Inhuman Physiology and Glimpse the Void

[Kharnage]

Inhuman Physiology: Enemy models cannot Cheat Fate when targeted by this model's Attack Actions.

So how far does the rabbit hole go? If he Mimics Jury's Ancient Words, can they not cheat the Glimpse the Void Wp duel because it's part of his attack action? 

[solkan]

Looking at the timing, as far as I can tell there's only one (or two) duels performed in Step 4, depending on whether the Action uses a Simple Duel or an Opposed Duel.  And that what Inhuman Physiology would apply to.

The duel caused by Terrifying happens during Step 3, because Terrifying is specified:

"After an enemy model targets this model with an Attack Action, the enemy model must pass a TN11 Wp duel or the Action fails."

The M2E rulebook contains a nice reminder that that's the step during which Terror Duels are resolved, but the combat example with Basse thankfully confirms that the Terrifying duel still happens immediately upon declaration.

Why does Step 4 say "Duels", plural?

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If a duel doesn’t have a Resist stat, it is a simple duel.

If a duel has a Resist stat, then it is an opposed duel. Opposed duels involve two different models each making a duel and then comparing their final duel totals to determine a victor.

And that's also why Combat Finesse says "the Attacking model's duel".

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Combat Finesse:  When this model is target with a Action, the Attacking model's duel cannot be cheated.

In the opposed duel, the attacker doesn't get to cheat fate.  It's not stopping the defender cheating its duel.

[Adran]

I would say yes. As far as I can see you can't cheat during the attack action if it targets you.

According to page 12 Action triggers are subject to all game effect that affect the action.

 

[Ming]

Well, that's strange logic. E.g. if a model has both Terrifying and Combat Finesse, you can't cheat Horror duel when targeting the model with a melee attack?

[Adran]

1 hour ago, Ming said:

Well, that's strange logic. E.g. if a model has both Terrifying and Combat Finesse, you can't cheat Horror duel when targeting the model with a melee attack?

I hadn't thought of that, but you might be right. there is a little more strangeness in the language over this one, but the attacking models duel can't be cheated. (I can see a more solid argument that this referes to only the opposed duel, but its not completely specified).

[Kharnage]

2 hours ago, Ming said:

Well, that's strange logic. E.g. if a model has both Terrifying and Combat Finesse, you can't cheat Horror duel when targeting the model with a melee attack?

You mean there might actually be a reason to take Barbaros as a leader now? For those Mature Nephilim with Servant of Dark Powers? Hmmmm....
Though combat finesse does refer to a singular "duel". Inhuman Physiology is less clear. Either way, FAQ for sure!

[Ming]

1 hour ago, Kharnage said:

You mean there might actually be a reason to take Barbaros as a leader now? For those Mature Nephilim with Servant of Dark Powers? Hmmmm....
Though combat finesse does refer to a singular "duel". Inhuman Physiology is less clear. Either way, FAQ for sure!

I think, that Inhuman Physiology and Combat Finesse only affect the initial opposed duel, not the Horror or Trigger duels.

Regarding Barbaros as leader, I suggest taking two shamans that give the entire crew lots of Focused round 1 and later grow into mature ones.

[Kharnage]

1 hour ago, Ming said:

Regarding Barbaros as leader, I suggest taking two shamans that give the entire crew lots of Focused round 1 and later grow into mature ones.

Being quite familiar with the double-shaman razzle-dazzle, nothing stops me from having Nekima, a much more capable leader, as the master while I do this. Ml 7 3/5/6 is just a more solid track to give focused to. Or Lilith. Or hell, Hayreddin. 

[Jesy Blue]

.... unless you're playing Outcasts.

[Maniacal_cackle]

So listing a few relevant rules here...

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If a Trigger does not list a timing, it is treated as an After succeeding Trigger.

After succeeding: These Triggers happen after the Action is complete, but only if the model declaring the Trigger was successful in the duel and is still in play. If the Trigger has a target and that target is no longer in play, the Trigger has no effect.

Jury's ancient words/glimpse the void:

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Tomes: Enemy only. Target must pass a TN 14 Wp duel or it is Buried. If the target is Buried by this Trigger, at the start of its Activation, Unbury it within 1" of an enemy model.

I'd treat this as an 'after succeeding' trigger. The TN 14 WP duel happens after the attack action is complete (unless there's a page 34 issue that I missed?), so the window for it being part of the attack action is closed in my view.

NOTE: If you accept this interpretation, it also has implications for any after succeeding damage triggers potentially, depending on phrasing. There might be a whole can of worms there.

[Maniacal_cackle]

The combat finesse/terrifying issue is an interesting one, as that one does seem to get wonky:

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Combat finesse: When this model is targeted with a (melee) Action, the Attacking model's duel cannot be Cheated.

Terrifying: After an enemy model targets this model with an Attack Action, the enemy model must pass a TN X Wp duel or the Action fails.

I think it's likely intended that these don't work together, but from reading it I can definitely see an argument that they would work together to make an extremely hard to hit model. There is probably a reason most models don't come stacked with several abilities like this together. Though I think "duel" singular signals intent that it just means one duel in particular, so if there is a model with both abilities, I wouldn't be surprised if they FAQed/errate-ed it to work so they don't interact.

[trikk]

19 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I'd treat this as an 'after succeeding' trigger. The TN 14 WP duel happens after the attack action is complete (unless there's a page 34 issue that I missed?), so the window for it being part of the attack action is closed in my view.

It's 2f which is still part of "Taking an action".

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 minutes ago, trikk said:

It's 2f which is still part of "Taking an action".

Ah, damn, good point.

Relevant rules:

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Action Triggers are tied to specific Actions and can only be used with that Action. They are found below an Action’s effect and are subject to all game effects that affect the Action (such as Incorporeal or + flips to damage).

And page 23 (resolving actions) would seem to indicate that it is definitely still part of the attack action, and so whatever the intention, definitely open to be interpreted that you can indeed deny the cheat on the trigger.

[Calriel]

I would like to

   a) help if I can, and

   b) learn from the discussion

but when you don't post the cards, the actual wording of the effect or even the name of the models in question, it becomes very hard.

[Tors]

The rule texts are posted several times above...

Cards are Agent 46, mature nephilim (combat finess) and every terrifying model.

[santaclaws01]

8 hours ago, Calriel said:

I would like to

   a) help if I can, and

   b) learn from the discussion

but when you don't post the cards, the actual wording of the effect or even the name of the models in question, it becomes very hard.

The actually relevant effect being questioned is posted.

[Adran]

The original question is the interaction between inhuman physiology and glimpse the void. ( a trigger) Both are written in the thread, ( although not together) but you can see them on agent 46 and the Jury ( as well as other places).