How do you solve a problem like Viktoria(s)?

[OneLittleThunder]

I played one game against the Viks when I was just learning Malifaux, and they murdered me...but then everything murdered me back then. Recently I met up with them again for the second time (Hi @Mason!), and I had a much better idea of what to expect...and they still murdered me.

Does anyone have any particular recommendations for dealing with this whirlwind of steely death? I feel like the general plan is to have something killy in position to counter-charge them and burn one or both of them down before they get to activate again...but with their high defenses, healing. and soulstone use, that seems like it will take a HUGE amount of burst damage to work reliably. What have folks used successfully? Or do you take a different approach?

[Lucidicide]

36 minutes ago, OneLittleThunder said:

Recently I met up with them again for the second time (Hi @Mason!), and I had a much better idea of what to expect...and they still murdered me.

Oh, we just call that the Mason Special. The best thing to do is not order the Special -- i.e. Viks versus not Mason or versus Mason with not-Viks.

In my experience (including against Mason), you recognize that something important is going to die and try to set up to capitalize on that death (and move on with the game). Outside of that, when playing against a high-level player like Mason, it's hard to give a lot of recommendations that don't depend on Strategies/Schemes and Terrain.

[Akodo Harid]

As a Viks player, I can tell you that one of my most hated things are paralyzes. Things like the Nurse medicine work great since you don't have to beat me, you just have to tie. Or Bishop (if you don't mind the merc tax) hanging near Blood and giving her a haymaker for most the game. Viks don't tend to have a lot of soul stones and likely burned one or two to get the Whirlwinds. I've also seen Hans run with Shen Long to get two focused shots a turn that wrecked my Viks AND lazarus for free.

I had one amusing game where my brother used Sun Quiang to place Blood on top of a building where she'd insta-gib if she hopped off.

Finally, shoot them. Ash has a gun and is good with it, but Blood can be shot with impunity. The key is to remember that Blood is strongest at the top of the turn and Ash is strongest at the bottom. Don't rely on the Black Joker being in the deck, because I promise that if a Viks player gets a Black Joker, they'll sandbag it unless they have a pretty darn good reason.

But as Aaron said, the bloodlust is very real for a Viks player and even the best of players can be baited into overextending. So put a juicy target just within range and, if they go for it, capitalize. Typically, the Viks go last in a turn, but if you can force them to activate earlier, then one of, if not both, will probably die.

Edit: For more 10T advice. The scariest thing I can think of is Brewmaster obeying Blood if she's standing anywhere in reach of my guys. Since she always has mark of Shezhul. Don't let them get close and focus on the range game or throw Yin at them. Control (hi Lust) really helps to prevent them from having easy charges.

 

 

[OneLittleThunder]

38 minutes ago, Aaron said:

Oh, we just call that the Mason Special. The best thing to do is not order the Special -- i.e. Viks versus not Mason or versus Mason with not-Viks.

Well, tournament, you know - I don't pick the matchups, and Mason gonna Mason. 

20 minutes ago, Akodo Harid said:

As a Viks player, I can tell you that one of my most hated things are paralyzes.

Sounds good, though unfortunately there's not much of that in native 10T. Shooting, though...that we can do.

[scarlett fever]

I've played against a few Viks players over the years and so far haven't found them too bad, but then I'm not playing against Mason! Take into account the Masters I can play well are Shenlong, Misaki and McCabe (though I'm rusty with him at the moment).

Playing against Viks most often comes down to that charge/counter charge so the first turn of the game revolves around that, I find this to be the tensest(and most fun!) part of a Viks match-up. IIRC a best case charge from Blood is about 29" (Student place, Ash place, Oathkeeper, Charge), which seems like anywhere but there will be parts of the board they can't reach due to terrain so be aware where they can strike and either lure them or force them to wait. It's more usual to be expecting a 22" threat. Thunders have access to a lot of stuff that can equal these threat ranges or exploit terrain features to gain advantage. Favourite models are Ohagaru (ignore LoS, place to summons), Lone Swordsman (2" push/Reactivate), Sniper firing lanes, Archers (ignore LoS) and Misaki (Diving Charge, Stalked allowing for free walk actions towards the Stalked target). Playing McCabe allows for reactivating Dawn Serpents/Jorogumo/Austringers/Illuminated or Chiaki with Recalled Training and Glowing Sabre. Paired with her Incorporeal and other slingshot mechanics (Mounted Guard, Nimble, Fast if you have the Emissary) that's a huge threat-range ignoring much terrain. Playing Shenlong allows pretty much any scary threat to increase it's range and/or killing power.

The last game I played against Viks I played Misaki vs Viks and managed to neutralise their threats pretty quick and still retain Misaki. I was lucky the terrain was in my favour but the thing that got me a kill on Blood and Bishop straight off was Diving Charge plus Misaki's free walk from Stalking Blood.

Another key game I recall was Shenlong vs Viks in Squatters. In that game I managed to draw Blood to a far corner by sending Ama over there to clear the flank and take Squat markers. I lost Ama but this effectively took out Blood as she was now too far away to partake in the rest of the game and had no other models on that flank to do basic strat/scheme work.

Viks are quite a psychological game, they want you to be afraid to do anything, to strike and wipe out the core of your crew, so don't get rattled and don't be too defensive either.

No doubt after this little write up I'll face someone with Viks and get massacred. But then I'll have learnt something new!

[Somnicide]

I have nothing to contribute other than an appreciation for the thread title.

[scarlett fever]

I have yet to play my Asami against Viks but that could be interesting. Putting up temporary threats that need to be dealt with might be a good way of distracting them/leading them astray.

[tomjoad]

18 minutes ago, scarlett fever said:

I have yet to play my Asami against Viks but that could be interesting. Putting up temporary threats that need to be dealt with might be a good way of distracting them/leading them astray.

Just charge them with Yasunori turn 1 before they can get everything they need set up, kill at least one of them...kill the other with massed yokai if she ever gets close enough.

[scarlett fever]

56 minutes ago, tomjoad said:

Just charge them with Yasunori turn 1 before they can get everything they need set up, kill at least one of them...kill the other with massed yokai if she ever gets close enough.

That could be pretty fun with baiting. Yet to use Yasunouri but 1 AP 10" charge with flight and 5 attacks. Yep.

[tomjoad]

Plus a 5" push from Asami if you want it, and Ht3 means it's going to be hard to hide from him. I have rarely failed to kill 2-3 things with Yasu by the end of turn 2, and also I have rarely had Yasu live to end end of turn 2. Totally worth it, though.

[amanwing]

Just one thing to focus on when playing against them. Kill Blood. That's all. Maybe feed them cheap tarpits to slow down the alpha strike.

[Eclipse]

A tactic that is worth noting is that since a model that can not see you can not charge you... You can totally drop some smoke bombs with Last Blossom models to block the charge and LoS of Vic of Blood, then catch her unawares somehow.
You could use also Thunder Archers to shoot them from behind cover and LoS. This will make the Vic player want to maneuver so that they can charge you Archers, where you can set up to counter-charge or shoot Vic of Blood to threaten that slingshot. If you have McGabe use this tactic with the far superior (in almost all cases) Austringers.
Finally, you can combine both of the above methods. Keep in mind however that you will need some added mobility and solid hitting power to compliment you crew so that there aren't easy gaps to exploit. For example Shenlong with Yasunori/Izamu, or Lynch with Huggy and Sensei Yu (Wandering River) can make up for this.

[Furycat]

I too have had some rough handling at the hands of the Viks, mainly from my buddy Paul, but from a couple of other people at tournaments also. I think the key is to put pressure on the Viks whenever you can, and try to force the slingshot early. As an example, with a crew containing Misaki, Sensei Yu, Izamu and a Katanaka sniper (And some other stuff too, but they're not relevant). Use Sensei Yu to throw Izamu up field, and make him fast early in your turn, then get a stalk on Blood from Sensei Yu. The Vik's player now has to deal with the threat of a fast, recalled training Izamu which is likely to draw the attention of a slingshotted Blood. She'll easily kill Izamu, but should now be set up to take shots from your sniper, followed by Misaki (Who will have gotten a walk, when Blood charged in). Pop recalled training on Misaki to be sure, you don't want to screw up killing blood, and four attacks at ++ to attack and damage should be able to take her down reliably.

While that example is specific to a Misaki crew, the general sentiment is the same for other masters. Set up a threat the Vik player cannot ignore, and be ready to counter-punch hard. Katanaka snipers are excellent for putting pressure on them at range, and will get reactivate if your master should die to the Viks. You can potentially also make use of Yamaziko and her Brace Yari to make charges unattractive, provided you have already put some damage on her at range first. Yan Lo can turn this up to 11 with his ability to hire Ashigaru and create a wall of pointy steel between your important stuff, and the Viks. Just accept that stuff is going to die, probably expensive stuff, and set yourself up to have it happen on your terms.

The biggest issue with the Viks is that a small mistake on your part will be punished heavily.

[newsun]

I've had some success with giving them henchmen to attack and stoning to prevent damage. The just kill blood now that she's exposed. 

As has been said previously, expect something to die. Try to force that decision and be ready with a counter. If your piece lives all the better for you...unless your counter was to shoot her.

[daniello_s]

21 minutes ago, newsun said:

I've had some success with giving them henchmen to attack and stoning to prevent damage. The just kill blood now that she's exposed. 

3 attacks of fully buffed Pokey is a minimum of 15 damage so unless you flip high cards and Red Joker for damage prevention it is rather 'suicidal' tactic I must say.

[newsun]

True, have to plan around stopping at least one of those with a high card. Though this is why the expectation is that a model will die, coupled sometimes with high defense and some prevention, you can punish this obvious attack.

The other thing is to simply have a winning plan that plays into this...in Malifaux you can lose all your models and never kill anything and still win. Have to stay on mission first. The best players have this in mind first and foremost and then do things which will distract or disrupt their opponent while completing their objectives.

[daniello_s]

22 minutes ago, newsun said:

True, have to plan around stopping at least one of those with a high card. Though this is why the expectation is that a model will die, coupled sometimes with high defense and some prevention, you can punish this obvious attack.

Well, you are facing MI7 with  attack flip so the odds are mostly against you. 

[Freman]

Killjoy.

Blood kills something, then Killjoy unburies, with min damage 4 he only needs two unstopped hits to kill a Vik. Of course there's stoning to prevent damage.

[EnternalVoid]

There has been many suggestions for dealing with the Viks across the forums over time, the problem though will always boil down that there is no silver bullet to deal with them.  Don't get me wrong, even the Viks have bad match ups, but the one factor that is often hardest to take into account is your opponent.  You don't always know the quality of your opponent or the depth of their experience with any given master.  Sure if it is the guy you see every week at the local game shop or that friend you have played with for years you have a reasonable mental image of their capability but even they can throw you off guard.  This can be even worse if we have a mental image of how a master or style goes and we find opponents who can effectively play it different.  Your opponent is a human being capable of mistake but also capable of reacting to your actions.

Aaron highlighted this early in the thread, the problem is a player who is aware of things will be reacting to your attempts to disable or kill the Viks.  To make this worse, you cannot always design your list around the Viks in case someone like Levi or Jack Daw gets dropped instead.   A lot of the best advice can only be given with the Strategy, Schemes, and terrain in mind but that is advice that can only be given at the crisp of the game's start.  So sometimes the best advice given in a blind case like this is the general advice that can be modified with what you are dealt.  At least you can also often get an idea of the mentality of the Vik player based on what else was brought.  Did they bring numbers/activations, did they bring models to support the Viks, or did they make sure to include a third beater to press their advantage.  If the Viks brought numbers or ways to generate additional activations then there is a good chance they were initially planning an early slingshot though if they just brought numbers they could switch to a counterstrike style where the Viks go in after a fight has broken out.  If they brought a decent amount of support for the Viks such as Vanessa, librarian, and means to help keep them alive or moving then there is a good chance they are placing the majority of their bets on the Viks output.  If they brought a third beater, not a mini beater but a true one like Bishop, Strongarm suit, and such then they are likely double downing on the Viks.  They can use the back up beater as their forward guard to spring the trap for the Viks or as a problem solver to handle certain attempts at completing schemes.  The more you can break down the Vik's crew the more you can see what was the original plan and how they can switch it up.

Generally the two rules to dealing with the Viks are Disable or Destroy.  They are to 'Fast' and to destructive to try and ignore entirely so you need to make your plans on what you can do about them the moment your opponent reveals them.  As already mentioned a bait and kill option is often used to try and lure out one of the Viks to cut the combo down.  I have used this before but the problem will always come back to the opponent.  If your opponent has the options they can have something else take the bait to try and pull you out instead.  The same can be said with a counter slingshot like the Misaki cruise missile, it transforms the game into a knife fight with your hands tied together.  Eventually one player is going to commit and it is going to come down to how well they pull it off and how well their opponent can react to it.  Which ever side wins that initial clash and counter clash will have the momentum.

To Disable the Viks things like Paralyze, Slow, Pushes, repositioning, and tarpitting can be used.  Anything that denies AP or forces certain use of it cuts chunks out of the Viks potential.  Even a cheap minion running into the Viks forcing them to kill it first can save a more important target.  Viks also dislike things with Disguise getting in their way as they cannot charge them, forcing them to get another model to remove the Disguised model or walking and taking a single swing instead.  Even if you do not kill the Viks but instead make them spend the game chasing targets and chopping up a few low end models it will be worth it.  Asami can be good with this as Summoned Oni are at full health forcing the Viks to often hit twice or use an AP to boost their damage.  Yan Lo can sacrifice a Ancestor and summon it back, Toshiro the henchmen can do similar and Viks have to be mindful of Set Yari.  Sensei Yu has the ability to push a model, thus potentially breaking up their plans by having a model out of place.  He can even potentially hand out slow. Tannen's Cooler can chew through a hand and his Bored to Tears condition does not need to damage to reduce Walk and Charge, and the no Soulstone trigger is on Success rather than damage.  Even a 10T brother using Monkey Style can be outside a Vik's 2" melee but in combat denying them a charge and forcing them to murder the brother first.

To Destroy them can be both difficult and easy.  For a master and henchmen the Viks have a low Wd count but healing and SS prevention can make it drag out.  It comes generally down to overcoming their ability to offset your attacks whether it comes from a few big damage hits or lots of lower damage hits.  Anything that can cause damage with out targeting them or punishing them for things they want to do help too.  Blast, Pulse, or Automatic damage is nice against them.  Thing is a Vik has a decent chance of surviving three hits doing damage 4 with SS prevention, just it might cost them half their SS pool to do so, but it is also possible they will flip just below par on damage prevention and die.  Most other masters and many henchmen could survive similar attacks with 3ss for prevention.  So if your plan is to destroy them you have to be able to pile the damage on and have alternate means in case the first one gets unlucky or just fails.  You also need to be able to remove models that get in your way effectively.  A Ronin running into combat to try and tie up Misaki is not likely going to stop her but one jumping Izamu before he goes charging might be an issue. 

A way to help both approach is to also try to remove the rest of the Vik's crew.  They will have a hard time doing the Strat and schemes while also murdering your crew if their crew is no longer part of the equation.  Taking out the Student of Conflict, Librarian, scheme runners, or any other important piece to their plan cuts down their options.  This also can cause your opponent to make mistakes by making snap decisions.  Odds are they are thinking really hard on what could be done to the Viks and what he needs to do with them, drawing your opponent's attention from the Viks to things they might be focusing on might make them do something that they regret later *using a card meant for something else, activating in a different order, spending to much effort stopping something that is not important*.

Sorry if it is not the most detailed advice but a detailed one can often lead people astray when things change.  The best laid plans can become invalid in a moment with just a little deviation.

[Freman]

Things which negate the charge action can be handy. For example in Outcasts there's Hamelin (6" Aura with The Piper) Rusty Alyce (3" Aura), Ashes and Dust, Ronin, and Desperate Mercenaries.

Having tried, and lost, Killjoy, I'm going to go with cheap beastly minions who can peck away at the Viktoria's few wounds until they're all gone. I used Rat Kings to just keep adding Blight until I could Bleeding Disease nuke Ashes. Survivalist is annoying on her, because if she gets a chance to heal you have to spend even more actions to dump more attacks onto her.

[triedman99]

Adding to everyone else's good advice: most Viks players expect Blood to be killed after her huge attack, and they NEED to do huge damage to make losing Blood worth it. They'll be saving high cards to spend on Blood's attack, leaving their other models vulnerable. It also takes a few activations and several AP and 0 actions to fully buff Blood; anything to make them waste AP or block 0 actions makes her attack weaker. 

Keep your models far apart (more than 5 inches) so that Blood can't Whirlwind to kill multiple models in an activation.

Kill one of the Viks (preferably Blood) as soon as possible.

Losing Izamu while they lose Blood and a scheme runner or two is probably a great trade for you.

Vanessa/Student of Conflict/Librarian are important to buff/heal the Sisters, but die easily.

[spooky_squirrel]

8 hours ago, triedman99 said:

Vanessa/Student of Conflict/Librarian are important to buff/heal the Sisters, but die easily.

This is what I used to mitigate the Viks last I played into them. I kept Vanessa tied up in combat so that she could not do her thing, and used terrain to force the Viks to have to take longer to get to anything worth targeting. I made a few mistakes, like not having all of my force multipliers near at hand when the counter-attacker dove in--resulting in my spending soulstones to keep it alive long enough to get a second activation.

I play 10T/Arcanists and I have Taelor and Johan, so I have access to a variety of 3" models; I've found that using that reach advantage can help mitigate a lot of things that hit really hard at 1-2" by forcing them to have to walk in. In 10T, there's a number of ways to get a reach advantage as well, including the Jorogumo. This isn't a guaranteed thing because a canny opponent with lots of practice will understand the importance of positioning and order of operations; also, as @EnternalVoid mentioned: just because your opponent declares Outcasts, doesn't mean that they're dropping the Viks.

I've found that against some players and some crews my best bet is to focus on scoring my schemes to the best of my ability. This usually prompts me to drop in Mei Feng and do my best Honey Badger impression. What my opponent drops will determine just how well this impression goes and sometimes it's more of a Road Runner impression than a Honey Badger. This usually comes about because I either don't know enough about the player/crew to gauge what they would be trying to score off of, or the crew is just too good at doing what it does to effectively counter.
Viks doubled down with another reliable beater like Bishop are probably going to get full credit on Hunting Party. If they bring in some things that can hit buried models, I cannot even use the Arcanist's Malifaux Raptor trick to avoid that. They're probably going to get full credit on assassination-themed stuff, like A Quick Murder or Eliminate the Leadership. They kill stuff really really well. If those schemes are in the pool and my opponent drops the Sisters, I'm probably not going to stop them from getting their points if they know what they're doing. So any effort spent on stopping/delaying those schemes instead of spent on scoring my own would probably be wasted. I would be better served by looking at the other schemes and the strategy itself.

When you approach the table and your opponent declares Outcasts and you anticipate the Viks, look at the Strat and Schemes, look at the terrain, then look at your hiring pool (and templated lists if you do like I do and draft up a couple crew options for each round of a tournament). Hire the crew that can get the S&S jobs done, even as things are dying. When your opponent reveals their crew, you can make some guesses as to which schemes they're going for and deploy/maneuver in the first turn in such a way as to get your stuff done while using the terrain and/or chaff models for minimizing the damage that the Viks will do in the second or third turn.
If you're looking for an alpha strike to get an early lead on attrition/activations, it's a possibility (depending on your opponent), but you'll want to make sure that some of the same advice given here for dealing with the Viks isn't used against you. Don't take the bait of an easy looking target that's within easy threat range of counter-attackers.

[Mason]

18 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

I play 10T/Arcanists and I have Taelor and Johan, so I have access to a variety of 3" models; I've found that using that reach advantage can help mitigate a lot of things that hit really hard at 1-2" by forcing them to have to walk in. In 10T, there's a number of ways to get a reach advantage as well, including the Jorogumo. This isn't a guaranteed thing because a canny opponent with lots of practice will understand the importance of positioning and order of operations; also, as @EnternalVoid mentioned: just because your opponent declares Outcasts, doesn't mean that they're dropping the Viks.

Generally speaking, the Viks shouldn't be walking in if they're caught outside their melee range; Ash should be using Dragon's Bite to teleport her and Blood into the battle to murder the long-armed thing that has them at range.

Only mentioning it because a lot of people seem to forget that Dragon's Bite / Flight of Dragons are things that the Vikis can throw out there... and that they also pull the student of conflict in with them, if she's nearby.

 

[spooky_squirrel]

1 hour ago, Mason said:

Generally speaking, the Viks shouldn't be walking in if they're caught outside their melee range; Ash should be using Dragon's Bite to teleport her and Blood into the battle to murder the long-armed thing that has them at range.

Only mentioning it because a lot of people seem to forget that Dragon's Bite / Flight of Dragons are things that the Vikis can throw out there... and that they also pull the student of conflict in with them, if she's nearby.

Absolutely, but I'm of the frame of mind that if it's being used to engage a speed bump, it's not being used on a target of importance. The advantage of something with reach is that it gets in the way of charging, just like severe or impassible terrain. They end up having to address it or work around it. Every time they're doing something like that, it frees up a model to go score on a scheme on another part of the board. That blocker is just there to get in the way and force the Viks to deal with in some way that's either going to cost them AP or positioning.