Lilith, whom to add??

[Frozen Feet]

Hello friends o' Black Blood.

I'm interrested in playing a highly competitive Lilith crew.

First:       Is that possible?

Second:   Which models do i have to hire for that (in general)?

Third:      Which playstyle is the 'best'? Straightforward/Grow/Hide&Run etc...

 

Thanks Tobi aka Frozen Feet

[admiralvorkraft]

Note: I don't play Lilith, but she's on my list of masters to focus on, so I've done quite a bit of theory crafting with her.

I think Lilith can run really well in-theme, which is one of the things that draws me to her, so I would start with her crew box (obviously) the Nephilim box (two Youngs and a Mature, I think) plus some combination of the starter set models/Tuco/Black Blood Shamans. The only out of theme purchase I'd consider is a box of Waldgeists, they bring some much needed staying power and their Germinate action really helps Lilith's board control/positioning schtick.

[bertmac]

She works well with everything in the faction pretty much.

[DaveTheBrave]

I wouldn´t go for a Grow list in competitive play. Thats a 3rd scheme to fulfill and costs too many APs to do it.

My autotakes for tournaments are

- Doppelganger (7SS!! for him are a joke)

- Nekima (as a beater, I don´t like Teddy although he works as well)

- Johann (most of the time in my list for condition removal and with Retributions Eye)

Than I add Waldgeists, Graves, Tots or Silurids, McTavish Illuminated, Hooded Rider... to the list, depending on shemes and strategies.

 Best way to play her in my experience is to play her as a denial master. Don`t play her too agressive. Wait for your prey, Wicked Vines enemy crew and kill with Nekima.

Lilith is a Competitive Master, there are strategies where other Neverborn Masters are stonger. But Lilith is so much cooler.

 

 

[CLOAKS]

Lilith is my main master at the moment (im still new) but here is some good points / my current crew.

1. Yes you can play her at a high level

2. Crew:

• Nekima/Dopple/Johan - for the reasons listed above (these pretty much always come)
• prime magic - because always
• for minions.. 
  • mysterious effigy for 0 ability / focusing on schemes
  • I'll take terror tots/silurid if the schemes call for high movement
  • waldgeist/illuminated seem to be a little more durable if you need them to stick around / tie up models

3. I tend to play her using the illusionary forest ability and heavily focusing on wicked vines/tangle shadows as more of a support role for the crew - as I understand this is also common in higher level tournament play with Lilith

 

[-Loki-]

9 hours ago, DaveTheBrave said:

I wouldn´t go for a Grow list in competitive play. Thats a 3rd scheme to fulfill and costs too many APs to do it.

If the schemes are killy schemes, you'll be doing what you need for a Grow list to work by default - kill things, but now you get new models or upgrade them for doing what you were doing anyway. If you're playing schemes that don't require you to kill, yes, you're adding another requirement for yourself to accomplish. So Grow lists aren't immediately extra effort to make work.

[Thana.]

Dave and Cloak's advice is solid. 

Minor point: Cherub is competitive with pmagic in the GG2016 schemes

Upgradewise, Beckon Malifaux is the only mandatory one although Wings of Darkness is pretty hard to pass up. She's also perfectly fine saving the ss and not running a third upgrade. 

Even in killy schemes a grow list either requires you to hire models you wouldn't otherwise hire (young) or else play scheme runners with additional restrictions on where they move and when they activate (tots). You can, of course, treat any growing as icing on the cake but not something you play around which, imo, was already the best way to view growing and has had its opportunity cost lowered by using the thousand faces upgrade.   

Good luck!

[Ergonomic Cat]

I find Mr. Graves to also be excellent in Lilith lists.  Lilith gives mobility.  Mr. Graves gives mobility.  Doppleganger can copy mobility.  If you have Nekima in the list, you can put her so many places on the board so fast.  And Nekima is very very deadly.

As above, Beckon Malifaux is mandatory, and I can't imagine playing her without Wings of Darkness and Primordial Magic.  

[Frozen Feet]

Thanks a lot, for all your thoughts and advices..

 

[Mutter]

On 18.10.2016 at 6:48 PM, Ergonomic Cat said:

... , and I can't imagine playing her without Wings of Darkness and Primordial Magic.  

And I can't imagine running her without the Cherub. Seriously, that chubby little thing makes Headhunter and so many Schemes absolutely trivial. There's tons of stuff in my Lilith lists that I really, really love, but the Cherub has to be right at the top of that list. Sometimes, when I consider other masters for any given S&Ss, they don't make the cut simply because they can't bring the Cherub.

 

So I'm seriously bewildered by this forum's undying love for the PM ...

[Ergonomic Cat]

PM gives you Rush of Magic, which is worth about half a soulstone a turn.  He gives you a very safe activation (with his ability to go wherever and hide), and he gives you a scheme marker once in a game.  And if you want to, you can make something insignificant for the game.  He's real real nice.  And since I usually take Wings of Darkness on her, for 1 soulstone, I can draw 4 extra cards during set up.  That's great.

The Cherub does seem useful though.  I don't even own it, though, so I just ignore it.

[Mutter]

I get that the PM is good. I'd use it if it wasn't a totem. For me personally, it's just that the Cherub is so much more useful in my lists, that those PM benefits pale in comparison. But I acknowledge that I seem to be in the minority here - I just don't understand WHY.

[TeddyBear]

Lilith  (7 ss pool)

Beckon Malifaux (1ss)

Living Blade (2ss)

Wicked Mistress (1ss)

 

Primordial Magic (2ss)

 

Bad Juju (8ss)

Eternal Fiend (2ss)

Fear given form (1ss)

 

 

Mysterious Emissary (10

Conflux of blood(0ss)

 

Silurid (7ss)

Waldgeist (6ss)

Waldgeist (6ss)

 

I can not tell you if this is a highly competitive list as i haven't experience of other players; but in my experience it is a bomb, however,i hope to give some ideas

[-Loki-]

3 hours ago, Ergonomic Cat said:

PM gives you Rush of Magic, which is worth about half a soulstone a turn.  He gives you a very safe activation (with his ability to go wherever and hide), and he gives you a scheme marker once in a game.  And if you want to, you can make something insignificant for the game.  He's real real nice.  And since I usually take Wings of Darkness on her, for 1 soulstone, I can draw 4 extra cards during set up.  That's great.

The Cherub does seem useful though.  I don't even own it, though, so I just ignore it.

The Primordial Magic is the safe totem. It's hard to not use it well and it is mostly passive. The Cherub takes more effort to use well, but it's still good.

[Mutter]

9 hours ago, -Loki- said:

The Cherub takes more effort to use well, but it's still good.

Yeah, more work, but when it works - it SINGS! ^^

[Frozen Feet]

Any ideas how to play a reliable grow list?

Anybody out there playing that type of crew?

Thanks Tobi

[Treehouse]

Problem with a reliable grow list is that growing is not reliable.

Or actually, it takes a lot of resources, planin, positioning and other factors for it to work and if it works, it's not necessarily competitive sheme wise.

 

Models to consider:

- Nekima. Take the Grow upgrade on her. Hope to spawn Terror Tots.

- Barbaros. Though I don't really rate him high enough and Nekima is already expensive.

- Young Nephilim

 

Drawbacks:

- you tend to become religious about growing models that you forget about the shemes

- if you don't grow models you might be at a disadvantage because you invested stones for that build

- AP efficiency. If the shemes don't require killing, why waste AP of your Tots / Young to be close to an enemy (and not die) and also most likely AP of Nekima to kill models for them?

- when you grow a Tot, you have a sheme runner less and a beater more, who is slow when he is summoned.

 

Actually, it seems to make more sense to try and grow Young into Mature, because both are beaters. But then you are very dependent on crew selection of your opponent. Plus, unlike summoners, you don't get extra models, but trade models. So you don't gain anything from it concerning activations.

There is a great Podcast (Shemes & Stones) on Lilith, where they are discussing this.

There, it is also mentioned that Dreamer might be the better grow-list master, as he can un-slow your grown Youngs and also summon in more models. Also, you might want to try Nekima with him anyways.

[Mutter]

5 hours ago, Frozen Feet said:

Any ideas how to play a reliable grow list?

Anybody out there playing that type of crew?

Thanks Tobi

This seems to work pretty well for @Mastershake:

 

[marke83]

How vital would Nekima be with Lilith? Wouldn't Barbaros or even Teddy suffice? The thing is, I don't like that expensive models on principal who mostly just beat things, and furthermore she's kinda boring to me somehow.

[Ergonomic Cat]

Barbaros is much more a tank/control model.  He can do some damage, but he's more about moving stuff around and drawing attention.  Nekima draws attention simply by being such a threat.  

As for a grow list - Black Blood Shaman is pretty much an auto-include if you're just focusing on Grow.  I think the key to making Grow work, though, is not making it your only goal.  Make it a thing that you get occasionally.  I had a lot of success with Angel Eyes.  She can take Rapid Growth, and it's *far* easier for her to be in position to pass that kill off to a Terror Tot (more realistically a Young Neph, unless you take a Tot specifically to follow Angel Eyes around).  If the Young Neph is engaged in a line with Angel Eyes, and Angel Eyes is at the end of her Rapid Growth bubble, she's still pretty safe.  She can take 2 rifle shots and a handgun shot, which is very likely to kill whatever the Neph is fighting.  And she doesn't randomize, so she can do it.

To me, if you're planning to take Angel Eyes already, the extra cost of Rapid Growth and a Tot is probably worth considering.  

[feagaur]

I've tried a few variations on a grow list and found that there are basically two ways of concentrating on growing.

One is to start with lots of tots so run Lilith with beckon malifaux, rapid growth and summon the blood, nekima with true mother, a black blood shaman and 6 tots. This way you have multi ways of growing them and one way of making more. It also means you have lots of activation and all those sprints. With this I try and always produce any to replace any grown ones. so you're not loosing scheme runners. It also frees your 3 other models to be wherever theyre needed to help out the tots and grow them.

The other way is to try and get young to mature as well as producing tots. So I'd run something like Lilith with Beckon Malifaux and summon the blood, Nekima with True mother and Rapid Growth, Black blood shaman and 4 young nephilim. With this I'd be running the young with Nekima so that when she killed something (and she will) the young get fast and if the target was large enough, will mature. You could always just concentrate on maturing 2 young whilst the others went off and did something else. Have any tots that grow producing markers and then growing.

Or you can mix and match, adding in other models (Mr Graves is always a good choice) to suite.