Mounted Guard scale

[Math Mathonwy]

OK, what is this:

(Not my picture, found on the Internet)

That's just atrocious!

Wyrd has had problems with scale for a long, long time now. Much of the time the problem is swept under the rug ("All the female TTB models randomly are taller than all the men because in real life people are of different heights" and "every kneeling person is randomly a giant") and I can understand that. Admitting that there's a problem would mean that there would be an outcry for them to make the kits again and that's crazy expensive.

Furthermore, to pick an example elsewhere in the industry (and history), Confrontation had two different scales going on. Most models were 32mm but Dwarves and Goblins were 38mm scale. They were slightly smaller than humans but everything about them was a bit larger scale. It was a stylistic choice that had been made on purpose. It didn't look that weird.

But I think that those pony riders are very silly. Silly enough to cross the line. I won't be buying those even though they would've fit in with my Guild collection rules-wise.

Why is getting the scale right so difficult?

(I know that this is a harsh message. I strive to give praise when praise is due and give criticism when criticism is due, hopefully to let Wyrd know what I like and what I don't. I hope that we can have a civil discussion about these thing. So even if you disagree with someone, consider for a moment that they are a human being on the other end of the Internet and most likely one that shares the love and passion that you feel about this hobby. And if they are/are not bothered by things and it is different to your reactions, it isn't a personal slight against you.)

[Macumazahn]

Awww, they're so cute!

[Bengt]

I find it really puzzling that a process was not put in place after the first time this happened (or the first set of mistakes if we assume several were in production before it was discovered). But it has happened again again over the years. It's hard to believe that it's intentional, e.g. take the lowered price on Nekima after it was discovered she was human sized.

While I was never in the market for Mounted Guild Guards, tenny tiny Reva has made me skeptical about purchasing her box once it is released. I think it's a nice sculpt, and it may not be totally unrealistic (there was some argument about this in another thread), but it looks kind of silly next to other Malifaux models.

[Burnin' Coal]

Like Math Mathonwy in no way would I wish to denigrate any aspect of Wyrd as in my brief experience both their products and customer support when I needed it are superb....

However..... whilst accepting that it is only a game ,like many others ,I have now invested several hundred dollars in this very enjoyable fantasy...but even in fantasy there are rules...the visual aspect of the game is what drew in both me and my partner and at a visual level they fail immediately....in that same moment the fantasy ends....

So much time and effort has clearly been expended in the creation of these great looking models so it is disappointing to say the least to see these photos...they were near the top of my Black Friday shopping list...and now they aren't.

[Cadaverousbirth]

17 minutes ago, Burnin' Coal said:

Like Math Mathonwy in no way would I wish to denigrate any aspect of Wyrd as in my brief experience both their products and customer support when I needed it are superb....

However..... whilst accepting that it is only a game ,like many others ,I have now invested several hundred dollars in this very enjoyable fantasy...but even in fantasy there are rules...the visual aspect of the game is what drew in both me and my partner and at a visual level they fail immediately....in that same moment the fantasy ends....

So much time and effort has clearly been expended in the creation of these great looking models so it is disappointing to say the least to see these photos...they were near the top of my Black Friday shopping list...and now they aren't.

I'm in the same boat. hopefully having two different threads on this issue will draw some attention.

I love Wyrd and Malifaux and want them to do the best and have the best stuff. These are bad. Make them better, please.

[Wolfpact]

I'm.. not seeing it?

The humans all seem roughly the same size, and as someone who has lived around and raised equines all his life.. they do come in a wide-variety of sizes and builds.

I can't imagine it is easy or cheap to bring horses through the Breach without mishap, so the guards would likely get ponies and less-robust and impressive breeds? Maybe?

Makes sense to me, anyway?

[Gnomezilla]

In retrospect I have to salute McCabe's sculptor for having the foresight to turn the horse's head a bit, letting the horse be larger while still not overlapping the base to the "how am I going to transport this" level of the Lone Marshal. And (with a deep, very reluctant sigh) I suppose the pale rider's rearing, difficult to secure to the base* pose is another good compromise to get a proportionate horse onto the same scale of base as a human on a 30mm. Gorgeous thing, the pale rider, all credit to the sculptor. It's just above my skill level right now.

In isolation I actually prefer the scale of the mounted guard's patrol ponies, and the pose of McCabe's horse. Don't know whether it would bother me on the field, alongside other unmounted models.

If there's someone who absolutely needs a single mounted guard but absolutely cannot abide them in their current scale, I might be willing to swap mounted McCabe for a mounted guard. He's both built and poorly painted though, and honestly I need to let the morning caffeine take effect before committing to anything.

 

 

*note to self: find dollar store clay and start practicing how to make a support piece which doesn't look awful, because the current basing breaks when I look at it sidelong

[Absolution Black]

I was also looking back to see if the renders or artwork suggested such a small horse/pony...  the pictures I've found make it hard to tell.  What I did find was the Gencon newsletter had them for sale at $40, not $45.

I blame Trump.

[koronuslight]

So glad I bought the Nightmare McCabe box just to own the Death Donuts. 

I thought the scale this game was designed in was called "Heroic" not "Sidekick"

[Math Mathonwy]

3 hours ago, Wolfpact said:

I'm.. not seeing it?

The humans all seem roughly the same size, and as someone who has lived around and raised equines all his life.. they do come in a wide-variety of sizes and builds.

They do come in various sizes, yes (I've some real-life experience with horses as well) but to me they look silly like that. Un-imposing. Just like a mounted police riding a pony in real life would. So it isn't just about whether it is possible but the way it looks. I mean, Malifaux is infused with magic which corrupts hounds - maybe it shrinks horses? But even if that explanation was incorporated into the fluff, my problem is that they look silly like that.

Still, mind, if they don't bother you, that's OK.

[MrDeathTrout]

I have the Wild Ones, but wanted to get the Std. Mounted Guard to play with.  I really like how they look and aesthetically they fit better with the rest of the Malifaux models.  But after I saw my friends Std. Mounted guard on the table I decided to skip them and stick with the death donuts.

 

 

[Wolfpact]

47 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

They do come in various sizes, yes (I've some real-life experience with horses as well) but to me they look silly like that. Un-imposing. Just like a mounted police riding a pony in real life would. So it isn't just about whether it is possible but the way it looks. I mean, Malifaux is infused with magic which corrupts hounds - maybe it shrinks horses? But even if that explanation was incorporated into the fluff, my problem is that they look silly like that.

Still, mind, if they don't bother you, that's OK.

I kinda see it as the fact fascism tends to be horribly inefficient, and these Guards are not quite as deserving of fine steeds as McCabe or the Marshal?

[Math Mathonwy]

I hope that someone converts one giving a ride to an Executioner... Maybe in the next Iron Painter  

[Absolution Black]

I have no issue with anyone liking them, but IMO they just simply look off. It's a shame as the,art and renders seemed to be more promising.

They are mounted police and supposed to be intimidating. If our police force went around on similar sized ponies I would probably laugh rather than behave.

[Clement]

Can anyone get one of these ponies up next to Reva?  I wonder if they're the same scale.

[yukonicus]

Wahoo I have the most famous mounted guard on the internet!

 

But in all seriousness they do look ridiculous in person.  So much so that I can't stand to play with them with anything else mounted, even though I'd love to make good use of their group charge ability.

 

I'm getting a reva in the next couple days;  I'll throw up the pictures with her next to the mounted guard once that happens. 

[Absolution Black]

You know, I think I may be to blame. It's karma coming back to bite me. As a guild player I admit I chuckled when I saw the pics of Reva. 

I saw our horses and scoffed at the size of the ressers pony.

And now this. I hold my hands up, I'm sorry.

[Ludvig]

Reva should get an upgrade that allows her to hire the mounted guards. Call it something like "too small for government work" or "pony assets"  

Edit: Possibly "guises of equestrianism" or something along those lines.

[TheJoyInGaming]

On 11/11/2016 at 11:32 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

They do come in various sizes, yes (I've some real-life experience with horses as well) but to me they look silly like that. Un-imposing. Just like a mounted police riding a pony in real life would. So it isn't just about whether it is possible but the way it looks. I mean, Malifaux is infused with magic which corrupts hounds - maybe it shrinks horses? But even if that explanation was incorporated into the fluff, my problem is that they look silly like that.

Still, mind, if they don't bother you, that's OK.

I must ask for clarification on this problem with the Mounted Guards. It would appear in your first post that you're problem with the models was that they were not scaled properly, an inference i feel is supported through the fact that you mentioned what is widely considered to be a scaling mishap with the Conversion Kit. This post is all over the place however. You mention that you are aware that there are different sizes of horses but then go on to say that maybe Malifaux shrunk them? If you have a problem with the size of the horses then that is fine but if there are real life examples of horses of that size then it is very doubtful it is a scaling issue. I am not pointing this to be antagonistic but to merely try to understand the reason why you dislike it so much.

With regards to Reva i don't think that was a sizing issue either. Giving the photo of the horse i believe it is to be a specter that Reva rides. I think this is supported through her own upgrade Beyond Death where she is able to charge through anything, usually something only incorporeal models can similarly do. A specter would not need to be the size of the horse Lucas McCabe need ride. This is speculation on my end though as i do not have the Ripples book and don't know if the fluff says anything about her horse. BTW i do happen to love Reva and her horse.

To add one last point: it is perfectly fine to say that you dislike the aesthetic of a model and believe they could have done better. However, I think it is a different thing to accuse them of making a mistake with the model's scaling just because of that.

[yukonicus]

1 hour ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

 

To add one last point: it is perfectly fine to say that you dislike the aesthetic of a model and believe they could have done better. However, I think it is a different thing to accuse them of making a mistake with the model's scaling just because of that.

Im not the guy you quoted but I can absolutely state I believe its a mistake.

The mounted guard arent just riding a tiny horse like reva is.   They're tiny people on tiny horses.  I took a picture of them next to sidir and a guild riflemen which someone posted to the guild scale thread as well; Sidir and the riflemen are taller than the guard and their horses together!  There's no fluff for that.

That being said, they're beautiful models and beautiful sculpts; they just look stupid next to anything else.

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

I must ask for clarification on this problem with the Mounted Guards. It would appear in your first post that you're problem with the models was that they were not scaled properly, an inference i feel is supported through the fact that you mentioned what is widely considered to be a scaling mishap with the Conversion Kit. This post is all over the place however. You mention that you are aware that there are different sizes of horses but then go on to say that maybe Malifaux shrunk them? If you have a problem with the size of the horses then that is fine but if there are real life examples of horses of that size then it is very doubtful it is a scaling issue. I am not pointing this to be antagonistic but to merely try to understand the reason why you dislike it so much.

With regards to Reva i don't think that was a sizing issue either. Giving the photo of the horse i believe it is to be a specter that Reva rides. I think this is supported through her own upgrade Beyond Death where she is able to charge through anything, usually something only incorporeal models can similarly do. A specter would not need to be the size of the horse Lucas McCabe need ride. This is speculation on my end though as i do not have the Ripples book and don't know if the fluff says anything about her horse. BTW i do happen to love Reva and her horse.

To add one last point: it is perfectly fine to say that you dislike the aesthetic of a model and believe they could have done better. However, I think it is a different thing to accuse them of making a mistake with the model's scaling just because of that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ponies and horses are the same species, right? And Shetland ponies are barely over a meter tall. So yeah, it's possible to have silly tiny horses. Or you can come up with some other explanation because of magic.

So I'm definitely not saying that horses that tiny are impossible in Malifaux.

However, I have never seen a police officer ride a tiny horse. And there is a reason for it. Tiny horses aren't very imposing. And I would be really, really surprised if Nathan (or whoever) gave the sculptor the order to make them ride a pony. I would be surprised if the sculptor thought that it was a good idea to make these minis ride ponies and be really tiny people in general.

So yeah, I rather believe that the mistake was done in scaling rather than in art direction.

But again, if you like how, e.g., McCabe rides a big horse and the minions ride ponies, that's ok. He is a Master so him being more imposing could even be seen as a perk. But I just find that those tiny people on even tinier horses looks silly and I find it very unlikely that it was the intention. I might be wrong but I'd rather I wasn't.

[TheJoyInGaming]

11 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but ponies and horses are the same species, right? And Shetland ponies are barely over a meter tall. So yeah, it's possible to have silly tiny horses. Or you can come up with some other explanation because of magic.

So I'm definitely not saying that horses that tiny are impossible in Malifaux.

However, I have never seen a police officer ride a tiny horse. And there is a reason for it. Tiny horses aren't very imposing. And I would be really, really surprised if Nathan (or whoever) gave the sculptor the order to make them ride a pony. I would be surprised if the sculptor thought that it was a good idea to make these minis ride ponies and be really tiny people in general.

So yeah, I rather believe that the mistake was done in scaling rather than in art direction.

But again, if you like how, e.g., McCabe rides a big horse and the minions ride ponies, that's ok. He is a Master so him being more imposing could even be seen as a perk. But I just find that those tiny people on even tinier horses looks silly and I find it very unlikely that it was the intention. I might be wrong but I'd rather I wasn't.

I don't like the look of the Mounted Guardsman. I agree they could be larger. This is my personal opinion though and it is important to understand the distinction between proof and a personal opinion. It is equally important to realize that to throw around such strong words as "Atrocious" in response to a perceived mistake, when you have nothing except your personal opinion to substantiate it, is at the very least disrespectful. Wyrd deserves the same respect that you are challenging us to uphold. They are also human beings on the other side of the internet. Even if you believe that it was a scaling mistake then there are better ways to go about promoting discussion on the topic. 

[Absolution Black]

I don't think math was getting personal. He stated his opinion that he felt they were atrocious. He didn't then rant that wyrd were terrible etc etc.

He then went on to give other examples outside of wyrd so you can hardly call it a witch hunt. And there have been issues with wyrd scaling before, whether intentional or not. 

I personally can't see what he has done wrong. It's criticism, yes, but I'm sure wyrd can take it. It might actually prove useful.

 

 

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

I don't like the look of the Mounted Guardsman. I agree they could be larger. This is my personal opinion though and it is important to understand the distinction between proof and a personal opinion. It is equally important to realize that to throw around such strong words as "Atrocious" in response to a perceived mistake, when you have nothing except your personal opinion to substantiate it, is at the very least disrespectful. Wyrd deserves the same respect that you are challenging us to uphold. They are also human beings on the other side of the internet. Even if you believe that it was a scaling mistake then there are better ways to go about promoting discussion on the topic. 

First of all, I didn't call Wyrd atrocious nor anyone working there. I didn't insult any of them. I called the scale mistake atrocious and I do consider it as such. You are free to disagree with me on that. But one reason for me to use such a strong word is because I expect a high standard from Wyrd and also because this isn't the first time they've had a scale problem but I, subjectively, consider this probably the worst of the bunch.

But do I understand you correctly, that you consider it likely that Wyrd wanted the horses of the Mounted Guard to be tiny?

Second, I have made mistakes in my job. In fact, I will be trying to fix one tomorrow. I want people to tell me if I make a mistake and I try to learn from it and not do it again (sometimes doing it again, though!). Yet I consider myself good at my job (as does my boss, for example). When we're talking about business, I think that honest feedback is very important and critique of one's work shouldn't be taken personally.

[Bengt]

5 hours ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

With regards to Reva i don't think that was a sizing issue either. Giving the photo of the horse i believe it is to be a specter that Reva rides. I think this is supported through her own upgrade Beyond Death where she is able to charge through anything, usually something only incorporeal models can similarly do. A specter would not need to be the size of the horse Lucas McCabe need ride. This is speculation on my end though as i do not have the Ripples book and don't know if the fluff says anything about her horse. BTW i do happen to love Reva and her horse.

Reva rides a living horse in her story, the size of the horse is not commented on as far as I remember, but both her and Vincent rides it together at one point so it can't be too small. Mechanically she can't normally charge though terrain or models, only when using that trigger so it seems more likely to me that it's still a living horse that Reva occasionally turns ethereal (along with her herself since they can move through solid things of any size).