Are the TT evil -a question from a newbie

[Valgaav]

I'd been thinking about this a decent amount myself.  It's easy to say the Ten Thunders are moral.  They're fighting to free their country, after all, from an incredibly tyrannical regime who want nothing more than the elimination of the eastern way of life and replacing it with Guild morals. This is Truth.  It's equally easy to say that the above is a train of goods the higher-ups are selling people in order to allow them to equally control the populace, and all the real Ten Thunders are interested in is money and advancing themselves.  This is also Truth.  Do the people who act under the orders of corrupt higher-ups to do moral actions redeem the cause, or are the minions who happen to almost accidentally do what's right stained by the evils of their superiors?  It's more a question of your beliefs than any inherent truth.

[Parker Barrows]

5 hours ago, Xavian and Deathgrip said:

Honestly I must agree with the OP, the Ten Thunders have a really cool aesthetic, one that meshes well with western/steampunk. As Tarantino and so many other film directors have shown, the line between the two is oddly thin. 

I do not think that they fit in the lore however, firstly because of how they have no real "good guys" that you find yourself supporting. They are the worse of the factions, even the Ressers have Reva and Molly, and Kirai is debatable. The only other factions that lacks a "hero" master is the Outcasts(!). As well they never seem to screw up. Things just seem to go their way all the time, while the other factions (other than Gremlins) are constantly in bloody struggles for power. Winning and losing at random is what they spend their time doing. The Thunders? They always seem to come out on top, and if they do fail it's because it was all part of a master plan. 

I hate that previous trope, it has to be done very well for me not to grow annoyed. There are so many different and random things that one must plan for that one cannot plan for it all. History's great manipulators weren't the people who could predict things like this. They were the people who could convince others that they could. Take Keith Ledgers Joker (Rest in Peace) the character pulled off heavily guesswork plans, but he plans had a relatively small amount of moving parts, as well as many contingencies. As well his only goal was to kill people and cause chaos, and he really didn't care how he pulled that off. 

As I said, I like their design, but their lore is really, really poor. How does a crime syndicate have century old mythological monsters anyway? If there are all sorts of the things earth-side then why doesn't the Guild bring them in?

I find Lynch to be very sympathetic. He basically a prisoner of the Ten Thunders and the Hungering Darkness. He's just trying to survive.

Mei Feng knows the moment she proves useless, she'll be discarded.

Others have been brought up. But while they are a bit more grey than some others, they are hardly monsters.

As for the mythological monsters.... from my understanding, they were a big part of the kingdom. Then, they fell from grace. So, they still have links to the powers they had when they were a major faction within the Three Kingdoms.

[Xavian and Deathgrip]

16 hours ago, Parker Barrows said:

I find Lynch to be very sympathetic. He basically a prisoner of the Ten Thunders and the Hungering Darkness. He's just trying to survive.

Mei Feng knows the moment she proves useless, she'll be discarded.

Others have been brought up. But while they are a bit more grey than some others, they are hardly monsters.

As for the mythological monsters.... from my understanding, they were a big part of the kingdom. Then, they fell from grace. So, they still have links to the powers they had when they were a major faction within the Three Kingdoms.

When I first saw the Thunders I got the impression they were this seemingly invincible organisation led by xenophobic leaders blissfully unaware of the fact that their organization was one bad day away from falling into ruins and being swept aside.

There is also the whole discard you when you when you are useless mentallity that doesn't really help their case as appearing sympathetic. Everything they do is to further their own goals, everything. Mei is an exception, but she keeps being forced to do horrible things. She is also a communist, so we cannot tell how good she would actually become if she managed to accomplish the revolution she desires. Then for the monsters, why are the monsters in Japan the only ones remaining? The Thunders are human traffickers, drug pushers, and murderers. They also provide nothing to those underneath them. The only ones to profit off the thunders are the leaders, all the other factions can argue otherwise except Gremlins. And they are too drunk and/or stupid to care.

Also why do they use the leader of the Foundry and an extremely important infiltrator as little more than a leg-breaker and enforcer? Someone would see her. It doesn't make sense.

It's somewhat amusing to see how tame this argument is, it's far from a flame war.

[EnternalVoid]

I am in the side that all factions are pretty much out for themselves and often do bad things for what they are after.  There are good people but also bad people.  Like many say good and evil are subjective and based on perceptive but at the same time we can hold certain values for judgement.

The Guild is a fairly corrupt organization that surpresses anyone that disagrees with them in any way.  Ignore the fact they are in the business of Soulstones and there might be actual souls in them, they are an engineer to feed earth the resources they want.  Humans have not been able to prove that soulstones capture actual souls after more than a hundred years of working with them.  As for invading Malifaux for this resource, you have to remember that the discovery of SS had changed earth and it became one of their biggest tools for society.  It would be like if 90% of oil suddenly vanished when the Breach closed.  So you cannot necessarily blame humanity for seeking that resource again once the breach reopened.  It is not like the Neverborn sent a representative to the authorities, stating they were on Neverborn land taking their resources and made it clear they were invading.  Sure humans would likely have still done it but when you think a world is empty and suddenly the natives appear out of nowhere killing people they look like monsters strait out of your horror story, you cannot blame people for wanting to kill them either.  The Guild is a tool put into place to fuel the SS production back to earth, that is its job and it is driven to that purpose.  Lets be honest, this is a world where monsters can exist, your average person can become a necromancer or mage, and your population in no small part our constripted criminals.  At the very least they do try to protect the people to a degree even if it is so production can try to stay on schedule.

The Arcanist are not freedom fighters, not as an organization.  That is their excuse or lie they feed.  Yes some of the people in the Arcanist might actually be able to claim it, but the whole the organization is a bunch of people trying to get what they want regardless of anyone that gets in their way.  They are for the most part criminals that have organized together and roped people that have a beef with the guild into their ranks.  Marcus and Raspy are Terrible People.  Ramos is ruthless but not stupid.  Ironside has a beef and joined the only group that gives her the fight she wants with out being tied to something worse *Neverborn/Ressers*.  Kaeris is ruthless and not a nice person but also not a monster.  Still would not trust her.  Colette is greedy, maybe not primarily for money, and that has led her into tying herself to some pretty dangerous people.  The Arcanist use the M&SU as a shield, it suffers for their actions just as much as it profits from it.  The Arcanist don't care about the little people anymore than the Guild does, they use them as a tool and manipulate them just like anyone else will. 

Neverborn are monsters.  To humans they are monsters.  You can say what you want about this being their land and humans invading it, they really did not actually seem to live in most of it save the Knotwood most of the time.  They avoided Malifaux as it was almost forbidden to them.  They reveal in suffering and torture and it is not something that came about because humanity suddenly showed its head.  While you can say that was part of their culture we can still judge it.  Neverborn are creatures twisted by all the darkness that was unleased on their world, a survival of the strongest society that delights in suffering of others.  To them humanity is as much of a resource as anything else, for entertainment, for food, for growth, and for power.  They do not resist the Tyrants out of any sort of just cause or seeking to protect others from their wrath, they resist them out of fear.  Nothing wrong with that, ones own survival is pretty good reason, but there is no noble purpose to them.

Ressers are evil, worse they are a taint.  By the very nature of their magic and lore it taints the individual.  They can be noble and have good intent but enough association with their course will drag them down in the worse ways.  While those like Molly don't seem as bad don't forget that Molly is progressively seeming to become darker.  Death and destruction, not to mention the whole dealing with undeath, is becoming easier for her.  To be a resser is to eventually be damned.  Seamus and McMourning are examples of how far it can drag down even simple citizens.  It draws out their flaws and inklings and removed the barriers and concious they might have once had.  So in the face of society, Ressers are a disease that promotes an evil course.

Outcast are not good people.  Most of them literally kill people for money.  A lot of them don't even care who they kill period.  Some are desperate and others are driven but their primary trade is ending lives.  People like Hamelin and Jack Daw are just threats to the population as a whole.  Tara could be labeled that way too being the vessel of a Tyrant though she seems to have some measure of control herself.  The Viks are out for their own aims as is Parker and Von Shill.  Some are better than others as they might have a code or actually give aid to people, but most are out for themselves.  Honestly they are no better than the Arcanist or Guild as they all do what they want with little to no regard for others.

Gremlins are an odd one.  Like Neverborn they have a separate society from humans but at the same time they try to mirror us in some ways.  Fighting among themselves and others is not something they learned from humanity though.  Just they got better at it with the introduction of firearms and crafted weapons.  They really are no better or worse then us as they will do bad things to each other and other people.  But at the same time in a few of the stories we have seen Gremlins stand up for their own and function as a community.  Ulix story has the gremlin village standing up for Ulix and his pig.  None of the Gremlins decided to steal the gold pig as they had a fair amount of respect for Ulix and found the little one enjoyable.  But you also have them being dirtballs like Mah stealing what ever she wants and all that and some pretty nasty fighting among them.  I imagine part of it comes from their homeland, you need a certain amount of society working together not to be killed off by the Bayou but it also promotes a survival of the fittest mentality to much of their lives.

Ten Thunders are Dirtballs.  They like Arcanist are not freedom fighters and are not fighting for their people.  They are fighting for themselves.  Now to get themselves ahead they need a certain amount of support from their people and to resist the Guild to acquire the power they are seeking.  But the majority of their command could care less if the people burned.  Heck they might burn those people themselves they thought it could get them ahead.  The 10T pushed Opium on their own people and claimed it was caused by the Guild.  They caused rebellious activity they knew was doomed to failure.  All so they could 'motivate' people to come to Malifaux where they can use them for their future plans.  They are as bad as any of the other groups when it comes to their handling of people.  Mei Feng stated one of the 10T method quite well in that story "Nothing is more lucrative than fear".  They do business with hope and fear to get what they want out of the people.  They are not cementing the future of their people by doing this, they are cementing their own place in power by transforming their people into this.  Not all the masters are the masterminds driving this but most of them know the true face of the 10T.  Just they either have personal stakes or are tied to tight to the 10T to not go with the flow.  But to the 10T anyone is Disposable.

[LuckyLuke]

There are no "Good" factions on a whole.

 

Each one has it's own few masters who have at least some morality or concern in their heart for the right thing. I would say in 10t, the best moral person is Asami. And for guild (my other faction), Lady Justice and Hoffman are the closest to"good" people. Maybe Perdita sometimes. But not Sonia, not Lucius (duh), McCabe is a dirt bag who loved violence and loot.  Nellie is also closest to a good person looking to be a trusted journalist! She's just.. you know.. needs funding. 

[horvagab]

The Ten Thunders are far from a singular entity, though they do proclaim to have a common goal.

 

On the one hand, you have Misaki and Yan Lo, who both come from prominent ancient families and are the actual leadership of the organziation or close to it, as the Oyabun seems to be the real leader here. They have differing ideas about how to do that, but they are concerned about the 10T mainly, and I think the 3 Kingdoms are in the background for them.

 

Brewmaster and Mei are both beholden to the 10T, but they are more concerned with the people under them. Actually, I think they are the most heroic of the bunch, with both looking for ways to rebel against the 10T.

 

Asami is trying to use the 10T to find a way to get rid of her condition, but is being used by the 10T as muscle. I wouldn't say she is heroic exactly, but far from the worst of the bunch.

 

Lynch and McCabe seem to be just pawns to be used in the grand scheme of things, especially Lynch.  McCabe is doing his best to make the situation work for him.

 

I'm honestly unsure about Shenlong.

[newsun]

This thread is so win. Best bit of fluff discussion in a while.

[EnternalVoid]

8 hours ago, horvagab said:

Brewmaster and Mei are both beholden to the 10T, but they are more concerned with the people under them. Actually, I think they are the most heroic of the bunch, with both looking for ways to rebel against the 10T.

Going to disagree with one thing here, Mei Feng is not anywhere close to heroic in my opinion, I would argue of the 10T Masters she is one of the worse when it comes to character.  She is a power hungry, manipulative, and ruthless individual.  She cares little about the 'people' and more about what they can be for her.  At least Misaki was honest in her dislike of people, even her own people, from what we saw of earlier fluff when she had fought Kaeris.  And she changed after that.  Not to be a caring individual but to at least acknowledge them.  Mei Feng hides her dislike of people behind fake words and hidden looks.

From the fluff we know Mei Feng likes to spout pretty words, curry favor with her people, and give the image she is one of the people.  To which she is at least partially right, she is one of the underlings, the lower masses, trapped under the rule of those above them.  She is just ambitious enough to dream of rising above where she is and willing to do bad things to get there.  The fact that in the "From the Ashes" story in Shifting Loyalties we get some good pictures of Mei Feng's character.  *Warning, Spoilers for those that have not read it* She cares little for her own brother, not because he has wronged her or they disagree but she basically has written him off as a failure because he is not useful enough to her.  She let her brother be flogged almost to death as part of a test to see what the doctor's techniques could do.  She also has no problem torturing people terrible and brutally, only to bring them to a doctor so they can be fixed so they can go back to work and make the money she demanded.  Worse she has no problem lying to the doctor with false worry and concern for them.  Now I will note getting the protection money from them and fees was part of her job, one could argue she was just doing her job.  But she played the two face side of it to basically ensnare the doctor because he was a tool she wanted.  She basically says that lying, using, and brutalizing people is perfectly alright when confronted because the ends justify the means.  In the same story she is not really bothered that the doctor dies as much as he enforces the concept to her that even she is expendable.  Yes she gives the Rail Workers new limbs when they lose them, at no charge, but the real cost is not money but the loyalty they give her in return.  She knows money can only go so far, you can buy people only so much and loyalty can sometimes go beyond death.  Her dream is to rise to the top, above her station, and she cannot do it with out resources.  So she does and says what ever she has to to acquire them.  Her Rebellion is not for anyone under her but for herself.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Mei Feng is almost the textbook definition of Evil. As mentioned above. I think the misconception comes in because neither she, nor any of her crew is illustrated with the common "villain" tropes or poses. In visual mediums the troupes that identify "bad people" are just absent in her art, and I know many people always seem pole axed when they read the story mentioned above because they assume she is good. She is a selfish, cruel and ruthless woman and is out only for herself. At least in characterization a thus far. Maybe they have a big change of character in store for her in the future?

[Bengt]

Regarding Mei Feng; her fluff in the M2E book, what little there is, gives no indication that she is a bad person. Further it's quite easy to interpret the Kang and Rail Worker entries as her even being nice (though it also fits with the manipulative angle presented later). Then she isn't mentioned again for two years until Shifting Loyalties where she is manipulative and cruel for shits and giggles. So if someone doesn't have all the books it's real easy to think of Mei Feng as one of the nicer ones.

[EnternalVoid]

1 hour ago, Bengt said:

Regarding Mei Feng; her fluff in the M2E book, what little there is, gives no indication that she is a bad person. Further it's quite easy to interpret the Kang and Rail Worker entries as her even being nice (though it also fits with the manipulative angle presented later). Then she isn't mentioned again for two years until Shifting Loyalties where she is manipulative and cruel for shits and giggles. So if someone doesn't have all the books it's real easy to think of Mei Feng as one of the nicer ones.

I will agree her earlier fluff portrays her better but there are quite a few signs of her... demeanor even before Shifting Loyalty.  In the first book of M2E her fluff bit is mostly about her magical talent but it does mention she has ambitions.  Not dreams or goals, ambitions is the word they gave.  It also displays her dislike for those higher on the food chain of her and her very hostile and nasty temper.  Then if we go way back in storms of Shadows in that first bit of fluff with Von Stoker she gave the air of arrogant, cruel, and one who enjoys inflicting pain.  Her own little story had her impatient and she describe herself as having come from poverty before her ambition and brutal streak drew the 10T attention.  She goes on to talk about how she craves power.  She even thinks to herself how she manipulated to earn her workers trust as part of said goals.  So while it might not show the outright cruelty of Mei Feng that she displays in Shifting Loyalty, it does show that she is not a hero of the people that she lets them think she is and certainly has the caliber to be that bad of a person.

Kang is shown in pretty bad light in Storm of Shadows as well as he clearly manipulates the workers for their goals, considering them all pawns.  Just he is amused as he thinks the illusion of freedom can taste just as sweet. 

[Xavian and Deathgrip]

I love this, any other forum I have been on a flame war would have started for far, far less. But here?

Thoughtful and borderline philosophical discussion, hell yeah. 

The thing with the Thunders, at least from what I can gather (I don't own any of the books) is that they tend to vary between extremes in how they are portrayed, sometimes they are portrayed as being an idealistic and near perfect faction, so other writers try to balance that out by showing their dark side and focusing solely on that. Hence why some find them to seem completely and totally evil, the accentuation of a dark side makes the good side look like a front. As well the Thunders lack the widespread influence to have people in their ranks that genuinely want to help but have no where else to go to. All the others have those. 

For Mei, who seems to be the focus of this discussion, it boils down to one simple fact: she is a communist. 

She truly cares for the people and wants to improve their lives, but it comes down to just how radical she is and that seems to depend on the author. Because free speech I am willing to accept another man or woman's views as being a communist, just not a radical communist. A radical is someone who is narrow minded and believes that they are right, both morally and logistically. (eg. they believe that communism is the most efficient form of government and cannot be convinced otherwise) This also means that they are willing to do anything, as they believe that the ends justify the means. This brings the worst out in people. ISIS, the Nazis, the communist party of China, the Rwanda Genocide... I could go on, but one expression sums it all up:

The round to hell is paved with good intentions.

Because at the end of the day, the intentions matter less than the means. (actually that is a really complicated topic that I could go on about... So maybe don't start arguing about that)

With Mei it may seem at first to be a simple question, is she a radical or not? But it is really much more complicated than that. Everyone has a different perception of fictional characters, take Batman and ask someone to describe his motivations and personality in detail and almost everyone will have something slightly different. Combine that with different writing style's and tropes that one employs means that each writer is likely to have a completely different character. So then, does it matter what she does, or is what matters more one's own perception and personal interpretation of the character. She is not real, and so many have written for her at this point that it would be difficult to find a general consensus on her, so one's own interpretation is probably the most important part.

Sorry if this is overly long, I just came from writing a final year essay that is due tomorrow and that I hadn't started until today and my brain is still in analyze mode. 

 

[Bengt]

I don't agree with the communism hypothesis. It's clear that she isn't a communist at heart as she is only in it to get power for herself (and torturing people for fun, but that is perhaps more of a hobby) and doesn't care for the lowly workers in any way but as pawns on her road to power. It doesn't seem like she uses a communist front either, it seems more akin to a roman style patron/client system.

The general idea of communism is to establish a society with common ownership (primarily of the "means of production") and no social classes. Obviously there a lot more details to this rather large political philosophy, but that is the desired end result and what you would arguing for even if you only want to trick people into creating a "dictatorship of the proletariat" with you at the top.

[ArcticPangolin]

On 11/26/2016 at 10:42 AM, Xavian and Deathgrip said:

Then for the monsters, why are the monsters in Japan the only ones remaining?

I believe the main focus on Japanese mythology stems from the Oyabun. Being the (correct me here) emerging/current leader/largest stakeholder of the Ten Thunders there would be some focus anyway, but the Thunders in Malifaux would be those the Oyabun trusts most to cement his power in this new world, who would in turn be likely to be from the same part of the world.

Yin, who is of southeast Asian heritage mythologically-speaking is likely to be primarily non-Japanese.

Komainu originate from Tang dynasty China.

I do not know enough of religions to hazard a guess as to the Soul Porter's origins.

Are Dawn Serpents Chinese in appearance, or across Asia generally?

[Flint]

The difference between communism and radical communism is like difference between terrorism and radical terrorism. Communism forbids any private property and there is no middle ground here. And because all people like to have some private possessions, e.g. small heirlooms you have to force them to make it a common property. According to Communist Manifesto even women were to be a common property... There is only my way or gulag. Or execution camp. 

And the answer for the topic question is: yes. Everybody is evil. And only bad things happen in Malifaux

[Bengt]

47 minutes ago, Flint said:

According to Communist Manifesto even women were to be a common property...

Quite the opposite actually. It claims that women are treated as property in traditional marriages and that that will be done away with. Perhaps you should read the Communist Manifesto, it's freely available on the internet and isn't all that long.

[Flint]

I did  They are against "hypocracritically concealed" bourgeois ownership and want to make instead common and "openly legalised" Chapter 2.

[Eclipse]

6 hours ago, ArcticPangolin said:

I believe the main focus on Japanese mythology stems from the Oyabun. Being the (correct me here) emerging/current leader/largest stakeholder of the Ten Thunders there would be some focus anyway, but the Thunders in Malifaux would be those the Oyabun trusts most to cement his power in this new world, who would in turn be likely to be from the same part of the world.

Yin, who is of southeast Asian heritage mythologically-speaking is likely to be primarily non-Japanese...

 

Are Dawn Serpents Chinese in appearance, or across Asia generally?

Fits the description of the both Chinese and Japanese dragons. Of course, it's most probably not a dragon per se, but rather a lesser species - probably akin to a Flood Dragon (distant offspring of dragons). The Shadow Emissary is the real dragon (as far as I understand).
Anyway, monks? Mainland China (to say it in simpler terms). Etc, etc.
Also note that both Chinese and Japanese rulers were often cruel and ruthless, punishing even minor crimes with so as not to allow other to undermine their authority (and the fear thereof).

[Bengt]

3 hours ago, Flint said:

I did  They are against "hypocracritically concealed" bourgeois ownership and want to make instead common and "openly legalised" Chapter 2.

Marx claims that a "community of women" has always existed, combine that with the intention "to do away with the status of women as mere instruments of production" it seems highly unlikely to me that that text is supposed to read that women will be "common property" as you put it.

The meaning of Marx' rambles isn't always super clear though.  

[Treehouse]

About Mei Feng, I was actually a bit disappointed when I read Shifting Loyalties because I deemed her to be a rough but good person. But now she's using a doctor to reattach fingers she has cut off herself so she could do it all over again if the protection money doesn't come flowing? Damn.

And Lynch, yes, he does seem more of a guy you would feel sorry for, but on the other hand he seems to have no troubles turning people into addicts of magical crack and then uses them to fulfill contracts or get consumed by Huggy. He is a tragic person, but in the end he is still just thinking baout himself.

 

I'd say altogether that the faction's masters can be 'sorted' into good(ish) and bad, while the aims/heads/beliefs of all factions (except Gremmies :P) are evil in various definitions.

Gremmies - now that I think of it - are actual as good as it gets in Malifaux for a whole faction, I guess. They have powerhungry individuals (Somer) but mostly stick to themselves/their families. And Ulix just likes his pigs. He is basically Malifaux's Peta. But luckily with clothes on.

Gremlins loot and plunder and will kill, but don't have an agenda of exploitation, deceit and murder like the other factions.

[horvagab]

Ah, I'll  be honest, I haven't really read most of the stories in M2E up until Ripples of Fate, and only came onboard with 2nd ed. From the core, she seemed like someone who believes ends justify the means, with the end  being some kind of communist utopia or something like that, so I missed Mei's stuff.

 

Comparedly I found Brewie to be mostly a pawn, until Ripples of Fate, where he seems to be rebelling in some ways.

[InvokeChaos]

Warning!!!!!! SUPER LONG POST that I tried to make cohesive, but I did ramble a bit... sorry, mind is in a million places. If it's too bad, I'll chop it up or rewrite it. 

TL;DR - Two points: Good and evil is a matter of perception. And when everyone is a devil, sinners can seem to be saints. Are the 10T all evil? Yeah... they kind of are. But it's fantastic.

For me personally, the two points that matter most to me from this discussion thread (and writing on morality in general) are:

Good and evil is a matter of perception

So let's devil's advocate the only real sympathetic character everyone has agreed upon thus far:

I would offer that Lynch, is just as bad/evil as the rest.

Why? Because selfishness. Lynch is worried about his own personal survival and does what he has to do to survive. Is this good or evil? Well now we have entered the realm of perception. To some, simply doing what you must to survive doesn't make you evil. But if doing what you must to survive involves the destruction and manipulation of tons of innocent people... well are you really that good? Can you even put a label there? What other option does he really have? Die and let some other poor soul take his place that may be worse or better? If they even LET him die as opposed to punishing him until they get bored?

From my own personal perception, doing whatever it takes to survive is dark... Killing innocents just so you don't have to suffer or die is kinda not cool in my book. Would I do it in the same situation? I don't know honestly. I just pray I'm never in that situation. Because I don't want to have to make the choice of my life over others. But Lynch did. And his choice was whatever it takes to stay alive. I have zero problems with this, and I think it makes him a great character, but I'm not willing to slot him in the good category just because he's trying to not die.

However, the reality with Lynch (and most ethical arguments) is there's a bunch of grey in the picture. But that's what makes compelling writing. You want to cause emotional reactions. You want to create conflicting viewpoints depending on the perception of the reader. But all that starts with the simple concept of obstacle and goal. Lynch's goal is to survive. His obstacle is the the constant state of moral inequity he must perform. Or to be more blunt: the Ten Thunders. The Ten Thunders is his obstacle. They manipulate and control him (really everyone) they see as useful to further their own ends and place of power.

Crying Freeman comes to mind with the 108 Dragons. The Triad and Yakuza... any mob affiliation really. The goals of those in power are what dictates the direction of those under them. They are tyrannical in the purest form not because they are tyrants, but because it works. They have learned that fear controls the masses more effectively than hope or kindness. And as such they employ it. Arguably, a person will go to much greater depths to overcome an obstacle when their life is on the line. We see this with Lynch and Mei Fang. 

Now that's not to say those characters own personal traits and morality compasses don't mark them as evil, that's kind of up to the reader. The interpretation. I think the 10T are ruthlessly efficient with power hungry people at the top willing to employ said efficiency. This comes across as evil no matter how you slice it. Just like an invading lord slaughtering people, even though his dreams of uniting his kingdom may actually be in the best interest of those who survive the war. Nobody cares about what the end goal is... you're ruining people's lives NOW. But to them, the ends justify the means and as someone already said, the road to hell becomes paved with good(?) intentions.

Now I actually don't know the goals of the Ten Thunders overall. I'm not sure they've been clearly stated other than to combat the guild and regain the prominence of the Three Kingdoms... I think. I haven't read enough of that fluff, only the individual characters that I play! But the point remains that regardless of their intent, their actions define them as an evil entity... depending on your perspective. I love that the 10T are a bunch of ruthless, everyone is expendable kind of faction. I think it fits the world, it fits the aesthetic, and is realistic. Do I label them evil? Yup. Do I have a problem with that? Nope. They have a bunch of conflict with the other factions and internally. Sign me up.

I mean, that's what makes a lot of the fluff for Malifaux so compelling in general: everyone has a goal, and everyone has an obstacle. Conflict. Everyone is in their own personal war that may or may not be part of the greater whole of the Malifaux storyline. And everyone has blood on their hands, which leads to point two.

When everyone is a devil, sinners can seem to be saints.

In a world where anyone is willing to do almost anything to accomplish their goals (whether that goal is survival or world domination) finding someone with ANY morality at any point casts a different light on them. It casts the light of sympathy. 

Oh, look! That evil murdering asshole felt sad for that person who died needlessly, he's not all bad after all.

Look at Reva's new henchman. Her story is basically from his perspective and it shows that he's not only not a nice person, but a really really bad person who is facing somewhat of a moral conundrum that causes him to question. This doesn't make him good. It makes him human. He's still a murdering SOB... but the spark of character depth has been clearly shown. He's not JUST a murdering SOB.

And that's something I feel the writers at Malifaux have been very successful at doing: creating complex characters where everyone is a dark, evil(ish) character, yet some have that spark of light that makes them sympathetic. And it's the reason that Ten Thunders is my favorite faction. Everyone of the masters I understand their motivation. I agree and disagree with them, but you get it.

My favorite by far is Asami right now. So good! What a tragedy she is, but still a murdering, oni-spawning, creature of devastation...

The ends justify the means.

The fact that she was a sweet innocent girl just trying to once more become a sweet innocent girl makes her sympathetic. She isn't in it for the wanton blood and violence, and doesn't like it... but that doesn't mean she won't do it.

So to answer the OP's question: are the 10T all evil?

Yeah... they kind of are. But it's fantastic.

 

[MadMax867]

I always felt like in Malifaux their was no real good or bad. They more of one moral dilemma after another in a cruel world.

[Daimoniodes]

Somehow Lynch reminds me Casino Royale villain Le Chiffre, both are villains. And both are in great dept for something really dangerous and try everyhthing to survive in that situation. That leads them to ruin lives of other persons. It is basically organised crime type of deal, you own money to us and you work for us. Lych just happens to be in dept for two nasty sharks: Huggy and Ten Thunders.

 

But I see Ten Thunders as a great house of cards. It is really complex and elegant web of infitration and influence inside other factions. But it can come to ground if all connections are revealed.

[spooky_squirrel]

One of the things I've learned over a lifetime of reading and writing as a side hobby is that complex characters make for better stories. Villains are more believable when they have many good traits, enough so that people can actually find sympathy with them. That's what makes solving the problem of the antagonist less straight forward. With the characters in Malifaux (hat tip to @InvokeChaos with the longer explanation of this) there is a depth, there is something human about them that we can nod our heads to and say "I can understand that, even if I disagree with it" that helps make them believable.

It also helps drive stories. Why hasn't the Guild dealt with McMourning or Ramos yet, when almost everyone else they get an itch about ends up in chains or a collar? They have that itch, that suspicion, but they cannot just go in and deal with them the way they would some peasant riding the train. They not only have too much influence to just be buried and they've actually done some good for the Guild, making the relationship is complex. Guild masters hold conversations with Ramos, believing that he's not on their side even as they're accepting advice from him. Ramos knows Mei Feng is a 10T plant, he's even sent his best (as far as we know) spy to infiltrate Mei Feng's Foundry and try to get something on the 10T. If she were to have an 'accident' in the rail tunnels, it would be far from the first time such a thing happened, but instead Ramos is using her as a way to find out about the other criminal organization on this side of the Breach. She has fluff showing her selfishness and ruthlessness, but she also has fluff where she's the tip of the spear against a nascent Tyrant, and it nearly kills her. That's not the conduct of someone who is purely selfish and ruthless.

 

Having every major character be villainous in some way also helps drive the game. Sweet Asami seems so innocent, but those oni are killing everything around them! Ramos seems to be a helpful guy, a real man of the people, but he's up to something ...like leading a criminal organization that conducts raids against the Guild among other things.