Balancing issues in Malifaux - a general discussion

[Math Mathonwy]

 

I find some of the so called cuddles strange. I didn't think either Iggy for Neverborn or The Slate Ridge Mauler for the Arcanists were that bad they needed a helping hand. Also sometimes by fixing a model you make it too good, which in my opinion, the mauler has gone from par to very good and I now see them a lot. The extra movement (including the push ability) and melee really makes it a good choice in the 8ss slot (Ml7 on the hug is nasty).

Just to note - "cuddle" is this forums replacement for the word n-e-r-f (some probably find this endlessly amusing but I find it a bit distracting). Iggy's Upgrade is bizarre as Iggy was perfectly fine without it and it doesn't really help his role. SRM was really bad but now is usable, IMO.

 

On a side note I'm not a big fan of the (0) upgrades. It just makes the table untidt and very difficult to keep a track of. I would prefer a new print card in the packs (and online)....they did it for Barbaros, albeit for base size.

I agree that some of the zero-cost enhancement Upgrades are really annoying. Some make use of the Upgrade system (like discarding or allowing for options like the Samurai) but many are something that really, really could've been written on the card. And since you already need the Upgrade card it doesn't make much sense from the perspective of avoiding the need for new cards.

[Bengt]

I think using upgrades to fix models is rather clunky.

One thing is that there are talents that interact with upgrades, e.g. Rasputina | Shatter | Demolish and Hans | Smile, you son of a... . Sure, there aren't a lot of these talents (though funnily Hans got a patch upgrade in W4 that makes it easier to use Smile), but getting a model up to snuff should include giving them new drawbacks IMO.

Another is that mercenaries can't normally take their upgrade when doing the mercenary thing, e.g. Oiran and Hidden Agenda. This takes them from the normal state of paying more for the same to paying more for less when using the models as mercenaries. This could be fixed by making the upgrades faction neutral, e.g. Wrath's Deal at the crossroads, but until that happens these mercenaries continue to be gimped.

[Math Mathonwy]

 

I think using upgrades to fix models is rather clunky.

One thing is that there are talents that interact with upgrades, e.g. Rasputina | Shatter | Demolish and Hans | Smile, you son of a... . Sure, there aren't a lot of these talents (though funnily Hans got a patch upgrade in W4 that makes it easier to use Smile), but getting a model up to snuff should include giving them new drawbacks IMO.

Another is that mercenaries can't normally take their upgrade when doing the mercenary thing, e.g. Oiran and Hidden Agenda. This takes them from the normal state of paying more for the same to paying more for less when using the models as mercenaries. This could be fixed by making the upgrades faction neutral, e.g. Wrath's Deal at the crossroads, but until that happens these mercenaries continue to be gimped.

Not to mention models who already had a personal Upgrade and can take only one Upgrade. Karina and Whiskey Golem using their original personal Upgrades is going to be mighty rare now that they have excellent 0-cost ones.

[Astrella]

I'm still holding half a hope that the arrival of an AP + the core rules being available for free now might mean a slight reinvestigation of a lot of things. It's why I'm a fan of Guild Ball and how they handle their business model with the rules for the models being online for free and them having done several big balances  already. I don't think Malifaux is in need of any big balancing changes (I personally would rather see some rules stuff cleared up), but a few things being changed would be nice. (Mostly thinking of a slight Lucius buff here.)

[LunarSol]

 

Not to mention models who already had a personal Upgrade and can take only one Upgrade. Karina and Whiskey Golem using their original personal Upgrades is going to be mighty rare now that they have excellent 0-cost ones.

I don't think upgrades are something to hold sacred.  An inferior upgrade is just a dead card and honestly, there's no need for it to exist in the first place so lets not waste energy on it.  Obsoleting an unplayed piece of paper is a small price to make a cool toy more playable.  

 

Another is that mercenaries can't normally take their upgrade when doing the mercenary thing, e.g. Oiran and Hidden Agenda. This takes them from the normal state of paying more for the same to paying more for less when using the models as mercenaries. This could be fixed by making the upgrades faction neutral, e.g. Wrath's Deal at the crossroads, but until that happens these mercenaries continue to be gimped.

I'm a tad undecided whether this is a bug or a feature.  Given some of the issues we've seen with hiring pools being a little too open, this quirk can help make models that can be designed with in faction keyword synergies that make them not worth using those keywords to hire out of faction.  Certainly its a double whammy for Mercs who already pay a literal out of faction tax, but I'm not sure I hate that some of these upgrades draw the faction lines a little bolder.  

[Bengt]

 

I'm a tad undecided whether this is a bug or a feature.  Given some of the issues we've seen with hiring pools being a little too open, this quirk can help make models that can be designed with in faction keyword synergies that make them not worth using those keywords to hire out of faction.  Certainly its a double whammy for Mercs who already pay a literal out of faction tax, but I'm not sure I hate that some of these upgrades draw the faction lines a little bolder.  

I only have serious faction line issues with things like Marcus and Leveticus, with their vast sprawling hiring pools. Models whose entire fluff entry amounts to "I'm a mercenary" (i.e. Hans) should be good as mercenaries IMO, indeed I think some models would sit pretty well without a home faction and Hans is one of them. That a Freikorps Librarian is better with Von Schill than as a mercenary I don't have a problem with since the Freikorps fluff mostly has them doing jobs as groups of Freikorps, not hiring out individually (why they have a bonus tied to being in any Outcast crew is a little more puzzling). Limited out of faction hiring based on fairly rare characteristics I also think should be well supported (e.g. Outcast Misaki infiltrating Oiran should be able to take Hidden Agenda as well).

[LunarSol]

I'll admit, it does greatly irk me that Misaki's Oiran can't take Hidden Agenda.  

[Lucidicide]

 

I'll admit, it does greatly irk me that Misaki's Oiran can't take Hidden Agenda.  

Sure they can, when you run Misaki in her TRUE Faction

[LunarSol]

So they don't have a hidden agenda in the faction she's secretly infiltrating?  

[Twg]

Misunderstood the term 'cuddle'. Sorry. @Math MathonwyI honestly thought that the SRM wasn't bad at all and I saw it used a fair bit. I now sometimes see 2. My personal opinion is that this now needs cuddling

[tomjoad]

While using upgrades to rebalance can feel clunky at times due to the need for these extra cards, I also feel really optimistic about the game because of them. The upgrade system allows them to "fix" weaker models without issuing errata, as well as allowing for the multiple playstyles that were initially envisioned for the Masters. The options are that Wyrd can leave lousy models alone, they can issue errata, or they can print upgrades. The first and second options are self-evidently bad, and the only real problem with new upgrades, imo, is that models like the Low River Monk and Iggy got them while High Rivers are left on the side still be borderline-worthless.

[D_acolyte]

Balance is a difficult thing to get right, it is somewhere between the model themselves and the prevalence of that model in games. A great model that is taken rarely may be more balanced then a bad model taken often or in numbers, like the rats. To a degree play testing can only address some problems, normally the capabilities of a model, where other issues will come up after the model is released for 4-6 months. On top of that people when new things are seen in this game will often get killed and for us players that where first ed we may still remember the horror of The Dreamer that was this all leads to a very negative quick reactions.

I would recommend that people sit down and say "is this really game braking or is it just me over reacting?" also understand that if a model changes how you play the game that does not make it game breaking it just means the battlefield has altered a little and adaptation is need. Now I need to leave so I can paint Angel's Eyes to kill some reporters.

[LunarSol]

 

I would recommend that people sit down and say "is this really game braking or is it just me over reacting?" also understand that if a model changes how you play the game that does not make it game breaking it just means the battlefield has altered a little and adaptation is need. Now I need to leave so I can paint Angel's Eyes to kill some reporters.

In general, having a realistic and proactive attitude towards competitive gaming is a lot healthier than trying to will reality in your favor.

Also, a 1v1 game that declares a winner at the end is competitive, no matter how casual of an attitude you have towards it.

[D_acolyte]

 

In general, having a realistic and proactive attitude towards competitive gaming is a lot healthier than trying to will reality in your favor.

I am not saying do not be proactive but rather not to let your temper flair or get so into the game that it gets you angry or stops being fun. As you could tell by the end of my last comment that I am all for being active, I plan of painting and running Angel Eyes because I think if a guild player is not taking at least 1 reporter then they are missing out. This is a proactive move, I see something that looks to cause me a problem and I have found what I think is the solution for my faction or style. Next, I will need to play some vs a crew with a reporter and see if it is the good solution or just a useful solution. Then back to modifying and adapting.

There is a difference between being proactive and being a doom sayer or letting a knee jerk reaction take over. I would argue that doom saying is the opposite of being proactive as you stop trying to solve problems and instead just act on it which is some cases can form an "extinction spiral".

I do not think think anything I stated is unrealistic. It is more analytical then saying, "I lost and that is a new model so it must be broken," such comments I find detract from the talk of is something balanced or not as well as hurts someone improving or adapting themselves. The unrealistic part might be expecting people to be honest with themselves enough to adapt. After I loose to a model or trick that I have never seen I do 4 things. Fist I read the cards and FAQ if it is fishy, next I think about the circumstances around its use, after that I see if there was/is a good counter or way to play to minimize the effect of the trick, finally I make a not and rest to come back to later. In all of this I make an assumption that victory is a possibility and should be worked for with the understanding that I must look at this objectively and not just jump to conclusions.

 

Also, a 1v1 game that declares a winner at the end is competitive, no matter how casual of an attitude you have towards it.

Not sure what your trying to get at with this. I know well that someone wins and someone looses that is the way the game goes and I have no problem with that, in fact if there can be no winner then there would be no point. It almost reads as if you have only half of what you wanted to say.

[LunarSol]

In the future I will remember to start that with "I agree" because I wasn't trying to argue with what you were saying.

[Jafar]

Balance... hmmm. I would say for me the game is balanced. But it's based on friendly games and playing "for fun".

At the same time, I must say that there are some very nasty situations, and mostly people can see them on tournaments. Levi and Rats were some of those cases. When you played against rat Viks it was so lame and boring, you simply couldn't do anything, only waited for Viks to strike. Wyrd did great job cuddling that. But in some situations still some masters may look extra strong / weak.

I sam new player with Lucius at tournament. He lost every game .... every. And he wasn't matched against top players I don't think it encourages him. 
Also summoning is bit odd, in some cases it may ruin your day and game. Probably every one saw at least once, game that started 50 SS vs 50ss where at the end of second turn summoner had something like 70ss worth models. Yes I know that some of those models very wounded badly, or some cards from hand were used to summon them, but still additional 6-10 AP at turn three can do the job. 

I think that if you want to enjoy the game and treat is as hobby, it will look balanced. In most cases players know difference between friendly game and tournament game. In first case they won't use so much Top Tier masters and will aim for "fun" for both players. But with tournament oriented look, in some cases some factions / masters may look not balanced or not suited for some of stats. 


 

[LunarSol]

 

Also summoning is bit odd, in some cases it may ruin your day and game. Probably every one saw at least once, game that started 50 SS vs 50ss where at the end of second turn summoner had something like 70ss worth models. Yes I know that some of those models very wounded badly, or some cards from hand were used to summon them, but still additional 6-10 AP at turn three can do the job. 
 

This is largely a perception issue.  I've had an additional 10-20 AP at turn three after Sonnia used her AP to remove half their crew.

[Math Mathonwy]

 

I don't think upgrades are something to hold sacred.  An inferior upgrade is just a dead card and honestly, there's no need for it to exist in the first place so lets not waste energy on it.  Obsoleting an unplayed piece of paper is a small price to make a cool toy more playable.

???

I'm arguing for errata (proper errata, not errata in the form of Upgrades) - I think that me holding a card "sacred" is about as far as you can get from my stance.

Imagine if, instead of the new Whiskey Golem Upgrade, that ability had simply been printed on the WG card instead. How would that have been worse? Then you could've still use Angry Drunk if you'd wanted to (with Sparks and the new Trigger it would've been a possible choice - far from an auto-take but not horrid). Why not open up that chance?

Why do you hold the WG stat card so sacred?

[LunarSol]

 

Why do you hold the WG stat card so sacred?

I don't really, but I get that changing the card is a little harder to manage.  They really need timestamps, as even in my collection I've got like 3 different versions of the Malifaux Child and probably at least 4 Franciscos.  I'm.... fairly... certain I've got the right ones, but I'm always nervous I kept the wrong one.  Likewise, until recently I really didn't know for sure what Metal Gamin did anymore.  Also weird when there's variants of a model.  Whiskey Golem as an obvious example has a regular and Nightmare version that people are going to want the right art for their updated card.

Anyway, I don't hold them sacred; I'm just aware that when the cards are the primary tool for providing rule information to players, errata can erode the trust players have in them.  Unreliable cards make for a very weird game and I don't think anyone's quite got a perfect update process figured out.

[Ludvig]

Having the latest version errata online so you can double check goes a long way. They could just do an extra version with the nightmare art when necessary.

With fixed time frames like once or twice a year you might avoid the feeling of insecurity since you would just double check against the latest online document on the errata announcement date.

For the record, I still think errata should be used with caution.

[LunarSol]

It's not hard, but it still means that I've got to have it with me when I'm say, rifling through cards dreaming up interactions and stuff like that.  It's definitely one of those issues that directly correlates with how much I use the model in the first place.  Metal Gamin being my prime example because I largely stopped taking them with Hoff.  It's an issue I've appreciated more as I've picked up more games to play casually and aren't necessarily 100% invested in keeping up with the latest rulings.

[Math Mathonwy]

 

I don't really, but I get that changing the card is a little harder to manage.  They really need timestamps, as even in my collection I've got like 3 different versions of the Malifaux Child and probably at least 4 Franciscos.  I'm.... fairly... certain I've got the right ones, but I'm always nervous I kept the wrong one.  Likewise, until recently I really didn't know for sure what Metal Gamin did anymore.  Also weird when there's variants of a model.  Whiskey Golem as an obvious example has a regular and Nightmare version that people are going to want the right art for their updated card.

Anyway, I don't hold them sacred; I'm just aware that when the cards are the primary tool for providing rule information to players, errata can erode the trust players have in them.  Unreliable cards make for a very weird game and I don't think anyone's quite got a perfect update process figured out.

I fully agree that they need timestamps or version numbers or something onto the cards (Eden has a simple V-02 or V-03 denoting the version of an errataed card) but I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree about the rest of this. I think that when errata is needed, it should be done to the base card when possible, not introduced as a no-brainer Upgrade and I think that the benefits of doing this outweigh the cons. You think different and obviously Wyrd seems to think different as well.

[Fetid Strumpet]

You don't have to agree with it or not, but from what I can remember of Justin's reasoning behind it was that it was partly dissemination. Not everyone that plays the game is plugged into the regular updates. Even if you time stamped them, how would you know that the most recent version is unless you were constantly plugged in. Show up to a tournament and a new player from out of town looks at your crew and says your using an illegal version of the card, what do you do at that moment, and how does that affect your impression of the game?

He said he liked using the upgrades because that doesn't change the bee version of the card, so you have some consistency in knowing what things do. The upgrades give you more options and can improve the model, but it isn't as if the rules changed if you didn't know about the upgrade, it was just an option you weren't aware of, as if you didn't own every model in the line. I'm obviously voicing my interpretation of what he said so if he intended something different this is how I'm remembering it from the podcast I listened to on it. I believe it was in reference to the Samurai.

I tend to agree because that is the strength of the upgrade system. I do understand though the downside to it. It offers less flexibility, in that if you need the upgrade to get to the point the community rightly or wrongly believes you need to be to be worth taking, it often costs you opportunity to take other upgrades because your slots get filled. I also get that people that want them to be equally good in all the factions that can hire them can feel left out because the upgrades, currently, are faction specific. Personally that doesn't bother me as I like strong faction identity, but I understand the argument.

Personally I'm not anti errata, as I was a big proponent of fixing models in 1.5, but I feel overall the balance on the macro level is fairly good (up to book 4 anyway, I'll reserve judgement on book 4 until we see how they turn out) and that only the worst outliers, those responsible for regular and repeated wins at events really needs fixing. Others may not agree, but that's my opinion.

Of course a lot of the discussions are somewhat moot because we have a new head of design at the helm now, and a lot of what we are discussing may not be valid any longer because we don't know how Aaron's philosophy of design, balance, and errata is going to line up with Justin's. Justin was a big believer in making errata in miniatures games rare, who knows how Aaron lines up. 

[Yipikayey]

If the upgrades didn't cost the opportunity to use a different upgrade, the system would be fine (not perfect). That way they would be pretty much errata's to the card.

[LunarSol]

 

If the upgrades didn't cost the opportunity to use a different upgrade, the system would be fine (not perfect). That way they would be pretty much errata's to the card.

They don't always.  The Oxfordian Mage fix specifically says it doesn't take up a slot.  As for when it doesn't... I have mixed opinions on this.  Generally though I'm ok with it it... I think... generally.