After Succeeding” because the target must be buried for it to succeed. Again, read the rule for trigger  timing.

 

But you choose a buried model when declaring the trigger. And you have no one Buried. It's a cost because if you won't choose one, the trigger doesn't work which is similar to "discard a card"

[Hot4Perdita]

48 minutes ago, trikk said:

But you choose a buried model when declaring the trigger. And you have no one Buried. It's a cost because if you won't choose one, the trigger doesn't work which is similar to "discard a card"

The rule book states that the only requirement when declaring a trigger is to meet the cost. The only “cost” for the Leeching trigger is a Crow, which is baked in. The “Choose a buried model” is not a cost, but a special restriction, which does not apply until after the trigger goes off, therefore is not required to be met when declared. It should go like this:

1. Declare Pine Box action

2. Flip card

3. Compute total and declare Leeching trigger with built in crow

4. After any cheating, if duel is successful, the the trigger is resolved (“after succeeding”).

5. Pick a buried model. Apply the effects of the Leeching trigger to the chosen buried model.

Check page 23 in rule book as well. Step 6 on page 23 reinforces what I am saying. 

[trikk]

34 minutes ago, Hot4Perdita said:

The rule book states that the only requirement when declaring a trigger is to meet the cost. The only “cost” for the Leeching trigger is a Crow, which is baked in. The “Choose a buried model” is not a cost, but a special restriction, which does not apply until after the trigger goes off, therefore is not required to be met when declared. It should go like this:

1. Declare Pine Box action

2. Flip card

3. Compute total and declare Leeching trigger with built in crow

4. After any cheating, if duel is successful, the the trigger is resolved (“after succeeding”).

5. Pick a buried model. Apply the effects of the Leeching trigger to the chosen buried model.

Check page 23 in rule book as well. Step 6 on page 23 reinforces what I am saying. 

Unfortunately no.

"Choose a buried model" is not a special restriction. A special restriction is "Enemy only" "Non-master" "Other friendly model". They don't require you to do anything.  They just restrict when can you use this action.

"Choose a buried model" is a cost. Like "Discard a card". "Discard a power token". It's a requirement because you have to do it after you declare the trigger to resolve its effect.

The crow is not a "cost" because it's not in italics. Cost is a game term.

[Hot4Perdita]

9 minutes ago, trikk said:

Unfortunately no.

"Choose a buried model" is not a special restriction. A special restriction is "Enemy only" "Non-master" "Other friendly model". They don't require you to do anything.  They just restrict when can you use this action.

"Choose a buried model" is a cost. Like "Discard a card". "Discard a power token". It's a requirement because you have to do it after you declare the trigger to resolve its effect.

The crow is not a "cost" because it's not in italics. Cost is a game term.

Well, I guess we will have to disagree then. From the way I read the rules, the “Choose a buried model” term does not have to be met until the trigger goes off. Wyrd will need to put out an faq for this since it seems to create confusion.