Papa in a Box

[tomjoad]

5 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Wouldn't Mei Feng be pretty good against Sonnia, btw? She can shield her force rather effectively from ranged threats (and the shield lasts until her next Activation - though you can get around it by using double Focus or SS and Focus) and she herself is pretty good in putting the hurt in (especially on stuff like Austringers). Oh, and she can be really quick on her feet. Sparks could keep Sonnia from being Pushed around so you could lock her in place more easily (just keep Sparks alive so avoid Franc). Oh, and Metal Gamin make short work of the Watcher.

But really, the best way to beat that list is to join it! Play two or three games with it and you will have a far better understanding of what makes it tick - what gives it trouble and what its strongpoints are.

My line of thought here may be born from my inexperience with Mei, but she always feels like her abilities want her to do too many different things. Specifically, you can either vent steam to protect your crew (in which case they're likely to be bunched a bit which can be deadly is Sonnia DOES manage to hit) OR you can go down a path of scrap/constructs to beat up austringers, but you can't ever do both. She just feels like her strengths aren't focussed enough (although, tbh, just venting three times to put Sonnia/whoever on  sounds like it could be good enough, with samurai and snipers in the bubble to force them to come to you).

[InvokeChaos]

Just now, tomjoad said:

My line of thought here may be born from my inexperience with Mei, but she always feels like her abilities want her to do too many different things. Specifically, you can either vent steam to protect your crew (in which case they're likely to be bunched a bit which can be deadly is Sonnia DOES manage to hit) OR you can go down a path of scrap/constructs to beat up austringers, but you can't ever do both. She just feels like her strengths aren't focussed enough (although, tbh, just venting three times to put Sonnia/whoever on  sounds like it could be good enough, with samurai and snipers in the bubble to force them to come to you).

I was actually thinking this very thing. But maybe it's worth a test run. Sue would be a welcome addition here for his anti-cast bubble as well.
Double vent steam, walk. Sue walks as casts. Snipers and Archers maybe.  Samurai seems really good, but I think popping the Blot the Sky on Mei (if we're going this bubble route) would be better. 

Plus Sue can wear smoke grenades. So even with focus, they'd be on negatives for everyone.

I know this isn't necessarily an ideal list, you need to get schemes and stuff done, but if you face guild in a center based schemepool, I would say Sonnia is a strong pick due to needing to bunch, so maybe this is actually viable in that case?

Also -

That brings up an interesting question as well:

So let's say Mei Fang vents three times and Sue pops his aura with smoke grenades.  The max number of  or  you can have is three. But do you still get all the others when things start cancelling out?

Sonnia can get the positive flips for high WP. Then again for focus. So she has .  Would Sue in this situation only force a  on Sonnia, or would she still get the  because Smoke  Grenades and Sue's anti-cast aura eat up her   and then triple vent steam still imposes the three ?

 

[tomjoad]

6 minutes ago, InvokeChaos said:

I know this isn't necessarily an ideal list, you need to get schemes and stuff done, but if you face guild in a center based schemepool, I would say Sonnia is a strong pick due to needing to bunch, so maybe this is actually viable in that case?

 

I have a friend (who doesn't post on here that often) who has had great success with a similar Mei Fang list. As I recall, it'll be a sniper, samurai, 2 archers, and Fuhatsu with Blot the Sky and then he moves them in a group to gun down whatever he wants, with almost no chance of being shot back. I haven't tried anything similar myself, so I can't comment on it much (Asami showed up just as I was getting close to painting Mei ), but it looks very grindy but is maybe the best gunline the Thunders can muster.

[Math Mathonwy]

14 minutes ago, tomjoad said:

My line of thought here may be born from my inexperience with Mei, but she always feels like her abilities want her to do too many different things. Specifically, you can either vent steam to protect your crew (in which case they're likely to be bunched a bit which can be deadly is Sonnia DOES manage to hit) OR you can go down a path of scrap/constructs to beat up austringers, but you can't ever do both. She just feels like her strengths aren't focussed enough (although, tbh, just venting three times to put Sonnia/whoever on  sounds like it could be good enough, with samurai and snipers in the bubble to force them to come to you).

The idea would be to move a Construct aggressively forward, Railwalk Mei Feng there and then Vent Steam twice. Move the rest of your force into the protective bubble (preferably have the models in cover as well) or into other advantageous locations. Second turn the protective bubble is still there until Mei Feng activates and once she does, she ties up Sonnia. Or one of her other models ties up Sonnia (Sparks maybe). Then the Protective bubble isn't necessary any more as Sonnia is engaged and can't go crazy. Or she might even be dead if Mei Feng Recalled her Training and went to town. Or Franc might be dead.

[Gottkaiser]

3 hours ago, InvokeChaos said:

Sonnia can get the positive flips for high WP. Then again for focus. So she has .  Would Sue in this situation only force a  on Sonnia, or would she still get the  because Smoke  Grenades and Sue's anti-cast aura eat up her   and then triple vent steam still imposes the three ?

 

It would be . You don't cut off excess or until the very end. So you get the maximum of and , let them cancel each other out until there is only one type left and then you cut down to the maximum of three.

 

I haven't played against Guild very often, but I think I would try to kill the death marshal asap. With 10T, you have a lot of mobility and should be able to get to him, whereever he is. Sensei Yu, Shadow Emissary. If you want to make him sad, kill him with a Guild hound with a light sabre. I found out that enemies expecially dislike being killed by a 3 Points Model...

[rvdbarnes]

7 hours ago, Blacks85 said:

If you don't, this means you have to take a WP duel between DM and papa loco. DM is strongly ahead because it is 5 vs 4 with parity staying in the box.

(Beside turning jokers and screwing up your project completely..both of them.)

This means you go for luck and you'll have to cheat a low card for DM (that you might now have or used with Sonia "discard 2") or an high / medium for Papa loco which is precious.

Cards are not infinite and they are very precious for Sonia.

This is very true.

Quite often, you will want to slingshot papa in to the enemy lines with your DM to blow himself up and finish off what Sonnia has started, which means you want him in the box until you can move in with your Unimpeded.

After the activation flip for keeping him in the box, the only way to get him out is to target someone else with the pine box, he'll then be out regardless of the outcome  as the unbury is triggered upon taking the action.

 

Yes, I'm guilty of running a very similar list

[hydranixx]

12 hours ago, tomjoad said:

My line of thought here may be born from my inexperience with Mei, but she always feels like her abilities want her to do too many different things. Specifically, you can either vent steam to protect your crew (in which case they're likely to be bunched a bit which can be deadly is Sonnia DOES manage to hit) OR you can go down a path of scrap/constructs to beat up austringers, but you can't ever do both.

Well, seeing as Vapormancy allows both of her Ml actions to add one free stack of Vent Steam after damaging, if you're specifically playing Mei as a mobile denial piece, its feasible to do both at the same time. Between Porkchop and Railwalk you can essentially place her about 16" for one of her AP's, positioned around Porkchop's base as required, to set up 2x Vent Steam on her friends, or charge enemy models and stacking it up directly onto them.

If you do charge, consider cheating your own damage to weak on the first attack if it would one shot the enemy model; this way you can ensure a second attack and that double stack of Vent Steam. It's pretty solid against a lot of Guild in general. Her threat range can get to roughly 24" - 26" at peak depending on terrain and whether Porkchops dies before she gets to Railwalk onto him. 

It's a cheap build, if all you're focusing on is being a mobile bunker for your crew. Recalled Training + Vapormancy is a very affordable 2ss, but you do have an extra slot free at your disposal if you want it.

Wings of Wind can reposition your Mei bunker at the end of the round while keeping the Vent Steam stacks, as well as pushing around models that don't want to normally move, like Snipers, so they can keep up with the bunker. I think it's worthy of consideration. 

[EnternalVoid]

Well I did say I would try to follow up, though there were a number of posts to read first.  Anyhow, before I go any further two things.  First I do not think this post will be as good as the others, to many things bouncing around in my head and it is more theoretical overall.  IE kind of ramblings.  Second I will state my objective in this post; to brainstorm the potential of facing this list at a tournament.  It is not hard to eventually dismantle a list on paper and figure out the tools and combination to challenge it, the problem is knowing what to do when your opponent states Guild and you have to weight the potential against possible facing an entirely different crew.  I mean you might get lucky and see your opponent took the same list all three previous rounds, or you could be the first round contender.  It is easy to fall into the practice of merely crafting theoretical Counter lists, the problem is you will generally not know you are actually facing it till crews are revealed.

So in that regard, what do I consider when my opponent declares Guild?  Always I think of the Strat and Schemes but there are so many it is hard to put down all those thoughts, so instead I will focus on master options that will go through my head. 

1. The first master I always consider is Mei Feng.  The Guild has some solid range options and a couple mean Cast actions so Vent Steam is gold to prevent key models from being stripped to hard early on.  If my opponent decides to go the Melee route then at least it means we are meeting on a more even ground *or in my favor if I can help it*.  As already mentioned a Double Vent Steam use can really hinder attacks as they will need a double positive to even it out and if cover is involved as well it is that much worse.  Having Vapormancy also gives you it as a trigger on both your normal Melee attacks meaning you can possible get it off in combat as well.  Against Non-Sonnia Guild it also gives you an attack with a 7 and 3" that does not mean you into base to base, though be careful as your Vent Steam will affect your own attack.  This makes Mei Feng really solid in the protection department against Sonnia, Perdita, Riflemen, and Austringers.  Sure a master like Sonnia could possible get an attack through by focusing, but to overcome double vent steam and possible cover would require her using everything she has for the one shot.  With Vapormancy and if you are willing to tag your own model with a Jackhammer kick from the trigger, you can even get a triple Vent Steam going first turn. 

After that I would fill out the crew with models that can fulfill the strat and schemes and possible deny them.  Wandering River monks are good at penetrating deep across the field, Rail Workers while slow can advance under Mei's cover and hit pretty hard for their weight class.  They also have a trigger that can pin a model in place preventing move or places from happening.  With their Hard to Kill even Francisco has to hit them at least twice.  And if they can get their trigger on the first hit there is a good chance it will take three hits to put them down.  10T brothers have a wide range of benefits from their (0) action such as their place for extra movement or even a 4" melee that is hard for your opponent to push out of.  Katanaka Sniper can provide you with some range support and with From the Shadows can possible in position to start punishing support models first turn.  Illuminated can be a fairly solid rock and under Vent Steam force your opponent to engage them in close range.  A Mechanical Porkchop can give Mei some extra jumping points and has a decent amount of life and armor.  I would try to have numbers here to a decent level, having 7-8 models besides Mei gives you some bodies just in case.  Do not gather them all around Mei though, as it will be a tempting enough target for your opponent to consider focusing enough to try and get a strait to hit flip and hit them all with one big blast.  Instead have like 3 with her and the rest far enough from each other they do not make to tempting targets.

Against Sonnia and Perdita Mei can heavily limit their offense.  Against Lady Justice her potential speed and ability to escape combat can let her pick off key models and try to remove Lady J's crew from around her.   Against Hoffman, McCabe, Lucius, or Nellie if she can get in at the right spot single use of Vent Steam can almost shut down their support game or make it costly and a double use can just shut it down.  All four of them want to be able to use their Cast actions on their friendly models, with even a single negative modifier they have to either focus, use a Soulstone, or hope to get lucky.  With a double vent steam you will make it hard for them to support any friendly model in the steam cloud.

2. The next master I have to consider is Misaki.  Not necessarily because she is good against Guild as much as if a guild list is built around a model she can throw their plans for a loop.  Against Guild I would take Stalking Bisento as I will always expect some shooting and range.  I would also likely take Recall training for the Threat it carries.  For the last upgrade I would consider Smoke & Shadow depending on the Strat and Scheme.  Being able to teleport a Torakage around could be useful for several of them, or even an Orian.  Not to mention it means I would have a model or two that can throw out two Blocking 50mm markers.  It will not stop any Austringers they might bring but it can suddenly put a damper on charges and other attacks. 

I also would have to consider Sensei Yu with the Wandering River Style.  He can really help with stuff all sorts of Strat and Scheme, whether pulling them off or stopping your opponent.  With Airburst and Gust he can target Df or Wp and get a move, possible targeting the same model for 10" of movement and slow/fast from Gust's trigger.  Guard the Stash?  He can get your models to the markers or get the enemy away.  Head Hunter?  He can move an enemy model who has already activated closer to your crew so that your opponent cannot just steal the head marker when you kill them.  On top of it he has a really high walk so late game he can always go flying away towards somewhere you need to be.  With the Torakage, Sensei Yu, and the upgrades you are looking at 20ss, plenty of space to fill out models to aim for your own goals. 

I would use Misaki like a scalpel against most Guild lists, using the Sensei Yu slingshot not to generally to go for the master but what I would deem a key model.  In the Sonnia list I would look to either take out Francisco, the Austringers, or the Watcher.  I would avoid the Death Marshal as I don't want Papa visiting me afterwards.  I would also not be afraid to have Misaki advance once first turn and go double defensive if I feel I can play the long game.  That way my opponent feels safe from the missile first turn and Sensei Yu can reposition Misaki at the end of the turn and give her Fast.  This will let her turn 2 do her hunting with Fast and Stalk already applied.  If I do go firing her off Turn 1 I will likely try to have the Torakage bury itself so it can unbury with in 6" of Misaki.  this can help her second turn catch/tie up a model or have the torakage in position for something else.  If you do decide to go after Francisco the Torakage gives you an interesting option.  If it is in Base with Sonnia then its 2" keeps one Austringer from getting her out of combat and Francisco cannot use the (0) from Hermanas Da Arms likely to remove her either.  So if he wants to push her out of combat he has to use Frank's (1) AP action for the 5" push or both Austringers.  But with Agile from the Torakage it can just walk out of combat and keep on top of Sonnia and if Misaki wants she can always charge out of combat to Sonnia as well to keep her tied down.  With Stalking Bisento's bonus to hit and damage even Francisco will not live long after to many hits.  Or you can even have Misaki go after Sonnia and not engage Francisco, so that the Torakage can engage Francisco to keep him from Flurry attacking Misaki *he can use the Austringers to move Francisco but that gives you time to get your own activations in*.  This trick works to an extent on Perdita and Francisco as well as it gives you a chance to kill Francisco earlier and keep Perdita's attention off the rest of your crew.  By keeping your target flexible to the Strat and scheme you can pick the portion of the enemy crew that is most important to earning VP.

It is important to note that who ever you have Misaki go after you want her to go after them turn 1 generally.  Luckily your opponent will generally try to activate Sonnia last so most everything else in the crew will go first.  You might not be able to draw LoS with just Sensei Yu's pushes so don't be afraid to spend 1-2 AP walking to get your charge.  Being able to be 20" from where you started the game before you charge means the sneakiest model might be within your range.  If you decide to have Misaki go after Francisco you have to wait till he has gone, two rounds of him beating on Misaki and denying SS from Sonnia will likely be to hard for her.  Your opponent might see this coming and try to use Fire Walls to block your lines of sight but as they have to be 1" from models and markers there is a decent chance Misaki can move and catch sight of her prey.  Again don't be afraid spending 1-2 AP getting in range and LoS. 

Against Lucius I would likely look to chopping him up with Stalking Bisento potentially if he does not have Surprising Loyalty.  He has a solid defense a but with the bonus from Stalking Bisento I can get around him discarding for a negative.  With only 10wds he cannot take to many hits meaning he will be using SS, which will either start killing the models around him or drain his pool.  If things get hot next turn Misaki can always charge another model to escape or use her next target trigger.  Against McCabe I would consider chopping him up as well.  The whole dismounted thing means he is hard to kill in one go but once he is dismounted he is a lot slower and it is not as easy to throw around upgrades or pull them back due to the loss of the 50mm base and Height 3.  Nellie is a rougher one as she is not so easy to kill with her ability to cheat her own damage, SS, and use Evidence to push if you fail an attack action.  It would put pressure on her but I feel you would likely be better off picking one of her beaters and denying the option.  Hoffman gets a bit rougher as Misaki does not like Armor and Hoffman likes his bubble.  Hoffman himself is to rough to take out as long as he has a model with Armor around him *the fact he can easily get Armor +2 or even +3 on his guys mean he can really reduce the damage*.  In this case Misaki would either pick off a stray model *like that Watcher that is running schemes*or wait till her crew got in there and use them to soften up guys before she finished them.  Sensei Yu would be important for pushing apart Hoffman's group to make it harder for them to support each other.

For the rest of the crew again I would look to have models that I feel can get me those VP or round out my attack options.  Yin with Smoke Bombs would be an interesting one as if Sensei Yu pushes her second turn she can actually move pretty well at hunting scheme runners and be safe from long range attacks.  It would depend on how fast I need to be whether i take her but she is an interesting one for locking down a key model.  Mostly with Misaki being a lone wolf in this case I would try to make them models that can stand on their own or with each other.

 

And that is all for Masters for the moment.  Need to finish other stuff, apparently time is a limited resource.

[trikk]

On 8.09.2016 at 4:40 AM, EnternalVoid said:

Alright, Warning up front.  This is a Long post.  I could have made it twice as long but for now I am just doing this part.

While I am not a huge fan of the Sonnia list ran I do think a lot of people underestimate it because they don't know it.  They know an aspect of the list but don't know all the parts so assumptions are made based off only what is known.  From other threads before you can get a more complete picture of the list and why it is not as easy to pin down as you think.

First, Francisco is generally in this list, that +2 Df and Wp is big for Sonnia as it pushes her Defense to a safer level and her Wp to a nasty level.  If threatened she can use her (0) action to up her defense a further 2 making it an 8 while still retaining her strong offensive Ca of 7.  In addition you will generally see Francisco also with the Hermanas Da Arms upgrade.  This lets him for a (0) action pull another friendly model 5".  This gives Francisco two ways to remove Sonnia from combat that cannot be resisted.  The second is his Enfrentate a Mi (1) AP action that jumps him to an enemy with in 7" and pushes other friendly models 5" directly away from the target.  With both of these options Francisco has the means to free Sonnia from an alpha strike type attack as you often only have 1 model going in meaning you cannot box her in.  As long as the Sonnia player is careful of terrain he will not let you pin them in a way to prevent her escape.  This is of course not even considering that with Ml7, Flurry, and a weak damage of 3 thanks to critical strike that Francisco might be able to kill the target.  So if he cannot kill it he can generally free Sonnia unless you have a trick to stop it.  On top of this he has both Dampening and Counterspell Aura abilities making it harder for certain models to threaten her and Francisco.

The next model of note is the Watcher.  He has two ways to help Sonnia ignore cover, the first is the condition on his attack, which lacks a gun icon, is a 14" range, and a Sh6.  The second is a 3" aura around him.  On top of this he has a (2) action which lets Sonnia draw LoS from him to a target.  So from a good spot he can play bird dog and make hiding from Sonnia that much harder.  To further his value he is a walk 6 model with flight so he can be good at dropping scheme markers later in the game or if not needed.  As an added bit on top of all this the Watcher is also Stubborn meaning he is difficult to Lure.

Really the Papa in the box only has to last through turn 2 to have done all it needs.  If this list has not inflicted the damage it needs by turn 3 then it has other issues besides a positive to damage.  To be honest when I have ran Sonnia I don't generally bother with the Death Marshal as I am generally happy to have the positive damage for turn 1 and 2, but this list is built around winning on the firepower or the threat of it.  As long as the Death Marshal does not spit Papa out before the end of turn 2, you will have your three turns of positive damage.  Simple fact is even if you kill the Death Marshal turn 1 or 2, he is still getting two turns of buff unless you can kill papa loco on top of it.  So unless you have the range threat to drop the DM and then Papa before early turn 2, you are hindering him but not a ton as he will generally get his two solid rounds.

The next issue after this is the Malifaux Child and the Cherufe's Imprint's Fire Wall spell.  on a 6+ and a 9+ with a positive flip he can generate two 50mm markers that are blocking and impassable.  This is to shut down lanes and cut down options of the opponent's crew.  Worse they do not go away till the model's next activation, meaning this is not an end of turn issue where you might be able to penetrate the line on initiative.  It means they can build their walls when they go down.  And if you move into a spot so they cannot put it in the same exact spot you get damaged for it.  This makes a mental game where you don't want to take the damage but it might be best to put a model in position to deny where they can be replaced.  Sonnia does not need to cast her herself as the Child can do it if they only need one set of walls.

The next wrinkle is the pair of Austringers.  This gives her attacks that do not care about LOS or cover, that have fair range, and can effectively pick away at models.  With her blast and possible burning they can add extra pressure before or after Sonnia activates.  The scarier of the two options is that they can soften up models for Sonnia to finish.  Why do it this way?  Because the Brutal Effigy lets Sonnia draw cards if she kills models.  If she drops 2-3 models on one turn she basically is refilling her hand.  In addition the Austringers can push a friendly model and help with interacting.  This lets them get the Watcher out of combat if it gets caught and keep doing schemes, or help Sonnia get out of combat when she needs it.  With two you can even double up when you really have to move.  Every push matters in this list as it keeps Sonnia's strongest attack in the game.

The final point I will mention about its construction in this post is that with the Brutal Effigy, Malifaux Child, and Watcher it gives the list a good activation count turn 1 at 9 models.  A lot of people take 8 models, meaning even if they activate first they will get last activation turn 1.  The nifty thing I noticed though was according to another post he took Expert Sleuth on Sonnia it can really up her chance of getting initiative on turn 2 *the push I do not thing will come up much and I don't see keeping the upgrade long enough to get said use*.  Most people would have gone for another Sonnia upgrade but I really feel the two sonnia upgrades are enough for this list.  It is a list that requires you to know all the tricks it can pull to make it work, and requires you to know all the tricks it can pull if you want to crack it.

As a Sonnia player that has good success with a pretty similar list (I don`t have the watcher, sleuth and child but have Queeg instead with 1-2 upgrades, it makes Show of Force easier and give extra pushes to people who want to engage Sonnia or gives her extra few inches and a pretty unexpected threat range) I have to approve this post.

It really shows what are the strengths and weakenssses of this list. I don`t find this list unbeatable but certainly some people need to get wiped off the board T3 to see how it works  

 

As for Mei Feng. I don`t have experience with a Good Mei Feng but its kind of a rock-paper-scisssors as if you go Mei and I go McCabe or Nellie I`m probably up a bit. If I go for Sonnia or Perdita you`re probably up a bit, but it still comes to execution more than list building.

 

Overall I`m very glad people with such knowledge post on the forums (even tho it will make my life harder)

[OneLittleThunder]

6 hours ago, trikk said:

As for Mei Feng. I don`t have experience with a Good Mei Feng but its kind of a rock-paper-scisssors as if you go Mei and I go McCabe or Nellie I`m probably up a bit. If I go for Sonnia or Perdita you`re probably up a bit, but it still comes to execution more than list building.

This is a factor that's been driven home to me very strongly lately; general tactical and strategic ability and knowledge of the game are a lot more important to your win rate than list-building is. "Darth Bilz" has a strong and well-tuned list, to be sure, but that's not why he keeps winning championships. I've never played against him, but I am pretty confident in saying that he has an excellent understanding of positional play, momentum, hand management, and probability, and I'll bet he at least broadly knows what every Master (and most other models in the game) does. That's pretty consistently true of the players who play and win at a highly competitive level, regardless of their chosen faction or home meta.

Yes, there's definitely value in discussing lists and models and counters and strategies, and it's also fun. But if you take a look at this list (or any other list from a top-performing player) and think, "That's nothing special, I could beat that," remember that the list is not the opponent. If there is a strong tactical mind on the other side of the table, that player can probably pilot any given starter box crew to victory (well, maybe not Lucius  ); and if you don't have the tactical fundamentals down (and I'll admit that I still don't), all the net-listing in the world won't help.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I agree with the overall sentiment. However I would like to point out that our own perceptions of what constitutes OP has a massive bearing on when we personally think a piece of evidence warrants a change. To be clear I'm not taking a side on whether the player is just super skilled and won from superior play, or whether a combination of models in the list is just OP in some way, or both. I'm just pointing out that if a Gremlins Rooster spam list, or a Dreamer summon list , or Heavens above, a Rotten Belle Spam list had won a major tournament multiple years in a row, there would be unremitting cries for the perceived model to be changed, even if the same player won all the events. 

I'm not at all detracting from the required skill it takes to win a major event. At least in my own experience, outside of arguably a few outliers, a more powerful master/model might only give an edge to a player trying to win a major event. The winner is often still going to be the most skilled player, or at least the one best able to still remain thinking and playing well after 6+ hours of Malifaux.

 

[EnternalVoid]

55 minutes ago, OneLittleThunder said:

I've never played against him, but I am pretty confident in saying that he has an excellent understanding of positional play, momentum, hand management, and probability, and I'll bet he at least broadly knows what every Master (and most other models in the game) does.

It is funny you mention that, I am well known in my group for knowing almost everything about almost every model.  I can often list the stats of a model or its actions while my opponent is checking their cards.  Mind you it has always been that way for me and gaming.  Then again I know people that can do that with sports facts so it is not like it is uncommon trait but it helps a lot not needing to ask your opponent to see cards when you are debating something as it speeds things up and you don't necessarily show your hand on what you might be considering.  One of my recent opponents lamented about how I knew his crew better than he did.

[BigHammer]

Misaki, Yu, Wandering River Style.

Push Misaki 10" toward Sonnia and give her fast, and stalk Sonnia. Leave her in hard cover if you can, and 14.5" away if you can. Sonnia has to try to kill Misaki, which goes something like this:

- Sonnia goes Ca9, walks, focuses, casts at Misaki. This is ++ to attack and damage vs - to attack and damage with the papa/box setup and cover (so +/+ overall).

- Misaki spends a stone for a +flip to Df and a - to Sonnia's damage. Sonnia now has no bonus to damage, so likely gets a - flip from accuracy if Misaki flips high enough, doing 2 damage. Sonnia has now spent all of her AP.

- Misaki stalks toward Sonnia, activates, charges her, kills her instantly with 5 attacks at +/+.

 

There are many other ways that this can go down, but once you set up the above, Sonnia is shut down whichever way she plays it (she's too slow to run away, activating another model means Misaki activates and engages/kills her anyway, etc) - even using a Child to flame wall isn't reliable due to Diving Charge and Misaki's mobility.

This setup is old hat. Once you remember stone users can give enemy models - damage flips, her casting gets neutered hard; keep non stone users out of reach until you can at least engage her if you aren't using one of 10T many, many alpha-strike lists now available in Wave 4.

[InvokeChaos]

I wouldn't say it's quite that simple, but I like the idea. That's actually one of my thoughts: is to do something hyper-aggressive.

But they can always leave Sonnia out of sight, and out activate you. Perhaps this allows you to focus down a different target, and still pull off the massive threat, but I'd be running really stone heavy for an attempt like that.

Francisco can do some damage to misaki and disengage Sonnia quite easily. And if they have a watcher or a way to put burning on Misaki, she doesn't need line of sight and an austringer can just push her into place.

Just things to consider.

[EnternalVoid]

@BigHammer

Going to be entirely honest, if the Sonnia player is leaving Sonnia in LoS to Sensei Yu at deployment and is leaving it all so easy for you to slingshot Misaki like this then the Sonnia player is asking to lose.  More so if the Sonnia player feels their only response is to try and blast Misaki rather than consider other options.  If I was the Sonnia player and you revealed this sort of set up to me I would make sure that Sensei Yu could not see Sonnia first turn even if I had to place a few models in front of her to block LoS.  That way even if he pushed Misaki up and gave her fast, he could not give her Stalk as well that way I can force a dilemma.  In this case he might be able to get LoS if he moves once, but then he cannot push Misaki twice and give her fast, only push her once, or he can push Misaki twice and give her fast, but he cannot give her Stalk.

This does not mean Misaki might not be able to get to her, and she can likely apply Stalk herself, but that means less attacks.  And less attacks means more chance of Sonnia surviving.  This Sonnia list has 9 activations, meaning it can wait a little before revealing Sonnia turn 1.  Unless you have a similar number it can wait you out.  In addition as Sensei Yu cannot move and pull this combo off, unless you have another source of movement actions to move him, they can just put a model directly between where they are going to move Sonnia with a push action and Sensei Yu to insure once they start repositioning Sonnia it does not automatically give you what you need.  Yes it means the Sonnia player has to be very cautious and careful, but that is part of what the discussion over this whole thing has been about; that the person who won these events likely not only knows his list inside and out but also has a pretty strong understanding of both the game and many other models.  As I often tell people when they are discussing these things is to always consider the enemy player knows as much as you or more. 

This is not saying this is a bad option, I actually outlined this exact option in one of my previous posts as something I would consider against the Guild period.  I just acknowledged that this will not always work or you might have to pick a different target to win *such as Francisco or the Austringers*.  It is good to have a plan, it is better to have a flexible plan.

[BigHammer]

@EnternalVoid

Misaki doesn't need to kill Sonnia, though; she just needs to threaten it and to engage her.

As for Yu, he's had a 4" push and Fast from the Emissary, so if your hiding spot exists he can either move to find it, or I can be happy that Sonnia is out of the way for the turn anyway.

This was a very specific example, to be fair, but the later point stands; anything that gives Sonnia a -flip on damage (hard to wound, stones, Yin, etc) negate the entire point of papa-in-a-box in the first place; getting to cheat the damage flip to get the blasts more reliably. If you spend 1SS from your cache to give her a - flip to counteract the 13 or so stones used to set this up to buy you the time to engage her or kill key parts of the crew, then that's a pretty sound investment in my eyes.

 

Essentially what I'm saying is that any crew can counter this trick if they remember their rules properly. Hiding from Sonnia doesn't work, especially not with her Emissary, but engaging her and killing her does, and those are things the Thunders can do extremely easily, and the papa trick is a very expensive way of getting a +damage flip that can, again, be countered pretty easily, and is the one trick that this pony of a crew does. The rest of it is just decent crew choices.

[trikk]

Just please remember that Sonnia is very often +4 in the Duel (Ca 9 vs Df 5) which means sometimes you can stone for the  and she still might get a moderate or just win by 6 as usually you`ll be cheating first.

 

I agree with @EnternalVoid. Those are good tactics. But you are usually not putting much faith in the Sonnia player. 

[EnternalVoid]

1 hour ago, BigHammer said:

@EnternalVoid

Misaki doesn't need to kill Sonnia, though; she just needs to threaten it and to engage her.

As for Yu, he's had a 4" push and Fast from the Emissary, so if your hiding spot exists he can either move to find it, or I can be happy that Sonnia is out of the way for the turn anyway.

This was a very specific example, to be fair, but the later point stands; anything that gives Sonnia a -flip on damage (hard to wound, stones, Yin, etc) negate the entire point of papa-in-a-box in the first place; getting to cheat the damage flip to get the blasts more reliably. If you spend 1SS from your cache to give her a - flip to counteract the 13 or so stones used to set this up to buy you the time to engage her or kill key parts of the crew, then that's a pretty sound investment in my eyes.

 

Essentially what I'm saying is that any crew can counter this trick if they remember their rules properly. Hiding from Sonnia doesn't work, especially not with her Emissary, but engaging her and killing her does, and those are things the Thunders can do extremely easily, and the papa trick is a very expensive way of getting a +damage flip that can, again, be countered pretty easily, and is the one trick that this pony of a crew does. The rest of it is just decent crew choices.

Question, how much of the other posts in this thread have you read?  I do not mean to be rude but it seems like this is going around in a circle as all of this has already been brought up the thread earlier.  Everything you have said has either been said by me or brought up by others and it has been discussed why it works, why it does not work, and what people were overlooking.

To summarize a bit of what was gone over and question at the same time; Have you ever played against this sort of Sonnia list in a tournament setting and if so with what?  Also do you take Misaki with Stalking Bisento, Sensei Yu with Wandering Style, and the Emissary in every list you play against Guild?  Between these three models you are spending 23ss, just short of half.  How many other models do you think you would be taking in addition to these three?  Are you aware how many push actions this list has for disengaging or moving Sonnia around with out spending AP?  Are you aware of the trick to get Sonnia's Defense higher than Misaki's Ml7 and thus with pushes can disengage?

Again not trying to be rude by questioning you but I have to agree with trikk that you seem to be writing the Sonnia list and player off a bit to easily.

[EnternalVoid]

Tried to fix a spelling error I saw and hit the wrong button and it did a new post.  Is there a way to delete posts?

[BigHammer]

4 hours ago, EnternalVoid said:

Question, how much of the other posts in this thread have you read?  I do not mean to be rude but it seems like this is going around in a circle as all of this has already been brought up the thread earlier.  Everything you have said has either been said by me or brought up by others and it has been discussed why it works, why it does not work, and what people were overlooking.

To summarize a bit of what was gone over and question at the same time; Have you ever played against this sort of Sonnia list in a tournament setting and if so with what?  Also do you take Misaki with Stalking Bisento, Sensei Yu with Wandering Style, and the Emissary in every list you play against Guild?  Between these three models you are spending 23ss, just short of half.  How many other models do you think you would be taking in addition to these three?  Are you aware how many push actions this list has for disengaging or moving Sonnia around with out spending AP?  Are you aware of the trick to get Sonnia's Defense higher than Misaki's Ml7 and thus with pushes can disengage?

Again not trying to be rude by questioning you but I have to agree with trikk that you seem to be writing the Sonnia list and player off a bit to easily.

I've made no assumptions about the player at all, simply the mechanic.

The difference between a Sonnia list with Papa in the box and a Sonnia list without Papa in the box is the + damage flip it gives Sonnia (for the cost of Papa and a Death Marshall). You rob her of this with Soulstones. Now she's a regular Sonnia, and you deal with her in the exact same way you normally deal with Sonnia without the + damage flips. Whether what you do to win that game works or not will now largely come down to your skill.

My only point is that the + damage flip mechanic is something that can be worked around. Everything else is the usual Malifaux gravy.

[trikk]

Out of Curiosity. How many SS do you have with Misaki? Because if you use 3SS for the  to damage you still need 3 high cards (Sonnia is at a  with Ca 9)? Do you let all 3 in? Thats probably around 9 damage considering burning. Do you prevent those? If yes you need 6SS in cache. If you don`t and you lose initiative then you probably die with no SS left and Sonnia continues to blast different targets.

[spooky_squirrel]

On 9/8/2016 at 3:05 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

Wouldn't Mei Feng be pretty good against Sonnia, btw? She can shield her force rather effectively from ranged threats (and the shield lasts until her next Activation - though you can get around it by using double Focus or SS and Focus) and she herself is pretty good in putting the hurt in (especially on stuff like Austringers). Oh, and she can be really quick on her feet. Sparks could keep Sonnia from being Pushed around so you could lock her in place more easily (just keep Sparks alive so avoid Franc). Oh, and Metal Gamin make short work of the Watcher.

Magnetism from a couple of gamin would shorten its lifespan considerably. I was pondering Mei Feng into Sonnia for hyper-mobile support removal, and I'm itching for good excuses to put Sparks and The Porkchop on the table to run with--Sparks having several things that could gum up the machine described above and/or providing conditions that greatly support Mei Feng (fast constructs, burning enemies to get bonuses off of).

On 9/8/2016 at 3:07 AM, Jafar said:

Good idea, but one thing, what WP has Mei Feng crew? Sonia has for WP7+ models

Mei's living construct crew is more defense oriented, but not too weak on WP. The Metal Gamin, however, will be hurting if hit with Wp duels instead of Df. Kang's a great resser drop and if you expect constructs and/or terrifying on the other side of the table. Otherwise, you might look into hiring Henchmen and crew support based off of what counters or ignores Sonnia while completing your objectives.

It sounds like Sonnia's machine can be picked apart by control pieces; an Oiran might be useful in this regard, either luring a cog out to where it can be killed or charging in and engaging (with unbeknownst if the cards in hand or the flip allow for it) to trip up activations, Sensei Yu airbursting people around can help, and Lust has been mentioned already as well. Bunrakus might be handy, as they can also pull things around the board.

Onis have already been mentioned, and the handful of times I've played into them, they've been surprisingly mobile and hard hitting. TT Brothers are very good at soaking up AP that targets their Df.

For going after Francisco, with some control/positioning, the Lone Samurai might be able to keep him under control.

Wandering River Monks are speedy and dodgy, and might be able to tie up cogs to the machine as well if you're not using them for scheme running.

 

This is all just theory-faux, however, as I don't have many of the models mentioned and have not faced off against someone familiar and comfortable with Sonnia and papa in a box. Others with more experience will be able to point out the details that I missed and errors in my thinking.

[trikk]

50 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

It sounds like Sonnia's machine can be picked apart by control pieces; an Oiran might be useful in this regard, either luring a cog out to where it can be killed or charging in and engaging (with unbeknownst if the cards in hand or the flip allow for it) to trip up activations, Sensei Yu airbursting people around can help, and Lust has been mentioned already as well. Bunrakus might be handy, as they can also pull things around the board.

Counterspell aura kind of negates the Oiran Lure and the Wp+1 Buff can negate Soft Cover for a lot of models.

[spooky_squirrel]

Absolutely, counterspell is really really good against control elements. It would have to be used against things like the watchers or other elements that are outside of the aura that are providing key pieces of the puzzle.

[trikk]

Sure, but you need to have LoS, the Watcher is stubborn and the Marshal with Papa Loco can sometimes get lured to blow papa in your face.