Having Serious Issues Against Gremlins

[JarnabyBones]

So I've been playing Malifaux for around a year (well, playing again, its a long and uninteresting story). I play exclusively Neverborn. I'm not a fantastic player, but I'm not a terrible player either. I have no issues playing against any faction, except Gremlins. I really hate people who make casual unbalanced accusations as most of the time its a lack of imagination. In this case though I really struggle to see a pathway to victory when my opponent is a skilled Gremlin player. When I first started playing I heard some people talk about how OP gremlins were, but I also heard others say they were terrible so I assumed a balance there. But after going against them enough times I, frustratingly, am starting to agree that there are balance issues. Being able to buy up to 6 stuffed piglets for 2ss each is ridiculous. Even if ALL they did was given an activation that would be good. But they can deny schemes like Convict just by existing. If you can reliably kill them from range they will run up and tarpit you, and the fact that their explosion on dying is OPTIONAL is even more ridiculous, since you can't even force them to explode by killing them next to their own models. Add in a Pigapult, which is ludicrously low cost for what it does, and you now have 7 activations for 20ss which can deal MINIMUM 3 attacks from 24" away without requiring LoS which have a decent likelihood of blasting. Rooster Riders are ridiculous for 6ss cost models. Combined with the presence of Dumb Luck and Bayou Two Card on most of the faction I don't see what they don't do better than everyone else. High number of activations, essentially 3 ap for their entire faction in the form of reckless, insane damage output for what in my opinion is minimal cost, initiative control, hand control, high speed.

 

So I'm not trying to be a whiner. I just am at my wit's end. I've asked experience players I know, I've asked forums on Facebook, I've asked my local henchmen. How do you beat Gremlins? I've been told to take WP attack models, but on a whole I actually don't find their WP THAT low. I've been told to isolate and kill off key models, but I'm completely unsure as to how to even get close. Manipulative, Mimic's Blessing, and Perfect Camouflage are all basically useless since nothing important on the Gremlins' side will happen before I'm completely finished activating.

 

The only things I've come up with so far are things like Tuco, which can alpha strike the pigapult with Rets Eye from the shadows and hopefully take out a few other models with blasts, but if you lose the deployment flip then that strategy goes out the window, and even if you succeed Tuco for the Pigapult isn't an even trade. Zoraida seems to be a really good master against them. Obey's can make Stuffed Pigs go off, I think, and turn Rooster Riders back on their own with 1ap charges. Collodi could do that too I suppose and could bring Vasalisa along for more straight Obeys.

So.... what do you guys have? Considering posting this in the Gremlin forums too. I'm not saying the game is broken, or even that Gremlins are definitely unbalanced, but curious how others feel on the subject and to know if anyone has figured out a way around these issues. I'm very interested in figuring out a way through this problem rather than saying its a balance issue, I'm just becoming exasperated trying to see the balance and failing.

[Hateful Darkblack]

I know that in tournaments, Gremlins do about as well as any other Faction, maybe a little behind Neverborn, but not much.

Activation control is definitely an advantage in Malifaux, and Gremlins are very good at it, but it's not the only advantage.

Stuffed Piglets are best killed with ranged attacks, ideally when they're in the back line. But often you can kind of ignore them and go after key positions instead.

What Master do you play? It may be that the main thing you need is to learn more of your Master's tricks.

[JarnabyBones]

1 hour ago, Hateful Darkblack said:

I know that in tournaments, Gremlins do about as well as any other Faction, maybe a little behind Neverborn, but not much.

Activation control is definitely an advantage in Malifaux, and Gremlins are very good at it, but it's not the only advantage.

Stuffed Piglets are best killed with ranged attacks, ideally when they're in the back line. But often you can kind of ignore them and go after key positions instead.

What Master do you play? It may be that the main thing you need is to learn more of your Master's tricks.

The fact that they don't steamroll everything is my main point that keeps me from thinking they are unbalanced. And to be fair we have one of the best players in the country, who also happens to play Gremlins, in my meta and coming to our tourneys, so perhaps my perspective is skewed.

I agree piglets are best dealt with from range, but what decent ranged options do we have in Neverborn?

My best masters right now are Lilith, Titania, and Zoraida. Dreamer is in practice. I have access to Pandora and Lynch but little experience yet.

[Wolfpact]

Now, two caveats: I'm new, and I'm inarguably a better player than my regular opponent, so some of this may come to outplay. But I play 'Born and he plays Gremlins (exclusively, in his case); its incredibly rare that I'm not wholly out-activated.

 

You have Lynch? Lynch is who I started with, and he's made life miserable for aforementioned opponents' greenskins.

 

Now, my usual answer for being out-activated? Kill the weak activations. If you have Lynch, I assume you have Illuminated and I know you have Huggy. Get them in range to threaten, then watch the Horror duels commence - just beware of Lenny, obviously.

 

Aiming for the healers is also important, always but especially against the Grems.

[chryspainthemum]

I like Pandora for most things, but for Gremlins... yea... their Wp is abysmal, not sure what you mean by 'not that low'. And while they will outactivate you hard first turn, after that you just use Mood Swing to dictate their activation order (to an extent).

 

Rooster Riders are total bullshit. D:

[Nical]

If you think you can't solve problems by our own models, take some mercenaries.

[-Loki-]

1 hour ago, chryspainthemum said:

I like Pandora for most things, but for Gremlins... yea... their Wp is abysmal, not sure what you mean by 'not that low'. And while they will outactivate you hard first turn, after that you just use Mood Swing to dictate their activation order (to an extent).

 

Rooster Riders are total bullshit. D:

Most people take Liquid Bravery on their master when they see Neverborn as their opponent. This makes Pandora much less effective against them.

[Trixter]

8 hours ago, JarnabyBones said:

My best masters right now are Lilith, Titania, and Zoraida. Dreamer is in practice. I have access to Pandora and Lynch but little experience yet.

With Lilith you should practice with Illusionary Forest and Tangle Shadows. Place key enemy model in your gang and kill, repeat. With Lilith's 4SS cash you should have at least 8 model on the table.

8 hours ago, JarnabyBones said:

I agree piglets are best dealt with from range, but what decent ranged options do we have in Neverborn?

My best masters right now are Lilith, Titania, and Zoraida...

With Granny Z you have expensive but extreme effective options for "gunline": doppelganger + samurai and/or McTavish and/or Hans.

Also voodoo doll and 15-inch placement provide you access to irritate key model even in they deployment. Especially with protection from Wildgeist, placed "anywhere" by Bad Juju upgrade. 

---

Of course that's all work well "on paper" but NB really have much possibilities and you just need more tests and practice. Good luck!

P.S. games with strongest players it's the best way to get experience.

[Ludvig]

I don't have a ton of experience as neverborn against gremlins but McTavish and two-three waldgeists have been a serious speed bump in the few games I've played. My opponent (who is a better player than me) has had trouble dealing with the armour and negatives along with the long engagement ranges. They will be forced to activate before everything dangerous has gone but you can usually charge/walk up and engage the most potent threats so they need to walk to engage you. Place a couple of enemy models with 1" engagement within your 4" engagement and try to block yourself in with engaged models so the unactivated enemies can't see or reach you if you can't engage them. Zoraida could also be a good master since she can obey the enemy roosters or bring her own. Bad Juju with eternal fiend and fears given form can sometimes be put into a nice position to force a lot of duels if they spam cheap models. Anything with fears given form can be useful against massed models and gremlins have decent WP but just as crappy df as anyone else.
As for gremlin WP I wholeheartedly agree, their usual suspects (most notably Francois) actually have a higher average WP than guild and neverborn equivalents. A few of their minions are low WP but a competent gremlin can work around that.

Never forget that if the pigapult sacs a stuffed piglet it gets -1 sh and can't cheat damage which makes it harder for it to get blasts. Using silurids or gupps as your scheme runners can also mess with the pigapult since it can't ignore LoS to those models. A freikorp trapper or two can mess with rooster riders something fierce since they will be rampaging through their own models if they're not careful. Lilith should be able to take a riled up rooster rider and swap it around on the board, possibly in conjunction with using her forests so it has to charge against friendlies instead of your models.

[Ludvig]

Depending on the board you can have some fun with nephilim too. The mature is terrifying, has armour and black blood and min damage enough to one-shot regular bayous (as well as a healthy ml score and built in positives so you might not need to cheat). Place it behind a house and when some gremlins come close you fly over it and engage a few of them. "Normal" models (if gremlins have such a thing) trying to hurt it will do about as much damage to their own gremlin pals as to the nephilim. The really good ones like Francois will hurt you though.

[Adran]

Pigapult is a tough cookie, but there are diffrent ways of dealing with it. Engage it, and it can't then shoot. Something liek a teror tot can probably reach it on turn 2 if you want. And as a bonus, if they kill the tot, then the pigapult is almost dead thanks to the black blood. 

Lileth can tangle shadows the pigapult away, and if you pull it into your forces and away from its ammo, then thats 20 ss of models largely wasted. (I also disagree with your Tuco for a pigapult is not a good trade of Neverborn.)

If he is using stuffed piglets, thn he can't cheat the daamge flips, and has a lower Sh. be prepared to cheat aggressivelt on the df flips in the early turns, and it won't have so much effect. 

be prepared to make multiple attack vectors ont he pigapult, as he will probably be able to kill off one of them. 

Blast Damage will also mess up the stuffed pig ammo for the pigapult as you can easily hit the pigapult and blast on to the surrounding models. 

I've also used the Charge through trigger on a mature nephlim to cover the board on the first turn and engage the pigapult as well as leaving a tail of destruction in my wake. I placed my terror tots in the right place to get the charges until he was going to be able to get to the enemy. A mature nephilm engaged with 6 bayou gremlins and a pigapult does not make a gremlin day. 

EDIT- Charge through is  enemy only. You can use Tangle shadows to move the mature far enough upfield to let it start the charge itself. 

Gremlins have some of the highest WP stats in the game. They also have some of the lowest, and the low stats are on the common minions. 

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I've also used the Charge through trigger on a mature nephlim to cover the board on the first turn and engage the pigapult as well as leaving a tail of destruction in my wake. I placed my terror tots in the right place to get the charges until he was going to be able to get to the enemy. A mature nephilm engaged with 6 bayou gremlins and a pigapult does not make a gremlin day. 

I'm fairly certain you can't declare charge through against friendly models so if you mean that you declared it against your tots you have some apoligising to do.

[Adran]

Ignore, I'm stupid

[Ludvig]

7 minutes ago, Adran said:

Ignore, I'm stupid

I've theory-fauxed that same charge through tactic and gotten excited until double-checking the rulebook at least two times since m2e, I keep forgetting it  

[JarnabyBones]

20 hours ago, Adran said:

Lileth can tangle shadows the pigapult away, and if you pull it into your forces and away from its ammo, then thats 20 ss of models largely wasted. (I also disagree with your Tuco for a pigapult is not a good trade of Neverborn.)

 

 

You are braver than I attempting to Tangle a Pigapult. Ca5 vs WP10 isn't gonna go well most of the time 

[JarnabyBones]

Thanks for the good advice everyone. I have some new tactics to try out!

[JarnabyBones]

I also love Waldgeists like many of the suggestions, but haven't overly relied on them since my first game against our local Gremlin player saw a Waldgeists one-shot killed by Somer, lol

[Ludvig]

10 hours ago, JarnabyBones said:

I also love Waldgeists like many of the suggestions, but haven't overly relied on them since my first game against our local Gremlin player saw a Waldgeists one-shot killed by Somer, lol

Wouldn't that same attack have oneshotted most models? A waldgeist takes 9dmg to remove I believe?

[D_acolyte]

I like hitting them hard and fast, the 2 gremlin players I play vs tend to crumble in on themselves after loosing a tough model early like Gracie turn 1. Vs roosters, I like shooting them while they are closer to the enemy then me, thank you angel eyes.

I do not play Zoraida but I know she still works well with a mature nephilim.

I am going to working on an anti Zipp post soon as I have played vs him a fare bit.

[Four_N_Six]

We are a very fast striking faction, very aggressive, but its balanced out by being easy to kill.

Zipp is a rough one to worry about.  Take out Earl first, I'll tell you that.  He can guarantee Zipp his  for defense and Ml triggers, and give him  for the activation, which you don't want.  In most cases, Zipp is going to have the advantage over you when using his Ml attack, at best you can tie his stat.  He also avoids all defensive triggers, his attack can't be reduced, and he repositions you wherever the Hell he wants.  I think a sustained attack on him is your best bet, but he's slippery as Hell so it'll take a few models to do for the most part.

On the note of killing Earl first I will say this: When I'm playing as Zipp, if Frame for Murder is in the pool, it is absolutely going onto Earl.  It leaves my opponent with 2 options.  Either leave him alive and let Zipp have  for what he needs for the whole round, or kill him and give me 2 VP.

[D_acolyte]

I keep killing/winning vs Zipp but have noticed a few things. I eventually want to do a post about each of the new masters and how we can beat them as there general releases show up, for some I have not played vs I want to do it in the same month. What I have found with Zipp is not taking out Earl but rather the Skeeters and Sparks. Slow down the rest of his force, Zipp is a pain and hard to pin down but if he is trying to say by Earl that limits him some; where the rest is of his crew will scatter. If they scatter we have a good chance of loosing the mobility game. Also Retribution eye on a heavy hitter, if you discard it when you want to charge zipp he can then do no defensive or wp triggers.

[Four_N_Six]

If your Zipp opponent is limited by staying near Earl then he's using Earl wrong.  Earl places in base contact with a friendly Sky Pirate after it walks, which Zipp is.  The mask trigger on Zipp's attack lets him walk, which is 8", and Earl gets to come along for the ride.  Which means Zipp can hit and displace 3 of your models a turn if that's all they need to do.  5" placement is extremely bad in a lot of situations, especially when he can connect the attack easily enough.  Not saying your plan doesn't work, just that you've gotten lucky against Earl, it seems.

[D_acolyte]

1 hour ago, Four_N_Six said:

If your Zipp opponent is limited by staying near Earl then he's using Earl wrong.  Earl places in base contact with a friendly Sky Pirate after it walks, which Zipp is.  The mask trigger on Zipp's attack lets him walk, which is 8", and Earl gets to come along for the ride.  Which means Zipp can hit and displace 3 of your models a turn if that's all they need to do.  5" placement is extremely bad in a lot of situations, especially when he can connect the attack easily enough.  Not saying your plan doesn't work, just that you've gotten lucky against Earl, it seems.

The issue is not that he is not bringing Earl along it is that generally ending his placements afterwards near still leaves him in danger from something. Also Earls aura requires him to activate and through it up, which means you might not be using him to heal others.

[D_acolyte]

Lets face it as far as totems goes, Earl is rather good. Between healing constructs, giving masks and being immune to a good number of things he is a nice support model and all you need to do is get him in the right place before it is to late.

As for Zipp, it depends on the scheme pool but often I ignore him and kill all the others.

[rhysmcdo]

All of the advice in this thread is terrible. If you want to beat this opponent, watch his YouTube videos, he tells you how to do it.