Fazza92 Posted June 11, 2017 Report Share Posted June 11, 2017 I put the provocation on table: Are new masters(ripples of fate),too strong despite oldest? I've 3 tournament on my shoulders only,so I'm little noob maybe...but in all tournaments the first 3 place are ever: Reva/Reva/Reva Zipp/Zipp/Zipp Sandeep /Sandeep /Sandeep Is true or not? I've see that people, win usually win only with a master in all strategy and schemes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnternalVoid Posted June 11, 2017 Report Share Posted June 11, 2017 I am not sure if they are to powerful as much as they don't have the amount of data and experience backing them up. I have played against Somer, Ophelia, and other gremlins way more than Zipp. Same with Marcus and Raspy vs Sandeep or Nicodem, Seamus, and such against Reva. There are plenty of people are are familiar with them, know what they are suppose to do, but has not seen it enough to be able to handle it. I think it is important to consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted June 11, 2017 Report Share Posted June 11, 2017 I'm not seeing it in the UK meta at all, we have various masters winning events right now. That's not to say the masters you listed aren't powerful, they certainly are but they're far from alone. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 One important thing to remember is that they are still "new". It is much easier to learn how to use a new thing than it is to learn how to deal with all the new things. If you follow ta guideline that it takes 10 games to understand something , then you can play 10 games with the new crew fairly quickly, but to learn to stop the 7 new masters you need to play 70 games (10 against each master) and you don't get to say when you'll get to play those games (unless you have club mates with them). So no, I don't think any of them are the strongest choice in their faction. But I also don't think any are the weakest choice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 You have to take into consideration that the gg-17 schemes seem designed to tailor perfectly to the new masters and that the novelty itself means a lot of players have never faced them to prepare decent counter tactics. I still see players doing really well with a few of the older masters that were considered the best before this last wave. Collodi is one example. Highly competitive players seem to be the first to adopt new masters which also skewers conceptions of power. If you forced the players who seem to always place top 3 into using old masters and had the middle of the pack play new masters I'm not sure the middling players would overpower the really invested players. That being said the new masters generally seem strong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Loki- Posted June 12, 2017 Report Share Posted June 12, 2017 Probably more to do with the new masters being, well, new. People have been using some of the old masters for over 5 years, and more recently M2E Core/Crossroads. Theres going to be lots of people playing the new masters simply because it's something new and exciting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertmac Posted June 13, 2017 Report Share Posted June 13, 2017 Last tournament I played I came away with 3 wins and a draw wins were versus Nellie, Wong and Asami, the draw was versus Hamelin and I was using Lilith so I can't say i've encountered them being OP so far! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted June 14, 2017 Report Share Posted June 14, 2017 The new Masters are mostly very complicated and complex aside from maybe Reva who is simply brutally powerful. So I rather agree with @Adran(which isn't rare) that them being (relatively) new and them being complex makes it so that it's hard to accurately gauge their power level still. I do dislike how Parker and Titania seem to be complex mainly for complexity's sake and how Sandeep is so insanely versatile that it makes planning and tactics nearly impossible (there's just too much that a Sandeep crew can do to consider the options well, IMO). And Zipp is also a bit too good invalidating Mah, basically, and Nellie's passing mechanism is really annoying (outactivation shenanigans in Malifaux are it's worst part, IMO, and I say that as someone who uses Stuffed Piglets). I think I've said this before but I find the Wave 4 Masters resembling the first edition TT Masters who were all crazy complex. They were distilled better for second edition so maybe the Wave 4 Masters will be more elegant in third edition... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katadder Posted June 14, 2017 Report Share Posted June 14, 2017 only thing I find powerful so far is nellies pass activation thing being so easy as it turns the game from I go you go to you go you go and then I will react to everything you have done. combined with the ability to easily make her beaters fast and then using 3 debts to the guild this means a nellie crew can quite happily react to all your best stuff as and when it needs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted June 15, 2017 Report Share Posted June 15, 2017 On 2017-06-14 at 9:54 AM, katadder said: only thing I find powerful so far is nellies pass activation thing being so easy as it turns the game from I go you go to you go you go and then I will react to everything you have done. combined with the ability to easily make her beaters fast and then using 3 debts to the guild this means a nellie crew can quite happily react to all your best stuff as and when it needs. That was why the rat engine was disallowed for Levi and the Viks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted June 15, 2017 Report Share Posted June 15, 2017 On 14.6.2017 at 10:54 AM, katadder said: only thing I find powerful so far is nellies pass activation thing being so easy as it turns the game from I go you go to you go you go and then I will react to everything you have done. combined with the ability to easily make her beaters fast and then using 3 debts to the guild this means a nellie crew can quite happily react to all your best stuff as and when it needs. OTOH without the outactivation thingy her claim to fame is basically giving out Fast which isn't all that for a Master. So if she didn't have it, she'd need something else. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katadder Posted June 15, 2017 Report Share Posted June 15, 2017 would rather she did have something else as taking away the you go I go activation is taking away from malifaux as like Ludvig says this is why the rat engine was such a problem for certain crews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted June 15, 2017 Report Share Posted June 15, 2017 1 hour ago, katadder said: would rather she did have something else as taking away the you go I go activation is taking away from malifaux as like Ludvig says this is why the rat engine was such a problem for certain crews. You can still do the rat engine with Hamelin and he has Obey which is sorta close to giving out Fast. Rat Engine was truly problematic for Viks and Levi and such super killy Masters. And yeah, I don't want Perdita to get Nellie's passing mechanic I mean, this is a bit like playing the devil's advocate in that I, too, dislike Nellie's pass mechanic quite fiercely. But I can see the reasoning behind it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted June 15, 2017 Report Share Posted June 15, 2017 4 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said: I mean, this is a bit like playing the devil's advocate in that I, too, dislike Nellie's pass mechanic quite fiercely. But I can see the reasoning behind it. Math didn't even know he hated it until a few days ago. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizuriel Posted June 15, 2017 Report Share Posted June 15, 2017 to be fair Nellie does need to burn either cards or evidence to pass. if she is burning evidence that limits her propaganda attacks and if she is burning cards you only get sooo many. If you control how you attack nellie and your interacts you should be able to limit her to 2 evidence a turn (1 from the totem and 1 if she burns a card on her activation). As for Zipp, he is strong but imo Somer is still the Gremlin with the biggest hat (I would put Zipp tied with Wong for 2nd place in terms of Gremlin master strength). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katadder Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 have seen opponents build up evidence on nellie by attacking with low or zero damage things from their own force, and then its not a problem to use evidence to pass. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 56 minutes ago, katadder said: have seen opponents build up evidence on nellie by attacking with low or zero damage things from their own force, and then its not a problem to use evidence to pass. Are you talking about the guild funds upgrade? Isn't that enemy attacks? Or are they doing it some other way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katadder Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 havent a clue, was on a def trigger? if its enemy attacks only then obviously he did it wrong (and I wuz robbed ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Guild funds gives Nelly a df/wp trigger against all attacks that give her evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizuriel Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 40 minutes ago, Ludvig said: Guild funds gives Nelly a df/wp trigger against all attacks that give her evidence. It's all failed DF/WP defenses (and she only has the built in on DF). So outside of a watcher/effigy attacking Nellie I can't think of many guild models that have a 0 or 1 weak damage (which people would want to bring along). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 Cheers ludvig for the correct answer. Seems I need to read more. nellie can't declare the trigger if she relents, so you have to hope she loses the duel still, making it a somewhat less useful way to build up evidence, but at least it is possible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted June 16, 2017 Report Share Posted June 16, 2017 If you need to cheat low and spend ap to get the evidence it seems better to just discard the low card to start with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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