Yan Lo Crew - Need advice

[Plaag]

2 hours ago, dannydb said:

Yanlo is a very versatile master with lots of diffrent play styles 

play what works for you

but the best way to play him is not so empty style

[dannydb]

1 minute ago, Plaag said:

but the best way to play him is not so empty style

the best way to play him is the way that suits the player

 

not every play style/master works for everyone

[hydranixx]

On 10/10/2020 at 4:03 AM, Plaag said:

but the best way to play him is not so empty style

"the best way"

 

This is Malifaux, not 40k. There's more than one way to use models in Malifaux.

[Plaag]

2 hours ago, hydranixx said:

"the best way"

 

This is Malifaux, not 40k. There's more than one way to use models in Malifaux.

no

[Adran]

1 minute ago, Plaag said:

no

I'm going to disagree because you simplify it too much. There is not 1 best way to play anything not least because there are different schemes and strategies and what is best  crew to hire/ way to play for one is not always best for another. (And player style is huge. Even if there was a "best" crew, if I don't play that way I will get better results with a crew that fits the way I play. )

[Graf]

On 10/9/2020 at 5:03 PM, Plaag said:

not so empty style

And I still wonder about what "empty style" is supposed to mean... 🤔

[Adran]

6 minutes ago, Graf said:

And I still wonder about what "empty style" is supposed to mean... 🤔

I assume "not so empty" is a vassel username, but I don't know for certain. 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I assume "not so empty" is a vassel username, but I don't know for certain. 

yes, look for games in wvc topic

[Scoffer]

12 minutes ago, Plaag said:

yes, look for games in wvc topic

Especially the last one, that he lost 1:7 after his engine failed to start turn one. It's a great illustration for "the only true way to play".

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Scoffer said:

Especially the last one, that he lost 1:7 after his engine failed to start turn one. It's a great illustration for "the only true way to play".

its funny to hear from u, who didnt pass all the games

[Scoffer]

20 minutes ago, Plaag said:

its funny to hear from u, who didnt pass all the games

You wanted to say "from you who defeated that allmighty yan lo list on the last tournament". 

 

Sorry for this little chat, guys. Vladimir "not so empty" is a very good player and his Yan Lo crew is a hell to deal with, but I believe that in Malifaux a strong master can be played in several different ways. 

[Plaag]

1 hour ago, Scoffer said:

You wanted to say "from you who defeated that allmighty yan lo list on the last tournament". 

 

Sorry for this little chat, guys. Vladimir "not so empty" is a very good player and his Yan Lo crew is a hell to deal with, but I believe that in Malifaux a strong master can be played in several different ways. 

sometimes people find combos that are very brutal and it become the best way to play that master

[Graf]

That's a "Why not both?" situation, if I've ever seen one...

[ShinChan]

 

3 hours ago, Plaag said:

sometimes people find combos that are very brutal and it become the best way to play that master

That there are combos that are really good, doesn't mean that's the way to play it. In Malifaux, the game state changes a lot after a single activation and you can't always play the same without taking into account a lot of factors, like terrain, strategy and schemes and the crew you're facing it. 

Are there powerful combos? For sure, and those should be taken into account whrn planning your list and when playing, but you need to adapt to tge circumstances. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Out of curiosity, what is this combo?

[Whut]

I just took a look - here is the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShQb08ZXMeU&feature=emb_logo
 

• The combo is this:
• Take Chiaki, Toshiro, Gokudo, Anna, Izamu
• Chiaki activates, Splits Izamu's Soul, draws a card
• Izamu Activates, Kill Chiaki, give Reliquary to Yan Lo, drop corpse marker
• Toshiro activates, (kill Chiaki if Izamu Failed) Summons off of Chiaki's Corpse, gives someone Focus (Req 10 crow)
• Anna Activates, blows up Toshiro, draw a card, drop corpse marker, give Reliquary to Gokudo (Req 4)
• Yan Lo Activates...
• Yan Lo replaces Gokudo with Toshiro, Gokudo's ability brings back a new Gokudo, draws 2 cards
• Yan Lo bonus action to give Chiaki's Reliquary to the new Gokudo  (Req 6 Tome)
• Yan Lo replaces new Gokudo with Chiaki, new Gokudo's ability brings back a new new Gokudo, draws 2 cards
• New Toshiro Activates, Summons off of his own Corpse, gives someone Focus, walks (Req 10 Crow)
• New Chiaki activates, Split Soul something, draw a card again

 

• Spoils are 2 Ashigaru and 2 Split Souls on turn 1 (and the final Gokudo Summon can be wherever you want, kinda a "teleport")
• Costs are nothing outside of SS used for Suits (max 3 SS), loss of positioning T1, and having to take Anna OOK (who is a great model anyway)
• Slight additional downside is that with these 5 models, you only have 8ss remaining to pick up any tech choice or schemer

 

It's... uhhh... it's pretty insane. My synergy/value boner is throbbing but my game balance boner is limp.

The only downside is that Black Jokering Anna's bonus action stops the combo and leaves you with only 1 Ashigaru, and Black Jokering Yan Lo's bonus action can leave you without a Chiaki at all until the following turn, but the chances of this are slim and can even be mitigated entirely if you take The Whisper.

 

[Adran]

I guess there is also the risk that the gukado might be killed while holding Toshiros relequry. It's probably not that hard to keep it safe since its hard to kill, but the further back it has to hide, the more tempo it costs you. 

[Whut]

37 minutes ago, Whut said:

I just took a look - here is the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShQb08ZXMeU&feature=emb_logo
 

• The combo is this:
• Take Chiaki, Toshiro, Gokudo, Anna, Izamu
• Chiaki activates, Splits Izamu's Soul, draws a card
• Izamu Activates, Kill Chiaki, give Reliquary to Yan Lo, drop corpse marker
• Toshiro activates, (kill Chiaki if Izamu Failed) Summons off of Chiaki's Corpse, gives someone Focus (Req 10 crow)
• Anna Activates, blows up Toshiro, draw a card, drop corpse marker, give Reliquary to Gokudo (Req 4)
• Yan Lo Activates...
• Yan Lo replaces Gokudo with Toshiro, Gokudo's ability brings back a new Gokudo, draws 2 cards
• Yan Lo bonus action to give Chiaki's Reliquary to the new Gokudo  (Req 6 Tome)
• Yan Lo replaces new Gokudo with Chiaki, new Gokudo's ability brings back a new new Gokudo, draws 2 cards
• New Toshiro Activates, Summons off of his own Corpse, gives someone Focus, walks (Req 10 Crow)
• New Chiaki activates, Split Soul something, draw a card again

 

• Spoils are 2 Ashigaru and 2 Split Souls on turn 1 (and the final Gokudo Summon can be wherever you want, kinda a "teleport")
• Costs are nothing outside of SS used for Suits (max 3 SS), loss of positioning T1, and having to take Anna OOK (who is a great model anyway)
• Slight additional downside is that with these 5 models, you only have 8ss remaining to pick up any tech choice or schemer

 

It's... uhhh... it's pretty insane. My synergy/value boner is throbbing but my game balance boner is limp.

The only downside is that Black Jokering Anna's bonus action stops the combo and leaves you with only 1 Ashigaru, and Black Jokering Yan Lo's bonus action can leave you without a Chiaki at all until the following turn, but the chances of this are slim and can even be mitigated entirely if you take The Whisper.

 

Other quite INSANE interactions:

1) In Recover Evidence, Intel Tokens on Chiaki and Toshiro get dropped in your deployment zone (and on the Gokudo if you have enough extra actions to take it down to 1 Wd), making them very hard to reach. But your crew only has 5 viable models to place tokens on (6 if you take another model with the last 8 ss) meaning you're probably leaving 2-3 strategy markers in your deployment zone behind your Undead Horde

2) Your opponent can't Take Prisoner or Vendetta on Chiaki and Toshiro (Vendetta is 1 point max)

3) You can cheat Vendetta and Catch & Release on the Gokudo-Turned-Toshiro

On the other hand, don't play this against Colette. You're going to kill Toshiro and Chiaki and suddenly Colette walk, walk, and *pop* Yan Lo is on the enemy half of the table

 

Long story short, have fun for the next 2-6 months until Rebuild Corpus is Eratta'd to require at least 2-3 Ascendant upgrades

[Maniacal_cackle]

29 minutes ago, Whut said:

I just took a look - here is the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShQb08ZXMeU&feature=emb_logo
 

• The combo is this:
• Take Chiaki, Toshiro, Gokudo, Anna
• Chiaki activates, Splits Izamu's Soul, draws a card
• Izamu Activates, Kill Chiaki, give Reliquary to Yan Lo, drop corpse marker
• Toshiro activates, Summons off of Chiaki's Corpse, gives someone Focus, walks (Req 10 crow)
• Anna Activates, blows up Toshiro, draw a card, drop corpse marker, give Reliquary to Gokudo (Req 4)
• Yan Lo Activates...
• Yan Lo replaces Gokudo with Toshiro, Gokudo's ability brings back a new Gokudo, draws 2 cards
• Yan Lo bonus action to give Chiaki's Reliquary to the new Gokudo  (Req 6 Tome)
• Yan Lo replaces new Gokudo with Chiaki, new Gokudo's ability brings back a new new Gokudo, draws 2 cards
• New Toshiro Activates, Summons off of his own Corpse, gives someone Focus, walks (Req 10 Crow)
• New Chiaki activates, Split Soul something, draw a card again

 

• Spoils are 2 Ashigaru and 2 Split Souls on turn 1 (and the final Gokudo Summon can be wherever you want, kinda a "teleport")
• Costs are nothing outside of SS used for Suits (max 3 SS)

 

It's... uhhh... it's pretty insane. My synergy/value boner is throbbing but my game balance boner is limp.

The only downside is that Black Jokering Anna's bonus action stops the combo and leaves you with only 1 Ashigaru, and Black Jokering Yan Lo's bonus action can leave you without a Chiaki at all until the following turn, but the chances of this are slim and can even be mitigated entirely if you take The Whisper.

 

This seems pretty awesome! Definitely will put it on my 'to attempt' list at some point. I haven't learned to play Yan Lo yet, so will be a while. However, I think it is worth emphasising there are some pretty big costs/downsides:

• TONS of actions. Most of his models don't seem to leave the deployment zone turn 1. I can't imagine doing that (but I tend to favour very mobile, very aggressive strategies).
• Overall, costs lots of tempo (as Adran points out as I am typing this).
• Requires some serious gas from your hand (two 10+s to summon Ashigaru? Particularly since the card draw doesn't happen until halfway through the combo).
  • The ability to use soulstones for suits helps of course
• If you're wanting a summoning value engine, why not just take Kirai? (Although granted, she probably needs a nerf OOK - she shouldn't be able to Blood and Wind twice in a turn OOK).
• Vulnerable to disruption - I don't see how to disrupt it yet, but I'm sure more experienced players than I could throw a wrench in those plans (I imagine Plaag you must have some serious presto-chango opportunities there with Colette).
• Possibly other things.

Maybe I'm just undervaluing having those extra reliquaries floating around. As I said, I'll need to attempt it/practice it some day on both sides. After the core box comes out, probably!

[Whut]

39 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

This seems pretty awesome! Definitely will put it on my 'to attempt' list at some point. I haven't learned to play Yan Lo yet, so will be a while. However, I think it is worth emphasising there are some pretty big costs/downsides:

• TONS of actions. Most of his models don't seem to leave the deployment zone turn 1. I can't imagine doing that (but I tend to favour very mobile, very aggressive strategies).
• Overall, costs lots of tempo (as Adran points out as I am typing this).
• Requires some serious gas from your hand (two 10+s to summon Ashigaru? Particularly since the card draw doesn't happen until halfway through the combo).
  • The ability to use soulstones for suits helps of course
• If you're wanting a summoning value engine, why not just take Kirai? (Although granted, she probably needs a nerf OOK - she shouldn't be able to Blood and Wind twice in a turn OOK).
• Vulnerable to disruption - I don't see how to disrupt it yet, but I'm sure more experienced players than I could throw a wrench in those plans (I imagine Plaag you must have some serious presto-chango opportunities there with Colette).
• Possibly other things.

Maybe I'm just undervaluing having those extra reliquaries floating around. As I said, I'll need to attempt it/practice it some day on both sides. After the core box comes out, probably!

In theory, it's not even that slow.

Yan Lo has a third action to Growing Power to give nearly the entire crew a 2" push, and the second Chiaki walks to catch up to the bulk of the crew and uses Spirit Flute to give the entire crew a 3" move (plus the first Chiaki also uses Spirit Flute). The soul porter still gets 2x Empower Ancestor (with all that card draw, you'll easily be able to guarantee both 4's) for 2 extra Mv" moves.

You should really take a closer look at Ashigaru, because although they're technically 5ss models, they easily pull the weight of a 7ss model I would say. They have a 2" engagement range, the extended reach ability, an average attack but with two of the best damage triggers in the game, and 5 Wds with Armor 1, H2K, and a built in bonus action heal that can't fail if you target an ally. And they get plus flips from Toshiro. They're summoned with 3 wounds, but can immediately heal and Toshiro can also bonus action them T1 if you'd like. Typically, a 7ss model is at risk of dying in 2 hits, but will often take 3. Ashigaru almost guarantee they'll take a minimum of 3 hits to die, plus they can't be charged, plus if they keep healing above H2K they can live indefinitely.

Two reliquaries are phenomenal if Chiaki can split her own soul. I'm not sure if she can - is she considered in the range of her own (Pulse)4? Otherwise it's just a guarantee to get Izamu's amazing Reliquary onto someone, and Toshiro's is nice to have on someone (probably Izamu) to gain the benefits of Flesh Ascendant, Instill Youth, and Yan Lo's Demise, if that comes up.

The chances of drawing a 10+ with your first 7 cards (6+Chiaki) is 93%, or 97% if you stone for 2 cards. After all the shenanigans, you drew another 6 cards. The chances of not having 2x 10+s is tiny.

Disruption should only be worrying in the case of Colette, I think. Normal Lures aren't scary - Yan Lo has a walk of 4 and can easily Paths himself back into place with his extra AP. In the case of something like a Nekima and 2 Matures smashing into you T1, that's something that'll have to be play tested, it could go either way.

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, Whut said:

You should really take a closer look at Ashigaru, because although they're technically 5ss models, they easily pull the weight of a 7ss model I would say.

Oh, I know. I use Toshiro OOK sometimes, and once even pulled an Ashigaru OOK to blunt an alpha strike plan when I couldn't take Toshiro xD They're just not on the same level as summoning say Goryo + Ikiryo or even Ikiryo + Drowned IMO.

6 minutes ago, Whut said:

Two reliquaries are phenomenal if Chiaki can split her own soul. I'm not sure if she can - is she considered in the range of her own (Pulse)4? Otherwise it's just a guarantee to get Izamu's amazing Reliquary onto someone, and Toshiro's is nice to have on someone (probably Izamu) to gain the benefits of Flesh Ascendant, Instill Youth, and Yan Lo's Demise, if that comes up.

You're not in range of your own pulses, no. Just your own auras.

But yeah, can see how they're valuable! Certainly when I played her in HH, I was super stoked to have the extra reliquary.

7 minutes ago, Whut said:

The chances of drawing a 10+ with your first 7 cards (6+Chiaki) is 93%, or 97% if you stone for 2 cards. After all the shenanigans, you drew another 6 cards. The chances of not having 2x 10+s is tiny.

It's easy to get the cards, I'm just super stingy with good cards (preferring to use them for duels). I'm hesitant to include Carrion Emissary in my Reva crews for example, because I don't want to sacrifice an 8 from hand (plus Grave Golem is just so good at filling the same role for Reva).

That said, if there's any turn where you can afford to spare high cards, it is turn 1. So can definitely see the value in a few extra summons turn 1.

8 minutes ago, Whut said:

Disruption should only be worrying in the case of Colette, I think. Normal Lures aren't scary - Yan Lo has a walk of 4 and can easily Paths himself back into place with his extra AP. In the case of something like a Nekima and 2 Matures smashing into you T1, that's something that'll have to be play tested, it could go either way.

Good point that Yan Lo can get himself back easily! An alpha strike is definitely something I'd be worried about - except Ashigaru can Take The Hit. And I suppose that could stop even Colette!

Definitely does seem strong! I'll see if I can watch the rest of the game - I'm curious how he goes about handling things like Izamu's glacial slowness.

[Whut]

55 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh, I know. I use Toshiro OOK sometimes, and once even pulled an Ashigaru OOK to blunt an alpha strike plan when I couldn't take Toshiro xD They're just not on the same level as summoning say Goryo + Ikiryo or even Ikiryo + Drowned IMO.

I struggle with this consideration myself, as well. I LOVE Toshiro and want to take him + Emissary or him + Gravedigger often, but find myself considering it's probably better just to take Kirai. Most of the time, the decision falls down to more flexible summoning vs the +flip aura, but even so I think Kirai comes out on top more often than not. It's just a problem with Malifaux allowing double master, really.

In this crew the contest is in Toshiro's favor, I believe. Yan Lo being able to draw 6 cards T1, the retainer-only pushes, re-summon Toshiro later in the game if he dies, utilizing Toshiro's Reliquary, some of the bonkers interactions with Strat and Schemes I mentioned above. Plus you have Anna and all of her disruption and damage, not a silly gravedigger who does nothing but drop corpses all game

At worst I think Kirai and Toshiro-Anna are equal choices in this crew, and if it truly is an equal choice I'd rather play Toshiro if only so not EVERY crew I run is either Kirai or has Kirai tacked on.

[Whut]

15 hours ago, Scoffer said:

Especially the last one, that he lost 1:7 after his engine failed to start turn one. It's a great illustration for "the only true way to play".

So, after viewing that video, I can confirm that the loss was NOT because the "engine failed to start turn one."
It's true the engine didn't work perfectly, NotSoEmpty was unlucky enough to hit that 3% chance of "no 10+ in hand" on turn 1, meaning he was only able to summon 1 ashigaru.

However the loss of the game primarily came from Turns 2 & 3 where NotSoEmpty made several key mistakes:
1) Positioning improperly and then blowing up Toshiro, unable to bring him back (this effectively made NSE play 10-15 stones down if you include the future value of Ashigaru)

2) A slight activation order mistake, preventing him from touching the strategy marker at the end of Turn 2, putting him behind.

3) Not "Take the Hit"ing when Izamu got shot, getting him pulled into range of Rami and subsequently killed.

4) Playing too defensively, focusing too much on the engine and hiding from gunfire for 2 whole turns instead of pressuring the gunline+support crew which he could easily out-combat if he closed the gap. In the middle of Turn 2, there was maybe 1 model outside of his deployment zone and he spent Izamu's entire Turn 2 just to kill Chiaki a second time.

It's unfortunate, because NotSoEmpty made quite a few great moves during that game as well. Towards the mid-late game YanLo got up and running and he finally entered into close combat and started to win back some ground, but the few mistakes he made early on just made that gap too large to close. I felt really bad because you could hear in his voice that he realized this and started to beat himself up
 

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Whut said:

4) Playing too defensively, focusing too much on the engine and hiding from gunfire for 2 whole turns instead of pressuring the gunline+support crew which he could easily out-combat if he closed the gap.

I think this is one of my concerns about the game plan overall. Turn one ends up being quite defensive, so you're not necessarily well set up for turns 2/3. Of course, Yan Lo is meant to be a late game powerhouse, so maybe this is the plan.

4 minutes ago, Whut said:

It's unfortunate, because NotSoEmpty made quite a few great moves during that game as well. Towards the mid-late game YanLo got up and running and he finally entered into close combat and started to win back some ground, but the few mistakes he made early on just made that gap too large to close. I felt really bad because you could hear in his voice that he realized this and started to beat himself up

Yeah, he says at the end he is quite burnt out on the game I think. Must have been intense playing so many games!

Both players seemed like great people to play against though.

[Plaag]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

This seems pretty awesome! Definitely will put it on my 'to attempt' list at some point. I haven't learned to play Yan Lo yet, so will be a while. However, I think it is worth emphasising there are some pretty big costs/downsides:

• TONS of actions. Most of his models don't seem to leave the deployment zone turn 1. I can't imagine doing that (but I tend to favour very mobile, very aggressive strategies).
• Overall, costs lots of tempo (as Adran points out as I am typing this).
• Requires some serious gas from your hand (two 10+s to summon Ashigaru? Particularly since the card draw doesn't happen until halfway through the combo).
  • The ability to use soulstones for suits helps of course
• If you're wanting a summoning value engine, why not just take Kirai? (Although granted, she probably needs a nerf OOK - she shouldn't be able to Blood and Wind twice in a turn OOK).
• Vulnerable to disruption - I don't see how to disrupt it yet, but I'm sure more experienced players than I could throw a wrench in those plans (I imagine Plaag you must have some serious presto-chango opportunities there with Colette).
• Possibly other things.

Maybe I'm just undervaluing having those extra reliquaries floating around. As I said, I'll need to attempt it/practice it some day on both sides. After the core box comes out, probably!

they can be with this combo on a centre line 1 turn because of chiaki and yan lo and its hard to do something with this even with colette because of take the hit from ashigaru; also u draw 6 cards 1 turn that helps to do all the things