Foundry in 10 Thunders

[frumpypigskin]

Hi all,

I wanted to ask folk about Thier experiences taking MEI as 10 Thunders. Generally I've leant towards taking her with Arcanists due to a couple of the upgrades and versatile robots working well with her team. 

 

I'm just recently excited by the prospect or branching into 10 thunders more and want to know why folk take her, what Schemes and strats are better when she's orange instead of blue.

First blush she has fewer robots but more access to high mobility and focus.

But, My main reason for excitement is I want to make her work for Idols. I'm worried about the low HP count of armour 2 models and Arcanist healing seems like it can't keep up or isn't resilient enough. 

I'm especially excited by the prospect of Minako Rei summoning scheme runers or corrupted idol fodder with the chance of going ham with a Wanyudo If the opponent is careless about who and when they try to take Rei down. Is Rei as strong as she seems or is she too easy to shoot down?

For added cheese you could take Sparks as well putting bombs into sacrificial katashiro who can charge with blade rush, +flicker attack, leap, made to kill attack, + flicker, to die when and where you want with +4 (or more) undefended damage and +2 1/2/4 stat 5 attacks with positive twist to damage and chance of extra attack on a mask.... only downer is that it won't drop a scrap when it explodes so no extra synergy with Sparks.

To make the combo even more survivable you could make the metal gamin supplying the scrap a silent protector.

Granted thats 22 SS and several activations to get that combo running but man that seems fun!!! 

Katashiro can also remove stunned or other crippling conditions off of MEI for you....

 

Are there any other cool MEI combo's or models in 10T? Aside from just getting some strong, independent models with some card draw/hand manipulation like the emmisary or Yasunori. Or solid ranged threats in versatile or OOK?

When do you reach for MEI and Why?

I'm also looking forward to @retnab's guide on Arcanist MEI coming to a forum near you after release!

 

[dope_danny]

Honestly at the last stage i used her in the beta the difference between foundry and no foundry was too severe. Most obvious example being if you didn't take metal gamin for ride the rails. With them dropping scrap so often a distance of 30" is nothing to her. If she can't ride the rails she moves like 5"?

Theres a few other Masters i got a lot of use out of the versatile keyword but it feels like Wyrd changed her into a very compartmentalised arcanist leaning master who basically looks at the ten thunders models with ride the rail and goes 'okay you guys made the cut' and theres only a couple of those to begin with.

 

But thats just my gameplay experience based on how i play her in general. I tried some stuff like Soulstone Miners, healing automatons and even tried to get some silly stuff with Toshiro working just because and it feels like you take Mei Feng at least two Metal Gamin are mandatory and that really influences your other choices. Or i'm a bad player and totally full of shit and missing something obvious which is totally possible.

 

So i ended up picking up Youkos box and a bunch of Qi and Gong to get my TT on while my locals argue Metal Golem vs Mechanical Porkchop as the Mei Feng dilemna of the week 😛

[frumpypigskin]

That's interesting, I never really consider dropping the golem. I toss up if I want a gamin, gamin with engine upgrade or porkchop... Having said that I'm yet to BUY the porkchop and haven't tried it yet. This is mere theoryfaux. But I can see it being more important in a 10T crew to keep spreading those scrap as FAR as possible.

I struggle sometimes with using the gamin because they can only walk their 8 if they are "laying the track". If you've got a SS miner popping up head they get an extra push but not so with 10T. The golem gets his 10" plus base size so he's maxing out for the first scrap but I suppose Ideally 2nd turn your getting to move/charge then go off the rails further into the mix depending whether your plan for him is mayhem and disruption or something else.

 

Given most versatile and good OOK 10T hires for MEI have move 6-7 +/- some sort of place/push it seems to me that Mei wants to make her scrap spread just as fast so her Foundry models can re-deploy to near her other models as necessary?

 

Maybe I'm crazy with my Minako/Sparks idea... I think I'll get both and try theme even just for the fun of it.

Also just realised that giving Sparks trained ninja for stealth as well as keeping her surrounded with scrap may really help keep her alive. Not sure this trick play is worth the SS it all will cos but I think I'll have lots of fun losing with it. 

[dope_danny]

The big debate at my locals always tends to sum up as "the golem costs a lot and if its dead you have lost a lot, the porkchop is also tanky but cheaper so you can spread out more upgrades, or reflip more duels". Which is really based on how the game goes more than anything and personally i prefer the golem just for the token and the vent steam but i have seen people go porkchop instead and do well because its 'okay, just not as good' on its own, but with the extra soul stones from its cheaper cost its not a straight 1 for 1 trade but its what you do with that extra budget that makes the porkchop an option.

 

-all of course based on the idea at my locals that if you take mei you take the gamin as a mandatory baseline and build around them. Then you get into stuff like Willie or Niel based on what master your opponents picked and what you might be going up against e.g summoning or damage mitigation and so on.

Overall it just feels like a keyword thats like a once removed Seamus. He has his rotten belles pull things into his LOS as part of the basic synergy and in a wierd way i feel the same about Foundry being all about "i have all these tokens turn 1 that might make my crew look too spread out, but now thanks to ride the rail most of them, mei especially spend the rest of the game straight up blinking around. As long as you dont come up against something that messes with the scrap tokens of course.

[frumpypigskin]

10 hours ago, dope_danny said:

The big debate at my locals always tends to sum up as "the golem costs a lot and if its dead you have lost a lot, the porkchop is also tanky but cheaper so you can spread out more upgrades, or reflip more duels". Which is really based on how the game goes more than anything and personally i prefer the golem just for the token and the vent steam but i have seen people go porkchop instead and do well because its 'okay, just not as good' on its own, but with the extra soul stones from its cheaper cost its not a straight 1 for 1 trade but its what you do with that extra budget that makes the porkchop an option.

 

-all of course based on the idea at my locals that if you take mei you take the gamin as a mandatory baseline and build around them. Then you get into stuff like Willie or Niel based on what master your opponents picked and what you might be going up against e.g summoning or damage mitigation and so on.

Overall it just feels like a keyword thats like a once removed Seamus. He has his rotten belles pull things into his LOS as part of the basic synergy and in a wierd way i feel the same about Foundry being all about "i have all these tokens turn 1 that might make my crew look too spread out, but now thanks to ride the rail most of them, mei especially spend the rest of the game straight up blinking around. As long as you dont come up against something that messes with the scrap tokens of course.

I can see those points about the golem. I agree I'm not sure I've gotten all 10 as value out of him attacking yet but I mostly played MEI through the closed and open beta so have only had a couple of goes with him in the current iteration. 

 

I think lacking a 3rd attack/move and a stat of 5 really limit his kill potential with attacks. Next time I bring him I'm hoping to try and sling-shot him in late in the turn and then start with him next turn; consume his scrap for shielded, vent steam (or just attack if you have a low DF target and can afford to cheat in a high tome to get the trigger) and then go off the rails to engage and disrupt as many models as possible, putting his scrap somewhere potentially useful for backfield stuff whilst I'm at it?

I'll have to mind that he'll still end up with a scrap to escape to the following turn if that's what I'm planning on... 

 

Has anyone had any use out of the dawn serpent? I like the mobility, the heal and the niche scrap marker delivery on a ram. Wondering if he's worth buying?

Thanks!

 

[Zeroflatline]

The golem is great with sparks. Give the golem fast and more sheild then hide him close to the golem out of harms way but in 6in of the scrap marker turning it in to dam/injured hazardous.

[frumpypigskin]

22 minutes ago, Zeroflatline said:

The golem is great with sparks. Give the golem fast and more sheild then hide him close to the golem out of harms way but in 6in of the scrap marker turning it in to dam/injured hazardous.

yea, i'm definitely trying out sparks....

[Nikodemus]

3 hours ago, frumpypigskin said:

Has anyone had any use out of the dawn serpent?

I don't play Mei, but I've liked Dawn Serpent. Mainly for Plant Explosives. Quite reliable there. Usually keyword synergies mean I hire something else if I just want an expensive min3 model.

[bedjy]

=> Sun Quiang is fantastic in mei's crew :
Every model that end their RTR next to him will heal 1, he'll have some scrap to Study wherever you want.
And above all, he'll be able to prevent a weak model from dying :

• Sparks will just scamper towards him once, then be able to be place behind the old man.
• A Rail Golem that has just been analysed weakness will be able to be placed far behind and heal a little.

I've been liking Sun Quiang a lot more than tanuki in mei's crew.

=> Another weakness of the golem is that your opponent knows you'll bring in some armored models, so he WILL bring in anti-armor, and the golem will get destroyed if he moves forward (my last game against perdita reminded me this in a very bad way.

=> I've tried a burning mei crew, with dawn serpent and Obsidian Statue. If your opponent has to remain packed with his models, this can be interesting. My test against collodi has proven effective.

=> I've also played Mei with a very low scrap delivery amount, and it kinda works. Sure, you won't get much Ride the Rail possibilities, but Mei + her totem + a porkshop, can place some scrap in very specific places and be ok with it. Also, Mei doesn't really rely on those to be very mobile. Her Bonus let her push 3" even if she has no scraps around before she can choose to charge or to breath of fire.
 

=> You have some very interesting masters to take as 2nd :

• Mc Cabe is very good in this crew.
• Asami will be able to remove some scrap for her models to last longer and be able to summon akaname & obsidian Onis to spread more scraps.
• Shenlong will be able to do anything you need him to do : ignore armor, move scheme/scraps, kill models with manipulative (which is hard for mei)

=> And you have Minako Rei, which is golden in any mei's crew, you'll just have to bring quite a lot of scrap generators.

In the end, TT Mei looses Magical Training and those versatile little robots that are good for her, but she gains some good stuff to diversify and against heavy counterpicks.

[retnab]

14 hours ago, bedjy said:

Also, Mei doesn't really rely on those to be very mobile. Her Bonus let her push 3" even if she has no scraps around before she can choose to charge or to breath of fire.

Freight Train is a 1" push plus 2" per scrap discarded, so if you're doing it with no scrap nearby it's just a 1" push.

[bedjy]

2 hours ago, retnab said:

Freight Train is a 1" push plus 2" per scrap discarded, so if you're doing it with no scrap nearby it's just a 1" push.

It's a 1" push + 2" because of declaring trigger. => 3"

and it's +3" per discarded scrap

[retnab]

Ahh I see what you're saying, yeah if you get the trigger it's 3".  Yeah my bad on the discarded, typo there.

[thewrathchilde]

On 6/17/2019 at 7:25 PM, dope_danny said:

while my locals argue Metal Golem vs Mechanical Porkchop as the Mei Feng dilemna of the week 

😛

I run both with her.... the Golem is always more of a tank than actual damage dealer with his abysmal melee stat but I almost always have both in the crew.

[Morgan Vening]

1 hour ago, thewrathchilde said:

I run both with her.... the Golem is always more of a tank than actual damage dealer with his abysmal melee stat but I almost always have both in the crew.

I always find it funny when 5 is considered abysmal.

I get it's not awesome. And for a 10SS model, you might expect more, maybe. But unless you're advocating for Stat 7, I'd happily trade -1 stat for  to attack across the board.

Because the math isn't that bad. Yes, Df6 can cheat beyond a hit, but they're also statistically going to be cheating first. Even Df7 in about half the cases, IIRC.

Forcing an opponent to cheat in a high severe (because a 10 or 11 means they may have wasted a card if you've got a 12 or 13 in hand) to avoid a clobbering is worth the trade of the AP, IMO.

[Morgan Vening]

And because I'm REALLY f'n bored, I spreadsheeted it out. The positive flip used 157,464 matchups to get the numbers right. Yes, I factored in Black Jokers as auto losing. It's impossible to factor in game state (ie, you know what's been flipped, what's in hand, etc), so it's figured using blind draws from a fresh deck.

So, here's the results.

Difference	Straight	Positive
-3	33.5	47.2
-2	39.7	54.2
-1	46.4	61.3
0	53.6	68.3
1	60.3	74.4
2	66.5	79.5
3	72.1	83.7

Difference is how the attacker compares. ie, use the first row if your attack is 3 less (ie, Stat 3 vs Df 6) than their defense. Bottom row if it's 3 more.

So, in essence, a  flip is worth slightly more than +2 on the stat for winning the initial flip, resulting in who cheats first. As I said in the previous post, a low Stat vs a high Resist DOES gives a benefit to cheating in high cards, but like I said, that still has a higher chance of them needing to do that first, which can futz with the decision making. 

[thewrathchilde]

2 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

I always find it funny when 5 is considered abysmal.

YMMV.......I get the math but against a lot of valuable targets he can’t hit. I still run him cause he is a great tank but back in the beta I really wanted Stat 6 & Flurry for his cost.

2 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

Because the math isn't that bad. Yes, Df6 can cheat beyond a hit, but they're also statistically going to be cheating first. Even Df7 in about half the cases, IIRC.

My main opponent is a almost exclusive McCabe (sometimes w/Misaki) player and trying to hit a dismounted McCabe with the Golem is futile.

Also had some rough games vs M&SU where Unionized Def 6 Amina just laughed at him for most of the game. 

[frumpypigskin]

Yeah, I think my plan of shielded+vent+off rails when fighting high value high DF targets may be the best value. Especially if my opponent has a full grip of cards. This is a pretty low hand cost and as @Morgan Vening has mathsed out for us, this can end up draining cards they don't want to pitch. Not as nice as deleting a model but depending on where you get him it could be disruptive enough to help you get higher priority things off elsewhere.

Neither the piggy or gamin can do this for you. 

A mounted McCabe would seem to be able to succeed at a similar disrupting, card draining style and could make for a good 1-2 punch.... If you can get Sparks to give fast to the golem you could get both of them messing up the opponent's crew in turn 1 couldn't you? Nice into a bubble crew! Meanwhile you can speak scrap out to their scheme-runners our get your own schemes done... Profit...? Or is this fairytale land?

 

[Mycellanious]

On 6/21/2019 at 11:07 PM, bedjy said:

It's a 1" push + 2" because of declaring trigger. => 3"

and it's +3" per discarded scrap

Just remember that the passive push is after resolving the current action. So you push 1", then drop scrap, then push 2" more

In addition you would only do damage if the first, 1" push was interrupted, NOT The 2" passive push

[frumpypigskin]

10 hours ago, Mycellanious said:

Just remember that the passive push is after resolving the current action. So you push 1", then drop scrap, then push 2" more

In addition you would only do damage if the first, 1" push was interrupted, NOT The 2" passive push

Good to remember, but not the end of the world provided you just place the scrap on the side that you're going to push towards so it's within 1" after the push. Kinda neat that if the intention was to get out of combat provided you had the 8 or the ram you can get in the cheeky dual/2 DMG before getting out of engagement (provided only 1" range) and going off to do what needs doing with 3AP rather than relying on winning a opposed dual to get out. 

Or you can just rail walk but that depends on having scrap where you need/want to be of course. 

[Da Git]

Just had a game, Mei's super fun. Got great use from Freight Training the Metal Golom to cause mass damage!

Sparks is so good packing with Explosives twice first turn, usually to Mei & the Mecha Pig. Makes a great deterrant to attacking them as it's going to hurt them almost as much! Then move forward and turn all those scrap into mines... The extra healing is solid too.

From Thunders, I had the ever useful Tanuki, which saved me a VP from Assassinate and the Terracotta Warrior. I think Foundry is about the only place I'd take these guys. They can copy Off The Rails and Vent Steam for free and then for a 11, he can turn into the Mecha pig which you've used as a suicide missile with Bombs In Yer Belly!

[frumpypigskin]

43 minutes ago, Da Git said:

Just had a game, Mei's super fun. Got great use from Freight Training the Metal Golom to cause mass damage!

Sparks is so good packing with Explosives twice first turn, usually to Mei & the Mecha Pig. Makes a great deterrant to attacking them as it's going to hurt them almost as much! Then move forward and turn all those scrap into mines... The extra healing is solid too.

That sounds fantastic for assassinate...

43 minutes ago, Da Git said:

From Thunders, I had the ever useful Tanuki, which saved me a VP from Assassinate and the Terracotta Warrior. I think Foundry is about the only place I'd take these guys. They can copy Off The Rails and Vent Steam for free and then for a 11, he can turn into the Mecha pig which you've used as a suicide missile with Bombs In Yer Belly!

I was reading about the terracotta and wondering if they would actually see use with MEI because of vent steam... Did you get the replacement off? I was thinking of having him vent steam near support pieces as part of a second row? The 5" seems a little restrictive and I didn't think he'd keep up with the rest of the crew very well with move 4 unless he's using off the rails on turn 1?

[retnab]

Don't forget with the Golem's 5 Stat it's also by far the superior option for attacking models with Manipulative/Serene Countenance/etc effects.  Having a Stat 5 compared to a Stat 6 in those  cases is VERY much my preference.

I have played with the Porkchop a lot and... I really really don't like it.  It's not really a tank, half of its triggers are actively bad for it, and with its low health pool it basically kills itself to use its own moves.  Mv 6 is the only thing it has going for it TBH.

[Morgan Vening]

16 minutes ago, retnab said:

I have played with the Porkchop a lot and... I really really don't like it.  It's not really a tank, half of its triggers are actively bad for it, and with its low health pool it basically kills itself to use its own moves.  Mv 6 is the only thing it has going for it TBH.

The problem with the Porkchop is that if you declare Foundry, your opponent is gonna load up on anti-armor. And without that, he's toast. And Mv stat in a Foundry crew isn't THAT important.

I've been thinking of ways to get him working in his native faction (Wizz Bang, possibly. Maybe Sooey), but he doesn't really do much there besides be a brick, and for 1SS more, you get Gracie who does pretty much the same role. So unless you're wanting both, I'm just not seeing it in faction either.

I've already had to shelve one Porkchop (now Enforcers), but I'm not seeing much circumstance to take the other one either.

[frumpypigskin]

3 hours ago, retnab said:

I have played with the Porkchop a lot and... I really really don't like it.  It's not really a tank, half of its triggers are actively bad for it, and with its low health pool it basically kills itself to use its own moves.  Mv 6 is the only thing it has going for it TBH.

I'm yet to try the porkchop. His move 6 seems to make him useful to be that 1st model into the enemy to lay the scrap for MEI/golem to get amongst it. If this is his job, having to reposition him from his triggers does seems to decrease his value as you cant have the scrap or his vent steam exactly where you planned all the time. 0" engagement decreases his disruption impact too. 

 

What do you usually use to charge in First? The golem going late in the turn seems logical, then activate him early next turn to vent steam and go off the rails to the most inconvenient location possible for the opponent. Then there's scrap right up there.

Is that how you use MEI or do you try and have her charge from scrap further out?

I do like how MEI seems to have a deeper selection of mobile non-armor beaters.

[Da Git]

There's only so much anti-armour you can bring. It's the same as going against the armour en masse Hoffball, very few keywords can deal with so much armour and if they start going outside keyword, they're losing their synergies. It's win-win!

If they're hunting down the Porkchop, they're not going after the Golem, I call that a win! Also, that's why I give the mechapig Bombs in yer Belly, if you take me out, you're coming with me! Then the Terracotta Warrior can respawn it As others have said, that Mv6 is really handy when you have to move away from the rail lines too, either to lay more scrap or hunt down enemies that are frustratingly not being obliging enough to stand next to a scrap marker (how dare they! ).

For me the current core is: Mei, Forgling, Golem (although I do want to test out the Obsidian Statue), Gamin, Sparks, Mechapig, Tanuki. That's 35ss, which then is either filled with either Dawn Serpent or Neil Henry (& maybe a Terracotta Warrior).

Between Neil & Dawn Serpent, it all depends on Strats and schemes and if I think they're bringing constructs/armour.

Serpent - more independently mobile with Mv7, Flight, Agile. Min3 on Ml, decent ranged attack that can drop scrap. Better defense +1Wd, +1Wp, HtK, bonus action to heal, Counterspell aura.

Neil Henry - can Rail walk, 4Ap model between Flurry & Reckless, Better triggers on Ml, Amazing against Constructs with Ignore armour trigger and Scrap.