Cadaverousbirth Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 Hi all, In the spirit of fixing things that are garbage, what would a good fix be for our favorite useless minion, the High River Monk? I was thinking of a zero stone upgrade much like the Low River Monks received which can play to their strengths and make them worth taking. Flaming Fists of the Dragon, 0ss Friendly Monks of High River's attacks ignores Armor when damaging an enemy model with the Burning condition. Simple and effective, putting more emphasis on both the synergy with Shenlong/Sensei Yu giving out Burning, and the HRM's own attacks being able to do something besides hit an armored model with pillows. Rail Golem's beware! What do you think? Do you have a better idea that works both thematically and realistically? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kogan Style Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 SHROYUKEN! 0ss upgrade HRM gain the following attack action: SHROYUKEN!! (Ml 5 1/ Df/ 1/2/3) After succeeding, the enemy model takes falling damage equal to the difference in the final duel total, upto a maximum of 3. This action may only be performed once an activation. Triggers After damaging an enemy model, it gains the burning +1 condition for each in the duel total This is the only possible way to play Ryu or Ken.... I mean High River Monks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokapondora Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 I'd say the problem with the High River Monks, besides being terrible, is that they just don't fill a niche people need, either. It'd really take buffing to OP levels to get them to really see much play, or simply a change in the way they function. They're too expensive, but even at 5 SS I wouldn't touch them. On top of that, their design is so straightforward and yet bad at that that it'd take either a major defensive or offensive buff to offset how weak the other is. Ignoring Armor for a 1/2/4 damage track just doesn't seem worth much. Ignoring Armor, incorporeal, HtK and HtW would still leave me hesitant to take them. I'd say if anything might make me consider them to still go with their playstyle it'd be blast on their attacks and ignite working on all affected targets. And again, even then I'm iffy about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikodemus Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 At 6ss they're competing with Torakage and Obsidian Oni. I'm generally looking at these models as budget hitters, (anti)scheme runners and as warm bodies for extraction etc.. For all those roles I find it hard to pick Monk of High River over their competition. They'd have to cost less or give me more for those 6 stones. Going by their fluff as murder monks I'd expect them to hit harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skoatz Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 The only situation I find myself using HRM is with McCabe against Ressers/Neverborn. Throw the HRM the glowing sword, then charge and discard a card to get that third attack. The immune to horror duels during activation is great against Ressers/Neverborn. I like the Shroyuken suggestion a lot. I think it's fun and interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomjoad Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 It drives me crazy that, when we had the opportunity to do something about this garbage model, everybody voted to buff the already perfectly useful Low River Monk instead... I don't really know the best way to fix them; give them to attack and defense? Get rid of the discard requirement to get 3 attacks on the charge? The Shroyuken idea seems like something; I don't think any of these ideas would encourage me to actually use them though. I think that High River Monks are now consigned to just being some pretty models that only get used by people who don't own enough models to NOT use them, or by people who want extremely fluffy Shenlong crews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tokapondora Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 48 minutes ago, tomjoad said: It drives me crazy that, when we had the opportunity to do something about this garbage model, everybody voted to buff the already perfectly useful Low River Monk instead... I don't really know the best way to fix them; give them to attack and defense? Get rid of the discard requirement to get 3 attacks on the charge? The Shroyuken idea seems like something; I don't think any of these ideas would encourage me to actually use them though. I think that High River Monks are now consigned to just being some pretty models that only get used by people who don't own enough models to NOT use them, or by people who want extremely fluffy Shenlong crews. Again, the problem is that they don't do anything people want more of. They're designed around attacking. At least, that's all they can do. The problem with this is that their attack has very low damage. Their attack has 1" range. The only boost they get is to charging, which is not helped by their charge 6 range 1 and goes against their +1 focus when focussing. And costs a card, which then lets you do one more attack for a whopping 1/2/4 damage. And to top it off, they have 6 defense and that's it. They're a combat model that doesn't do reliable damage, can't tie models down with its pitiful range, and won't survive an activation dedicated to taking them down. They really just seem to be beyond salvaging. Look at Fuhatsu and the pitiful excuse of an upgrade they gave him. It wasn't gonna be what they needed/enough. Whatever fix they made, unless it was a complete overhaul of the model it wasn't gonna make them see play. So people opted for models with potential. Models that weren't quite there yet but just needed that little lift to get them running again. And honestly, I'm okay with that. Maybe it's time to just let go and forget they even existed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newsun Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 I've yet to run them, though I have a list with Lynch geared around discarding aces for charge attacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadaverousbirth Posted January 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 46 minutes ago, newsun said: I've yet to run them, though I have a list with Lynch geared around discarding aces for charge attacks. I've done this and it's cute for the one time you can do it, and then they die next activation and you ask "why didn't I just take another 10T Brother?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadaverousbirth Posted January 25, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 If they got their damage boosted to 2/3/4 ignoring Armor on Burning targets I would take them as scheme runner hunters and think they could do that job fairly well. As it stands they can'T do much at all. I want to wan to take them but I can't justify it unless the person I'm playing is brand new which is less than 1% of my games 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathnard Posted January 25, 2017 Report Share Posted January 25, 2017 I think @Tokapondora has it - High River Monks just don't fill a niche that makes them worth taking. At best they have potential for priming eneny models with Burning for Mei Feng to charge later. Otherwise they don't have the resiliance or killing power you'd expect for a 6 SS model. And more importantly, at 6 SS the Obsidian Oni and even Bunraku offer more utility for the same cost. Bumping up the monks killing power might give it a niche as an efficient glass cannon, but i think it also/instead needs something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somnicide Posted January 26, 2017 Report Share Posted January 26, 2017 Give their melee attacks a built in trigger to add +burning value = the turn. Then they get okay and have a decent unique violent niche. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newsun Posted January 26, 2017 Report Share Posted January 26, 2017 10 hours ago, Cadaverousbirth said: I've done this and it's cute for the one time you can do it, and then they die next activation and you ask "why didn't I just take another 10T Brother?" What was your list? Mine involves ten models, already two bros and plans to out activate and use end of turn burning to attrition or possibly brilliance. Again it's unplayed and thus theoryfaux only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inquisitor Wall Posted January 26, 2017 Report Share Posted January 26, 2017 Posibly giving them the same ability as the high river upgrade where they can suffer damage to boost their duel total. This would make them more unique and where their hit points are low it would not be an overpowering ability. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadaverousbirth Posted January 26, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2017 15 hours ago, newsun said: What was your list? Mine involves ten models, already two bros and plans to out activate and use end of turn burning to attrition or possibly brilliance. Again it's unplayed and thus theoryfaux only. It was something like Lynch w/usual upgrades, Huggy, Graves, Illuminatedx2, HRMx2, 10T Brox2 but I can't remember specifics as this was months ago. Basically the Lynch and 10T Bro side of things won me games, and the HRM's died to odd glances and the occasional cool breeze. Blah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newsun Posted January 27, 2017 Report Share Posted January 27, 2017 Maybe odd glances and cool breezes are what win Malifaux. Lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukemouse Posted January 28, 2017 Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 If you make them harder to kill they will just compete with TT Brothers. Making them into better charge machines just puts them up against Yokai. More burning tricks faces them against Obsidian Oni. These guys are supposed to be aggressive and arguably sadistic, plus they have that disengaging strike burning thing. Maybe they could have Terrifying (Models with burning) with something like TN9+amount of burning? Or maybe an aura that gives enemy models with burning -1 to per burning? Those things would actually cause them to do something after a charge and actually make people want to try and disengage from them. The terrifying idea has cool imagery, the idea that the haze from the heat and smoke would make them more intimidating etc. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cadaverousbirth Posted January 28, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2017 3 hours ago, Nukemouse said: If you make them harder to kill they will just compete with TT Brothers. Making them into better charge machines just puts them up against Yokai. More burning tricks faces them against Obsidian Oni. These guys are supposed to be aggressive and arguably sadistic, plus they have that disengaging strike burning thing. Maybe they could have Terrifying (Models with burning) with something like TN9+amount of burning? Or maybe an aura that gives enemy models with burning -1 to per burning? Those things would actually cause them to do something after a charge and actually make people want to try and disengage from them. The terrifying idea has cool imagery, the idea that the haze from the heat and smoke would make them more intimidating etc. I really like this idea. It gives them more cool factor and something unique. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcticPangolin Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 I also like the idea of a stoked-up Rail Golem cacking its trousers at one of these guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominus nox Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 A trigger to make an enemy take it's burning damage would make their 3 attack charge more appealing as you could use the first 2 hits doing min damage to stack up some Burning then have the last attack be the big hit. Really give them a feeling of combo punches leading up to a finishing strike. Though 10T don't really lack for that sort of trigger, I think it could really help the Monks damage problem. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newsun Posted February 3, 2017 Report Share Posted February 3, 2017 16 hours ago, dominus nox said: A trigger to make an enemy take it's burning damage would make their 3 attack charge more appealing as you could use the first 2 hits doing min damage to stack up some Burning then have the last attack be the big hit. Really give them a feeling of combo punches leading up to a finishing strike. Though 10T don't really lack for that sort of trigger, I think it could really help the Monks damage problem. I really like this idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gennosuke Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 I have this idea: "Flaming charge: Once per activation, this model may gain the burning +1 condition to perform the Charge Action as an (1)AP Action" This combined with their +1 Attack Ability, would allow them to perform up to 4 attacks / focus and three attacks / move 5, push 2 and charge 6 + 3 attacks, at the cost of one card and +1 burning. Does it look too strong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSalami Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 Are these guys any better now that Frame for Murder is suited in GG17? They pretty much always die and the ability to stack a ton of burning means you might be able to kill their frame target with the condition and not give up the points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kogan Style Posted February 9, 2017 Report Share Posted February 9, 2017 1 hour ago, SuperSalami said: Are these guys any better now that Frame for Murder is suited in GG17? They pretty much always die and the ability to stack a ton of burning means you might be able to kill their frame target with the condition and not give up the points. Its not a terrible idea, if the HRM is also your sucker. The HRM's problem in this scenario is Sensei Yu can do the same thing, and provide much more utility for a Thunders crew and Yu presents a tempting target for the enemy sucker as he is a Henchmen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valukr Posted February 13, 2017 Report Share Posted February 13, 2017 I just started the game, but I picked upbsome HRM and I'm quiet excited to use them - I think they synergise well with Mccabe and Master queeg and Luna The predominant trick that I can see is a potential lightsaber and 6attacks (reactive/black flash) - This is obviously extremely resource heavy but, you can do some serious damage, its an option. I also like their high defense, have Luna give them defensive and they can take up some pretty aggressive positions - no? What I see being hard to use is their focus ability - I really dont see a good time to use it. Also, like people have said, they go down easily so you kind of have to target activated models, which can be tough As far as their damage output goes, its solid, so long as the burninf stays on right? They can get a maximum of two burning stacks per attack, correct? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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