Climbing down when Lured.

[WWHSD]

If a model is on top of climbable terrain, can they climb down instead of fall down it when Lured by a Rotten Belle? 

From the FAQ
"69. Can the Lure Action move a model off a cliff, resulting in it being killed by the fall damage? Further, can
models choose to move off of a fall which would kill them?
Yes and yes, in the case of Lure so long as the model is moving such that it is taking the shortest route
towards the model taking the Lure Action."

Big Core, pg. 42:
"Models may move vertically up and down terrain with the
climbable trait. Vertical movement costs double the distance
moved. Climbable terrain does not include things like stairs
or slopes, but rather refers to terrain that requires some
effort to scale (such as a ladder or cliff).
Models moving off elevations and falling suffer no damage
if the fall was 2” or less. If the fall was more than 2” the fall
deals 1 damage per 1”, or fraction thereof, fallen."

[Ludvig]

It is quite important to note that the belle's controller is the one making the move so if there is ever a choice between two path that would be equal in terms of distance it's the person doing the luring and not the luree that decides.

Climbing down will obviously get you a shorter distance on any model in the current ruleset would need to jump off most of the time. If you want the model to not take damage I believe it would be ok to climb if they could actually climb down and reach btb in the single move.

[Carecalmo]

They must end the move as close to the Belle as possible.

Climbing down costs movement, but falling does not, so it will always be better (when trying to get as close as possible to the Belle) to fall.

[PirateCaptain]

So, by my interpretation, the shortest route would include falling.  As vertical movement, including going down, would take double move when "climbed" and falling would take no distance out of the wk.  So the shortest distance to end as close as possible would be falling.

[Clement]

3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

If a model is on top of climbable terrain, can they climb down instead of fall down it when Lured by a Rotten Belle? 

From the FAQ
"69. Can the Lure Action move a model off a cliff, resulting in it being killed by the fall damage? Further, can
models choose to move off of a fall which would kill them?
Yes and yes, in the case of Lure so long as the model is moving such that it is taking the shortest route
towards the model taking the Lure Action."

The limitation you're going to be bumping up against is that Lure requires you to "end the move as close to this model as possible".  If you spend your movement carefully climbing down the surface (as opposed to hurling yourself off the top, stage diving style), then you won't be getting as close as possible.

That FAQ entry was the result of a very long discussion along the lines of your question.

[Adran]

I would say you can climb down in the case where that still ends you as close as possible (so if the climb down allows you to reach base contact as about the only time I can see that it would work)

[Fetid Strumpet]

Technically you can, but practically you can’t. If in simple terms of movement alone climbing down would get you closer to the luring model at the end of the move than falling would, than you could climb down. But since climbing costs movement allowance and falling doesn’t there currently isn’t a model whom exists that I know of who could climb down instead of just falling.

So for example if a model has a rule that distance moving during a climb doesn’t count towards its movement allowance, or if it got bonus movement during a climb it could do so. In the second examples case it couldn’t just choose to climb it would have to because using that rule would get it closer at the end of the move.

However if you are just a normal model on climbable terrain and you are lured you cannot chose to climb down you have to fall.

[Clement]

3 minutes ago, Adran said:

I would say you can climb down in the case where that still ends you as close as possible (so if the climb down allows you to reach base contact as about the only time I can see that it would work)

I was initially thinking that too, but the FAQ entry forces you to move the lured target along "the shortest possible route".  That, I think, commits you to the cliff jump.

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Clement said:

I was initially thinking that too, but the FAQ entry forces you to move the lured target along "the shortest possible route".  That, I think, commits you to the cliff jump.

The lure requirement is to end as close as possible. The FAQ say t at you have to fall even if it might kill you to try and get as close as possible, not that you have to fall all the time. As long as you end the lure as close as you can (or die trying to get there,) then you are fine. If there is a route option where 1 takes you through hazadous terrain (or off a cliff), and 1 doesn't, but they both end at the same place then you can choose the safer route. 

[gribble]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

The lure requirement is to end as close as possible. The FAQ say t at you have to fall even if it might kill you to try and get as close as possible, not that you have to fall all the time. As long as you end the lure as close as you can (or die trying to get there,) then you are fine. If there is a route option where 1 takes you through hazadous terrain (or off a cliff), and 1 doesn't, but they both end at the same place then you can choose the safer route. 

I'm not so sure - I think I agree with @Clement. The FAQ specifically says: "... so long as the model is moving such that it is taking the shortest route towards the model taking the Lure Action." (my emphasis). If it instead said something like "can take any route, so long as it ends its movement as close to the model taking the Lure Action as possible", then I'd agree with you, but I think in this case climbing is explicitly disallowed because it's not the shortest route.

[Adran]

53 minutes ago, gribble said:

I'm not so sure - I think I agree with @Clement. The FAQ specifically says: "... so long as the model is moving such that it is taking the shortest route towards the model taking the Lure Action." (my emphasis). If it instead said something like "can take any route, so long as it ends its movement as close to the model taking the Lure Action as possible", then I'd agree with you, but I think in this case climbing is explicitly disallowed because it's not the shortest route.

I remember the discussions leading up to the FAQ entry (EDIT- held here on the rules forums as to how lure worked), and I think you are reading into the text of the FAQ a question it wasn't trying to answer. I can come up with situations where the shortest route possible is not the same as the route which enables you to end as close as possible, and the FAQ does NOT change the actual Lure requirement of ending as close as possible. 

[gribble]

53 minutes ago, Adran said:

I remember the discussions leading up to the FAQ entry, and I think you are reading into the text of the FAQ a question it wasn't trying to answer. I can come up with situations where the shortest route possible is not the same as the route which enables you to end as close as possible, and the FAQ does NOT change the actual Lure requirement of ending as close as possible. 

Quite possible - I'm just going by the wording on the card and in the FAQ, which is really all that most players (i.e. those not involved in the original discussions) can go on.

Of course, the FAQ doesn't change the requirements on the card - it's not errata after all - but all else being equal (i.e. two paths, both of which end with the target model as close to the luring model as possible), I'd then use the FAQ to decide which path(s) could be taken. At the moment, according to the FAQ, only the shortest one could be, by my reading.

[anencephalous]

On 2/2/2018 at 3:55 AM, gribble said:

Quite possible - I'm just going by the wording on the card and in the FAQ, which is really all that most players (i.e. those not involved in the original discussions) can go on.

Of course, the FAQ doesn't change the requirements on the card - it's not errata after all - but all else being equal (i.e. two paths, both of which end with the target model as close to the luring model as possible), I'd then use the FAQ to decide which path(s) could be taken. At the moment, according to the FAQ, only the shortest one could be, by my reading.

Except, the route remains exactly the same length, you just travel some of it more slowly. If you fall off a 2" cliff then walk 2" to be in base to base, it cost the model 2" of its possible move. If you climb down the 2" cliff, then walk 2" into bases to base, it may have cost you 6" of your move, but the distance of the route between the two points is still 2". It is still the shortest route. If they had said the fastest route, then your argument would be correct, but surely shortest refers to actual distance? 

[solkan]

As a reminder, this FAQ was written by the same folks who used "reduce by half" in Incorporeal to mean "reduced to half" or "halved".  

If the model had unlimited movement, what's the shortest path(s) it could take?  If the furthest distance along that shortest path involves falling, that's going to be allowed according the FAQ.