Neverborn Intrafaction Balance Musings

[orkdork]

I can't help myself pondering how Neverborn might achieve some better intrafaction balance, so I figured I'd start a discussion on it

If you just think about how to make each model in the faction either less of an auto-take or more of a viable choice, and forget about whether the faction would be rendered too weak relative to other factions, what comes to mind?

For an example of intrafaction models where we have rich choice, look at our scheme runners:

-Terror tots, Gupps, Silurid, Insidious Madness, Effigy, Sorrows, and Puke Snake all see regular play, while changelings and corrupted hounds are sure to start cropping up

But we have some models that just never show, because they're so rarely the right tool for the job relative to other pieces.

 

Let's start with small buffs to some models I'd like to see more of:

-Mature Neph - Bump to Df 5 to make him a bit more of a bruiser

-Young Neph - Cg 9 to offset reach 1

-Bad Juju - Unimpeded

-Sorrows - Df 4, Wk 4

-Baby Kade - Manipulative 14 (big bump)

-Candy - Ca6 on her attacks

-Lelu - Wk 6, No card cost for Lie in Wait

-Beckoner - -1 SS, -1 Wd

-Mysterious Emmisary - Armor +1

-Barbaros - 2/4/5 on his attack

-Spawn Mother - Wisps may make her great. Not sure yet.

 

Next, some cuddles to models to make them not auto-take, particularly in ways that avoid NPEs:

-Doppelganger - uh oh. Remove initiative cheat There, I said it!

-Pandora - Voices can't paralyze masters

-Lilith - Tangle Shadows doesn't ignore LOS and/or can't target masters

-Nekima - Remove Blood for Blood? It's super flavorful, but it jacks up HtK so much. She kinda kills everything atm. I dunno.

-Waldgeists - My beloveds! Favorite models. But they are too good. Probably the biggest offender is the 4" engage. Reduce it to 3" Hate to mess with these.

-Stitched - 3/4/6 curve. Severe against them should put them on htk exactly.

 

Remember: these are top-of-head "musings", not super-thought-out  What are yours? Ideas?

 

[Philosfr]

When I see Baby Kade, Barbaros and Candy on the list of models to buff, I have a hard time accepting the rest of the list. I think all three models are VERY good at what they do, and they all frequently find places in my lists. 

I'm also not a fan of any of the debuff's you've suggested, but I doubt any Neverborn players would be

[orkdork]

33 minutes ago, Philosfr said:

When I see Baby Kade, Barbaros and Candy on the list of models to buff, I have a hard time accepting the rest of the list. I think all three models are VERY good at what they do, and they all frequently find places in my lists. 

I'm also not a fan of any of the debuff's you've suggested, but I doubt any Neverborn players would be

EDIT: I shouldn't be petulant

Baby Kade, Barbaros and Candy are not tournament worthy. We have far stronger lists than any list that runs those models.

[Four_N_Six]

I use Kade all the time. And I feel like Barb will work well with titania 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Barbaros and Candy are very strong competitive options and absolutely do not need even the tiniest smidge of buffing. I don't play NB much any more, but when I do the most complained about model I use is Candy. 

[Thana.]

I don't really expect anything resembling perfect intrafaction balance from any game and don't think that having a level power curve of models within a faction is necessarily better than having auto-takes and never-takes.

That being said I think the ops list of models that are under the curve is fairly accurate. For those people who are advocating for any of the models on that list and consider them selves fairly strong players: would you be up for playing some vassalfaux? I'd genuinely like to see under which circumstances, and how they have to be played for any of those models to be worth taking :). 

[chryspainthemum]

Nothing specific to say regarding your choices, but I will say that the best way to 'balance' options, in my observations of other games across genres, is to strengthen strengths and weaken weaknesses. For example, with Sorrows, if you feel they need a buff, the best way to move forward would NOT be to make them more defensive or faster, since they are supposed to be slow and soft to Ca - the best way to move forward would be to make their aura larger or MLC range longer. Conversely, the way to balance Nekima, if you feel it is necessary, is not to weaken her damage output, but rather to make her easier to kill. Overall, this method results in each option having a specific niche in which it excels, allowing every option to ultimately have a place. 

That said, I'm not sure most of those models need buffing/cuddling. Nekima compared to other 13ss models is nothing exceptional. The Mysterious Emissary is fine where it is and the only reason it's not stronger is because our masters are already among the strongest in the game - when you have Pandora, Lilith, Collodi, AND Dreamer in one faction, your emissary's going to be a little on the weaker side

[lusciousmccabe]

I play Candy all the time (usually to good effect) and Lelu just got a buff. I also frequently take a Beckoner with Lynch, sometimes two. They're not really competitive with other masters, but I think they have their niche. I would add that they're good with Lucius along with a typical Lynch crew, but they're only comparatively good by Lucius standards. 

Stitched probably would be fine with the reduced severe damage, but I don't think it matters that much. They seem surprisingly unpopular outside of summons for the Dreamer. As an aside they're also one of the better options for Lucius as well.  

[Twg]

I think it is difficult to comment on which models needs buffing and debuffing as each area will have a different meta and some models will seem far better in some areas. I personally have never seen Barbaros used and Candy has been even rarer. That's not to say I think these need a buff though. I think the Young and Mature are probably more likely to get buffs as there seems to be a more broad based opinion that these models are weaker. That being said, Iggy got an upgrade and he was far from sub-par. 

[orkdork]

Meta does indeed matter a ton, but the high level tournament play is pretty telling.

Also, there is a big difference between 'needs a buff' and 'a buff would bring it in line with the rest of the faction'.

[mirparx]

I'm quite new so my experience is relatively low but, regarding lilith... Tangle shadow already is unreliable because of CA5 + need a mask. It is already hard to have success against masters ( most of the ones I've met had WP 6 or better ) and expensive ( usually you stone for the mask unless you don't have many in your hand to cheat with. Don't think a debuff on this will be well accepted...

[Math Mathonwy]

Weirdly enough, I liked all of your suggestions. They are subtle enough to not upset balance and all seemed to fit the models very nicely.

I would definitely add the Starter box models to the list of the ones in need of a buff, though. Especially Angel Eyes. Blood Wretches are a bit weird in that if you can give them Fast they turn quite viable but otherwise are a bit meh IMO.

Here's my off the top of my head suggestions:

Angel Eyes - add Nimble.

Scion of Black Blood - add Hard to Wound

Blood Wretch - add an ability which grants them Fast if something is killed within 2" of them (note that it won't help when they themselves kill something since Fast goes away at the end of the activation)

[Twg]

I think the Scion definitely needs something. At his price he really isn't a viable choice. Angel eyes is viable, but I wouldn't argue with nimble!!! Tangle shadows is not all that good against masters as said before. I would love ca 6, but Lillith is very good as is, so this is purely a moot point as it'll never happen. Blood wretches seem fairly OK for 5 stones. 

[Ludvig]

I don't think tangle being cast 5 is a coincidence or in need of a change. A lot of control abilites are restricted to non-master or after damaging on a low damage track which I always interpreted as masters being intentionally hard to control.

[Philosfr]

Models are a toolbox, and how you decide to try to use those tools is nearly as important as what the tool is. If you're trying to use a hammer on a screw, it will work, but a screwdriver might work better. Conversely, if you're trying to hit a nail, you'd be better off with the hammer.

I normally play Lilith, with Pandora being a distant #2. My master choice is part of the reason Barbaros, Candy and Baby Kade don't feel in need of anything to me. Barbaros is amazingly good at distracting another crew with Challenge, especially if it's a crew that requires targeting each other or staying fairly close. I feel people undervalue Challenge. I ran into some top finishers my first year at Adepticon that were surprised at how effective Challenge was at shutting down their crews or depleting their hand. Likely because they hadn't seen it get used. Sure, Barbaros sucks at dishing out damage, but that's not his purpose. His purpose is distracting a lot of bad guys, and he excels at that.

Baby Kade on the other hand fits in great with my normal Lilitu/Doppleganger/Lilith style game. Kade sits underneath Lilitu's 4" whip and murders anything that gets close with even mid-range crows that I've been camping. With a crow and another model adjacent to him, he is a heck of a damage dealer. And if you are making use of his pounce, either through Lure or Gaze or pushes from Barbaros, you can keep his very fragile being safe. 

Hence my opinion. I can't think of a pounce that is scarier than Baby Kade's when something else is engaging the model. Yeah, Barbaros sometimes is lackluster in a game when my opponent gets lucky killing him quick or can ignore his challenge in some way, but in other games he's easily MVP. 

 

[Wee Little Puppet Man]

I wouldn't argue against the Scion getting H2W, but I think he is sorely underrated. Sure 8ss might be a tad too expensive, but 7ss could be cheap. There has been no game were I regreted fielding him, mostly because of his (0) to obey a friendly interact up to 10" (with Titania I just can see this being even more useful) and his  to everything but damage when he has less than 7 wounds. His triggers are often useful, his discard-to-remove-condition has turned the tides after a paralyze or slow that could have meant the game, he has mobility, some survivability and doesn't lack a punch. And if you his hreplace his hands so that they face slightly to the front, he doesn't look that bad.

[Philosfr]

I played a campaign with Scion + Emissary. That was fantastic. Scion would make things pop out a scheme marker with a 0, move then drop another marker. Then the Emissary would turn them both into a Changeling. 8ss was a bit expensive for that, but he also drove my opponents nuts trying to chase him down and kill him.

[Kirby]

The problem with several of these suggestions for buffs (and debuffs) is that it doesn't really make me want to take the model any more than before.  The Scion having Hard to Wound won't make me look at him any harder.  Angel Eyes having Nimble would be nice though, even further cementing her into a Grow list.  I don't think she needs it though, considering she has a (0) Attack action.

[LunarSol]

I'll generally agree with chrys on this that broadly speaking I think its more important to make things more unique than more powerful.  One of the common problems I see with balance suggestions are those that fall in the line of "if this was a point less it would see play".  Almost always true, but the actual problem is generally that what that means is that the extra point allows something else to do the similar job more efficiently (there are exceptions where you just wouldn't pay that much for the role it fills, but that's relatively rare).  Without addressing the core redundancy, you make one model "better" but in doing so make it more efficient than the other one, trading one unplayed model for a previous played model.

I'm definitely of the camp that wants to ask "how can I make this do something special" before "how can I make it stronger".  To that end, I'd argue that making Young/Mature's better is to improve Grow and things like Waldgeists should probably be looked at with the idea of "how can 4" melee be fair?".

[The Warlock]

Seconding Kirby, the proposed buffs don't make me want to put the mentioned models into a list any more than they already do. These are just my opinion/thoughts on the buffs/cuddles. In the interest of disclosure, I'm incredibly leery of making models more competitive in the name of balance.

I've yet to find a home for Candy as I don't take her with Pandora, due to her cost. Making sorrows Wk4 is dumb, sorry. Their main method of movement is through MLC; sure you need models for it to work, but if they're activated later they should have plenty of stopping points to move into position. I can see how Wk4 enables them to have the range for scheme marker placement, but given how fragile they are they might not survive long if an opponent figures out what they're doing. For sorrows, I'd really like to see some kind of tweak- 5ss seems too much, though 4ss feels too cheap. Not going to argue regarding an increase to Df, though maybe an extra wound instead would be better suited?

When using Dora, I try to find a spot for one or two, though the cost puts me off using all three. They are good enough minions for public demonstration, provided there's a suitable distraction and can run other schemes well enough.

Angel eyes doesn't really need nimble- her role is to hang back and shoot into engagements. She's got a good long range weapon with decent damage and a nice 0 action to deter anyone trying to engage her. Additionally, the scion gains to all flips barring damage once he's down to 6 or less wounds, so getting boosts to attack, Df and Wp flips is handy. Given one of his attack triggers, he can heal back up. All in all, the starter box models are quite solid and a buff/tweak would feel unnecessary for any of them.

I'd argue Nekima does not need cuddling as she's 13ss, 15 if you take True Mother.  A list with Nekima would have to be built around her given her cost and as she's very eggs-in-one-basket, she better damn well be good at gibbing mooks. Blood for blood is to go with her upgrade, to kill things with black blood for the tot summons/grow kills-counts-as. It's situational, though if she gets mobbed it's a nice way to not have to use AP on quite weakened enemies.

Again, these are my thoughts but I don't think many models need tweaks.

[Kirby]

Nekima is on the lower end of the power scale compared to other 13ss models.  She's fine right where she is.  I'd only put Aionus below her, cross-faction speaking, and a good chunk of his cost is due to utility.  She does not have the speed, flexibility, or survivability of Ashes & Dust.  She does not have the killing power of Howard Langston or Killjoy.  She's a little bit more survivable due to soulstone usage, but her lack of Terrifying, Armor, and general mobility can get to be very evident.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'm confused. Not equal to the killing power of Killjoy? Lack of mobility? I'll have to respectfully but vehemently disagree.

 

[Math Mathonwy]

Have people who think that Angel Eyes is OK tried replacing her with McTavish? Because unless you absolutely need a Nephilim, then McTavish is just insanely better.

[Eclipse]

@Kirby On the lower end of the power scale of 13 ss models? Etc., etc.? Thanks mate, that gave me a good laugh  Nekima is awesome, she is my most dreaded cruise missile that I can deliver to any enemy model and wreck it, growing stuff all the while. She does not cost 13ss for me - I always take The True Mother and Rapid Growth on her for a Growth Missile. If carefully executed I can create great board swings where I kill one or two models while summoning a Tot and growing another one to a Young.
What you said in relation to Nekima ought to be due to not having seen used as best as possible - while delivering the Killjoy bomb and Ashes and Dust are tried tactics and a no-brainer.

[Lordgimpet]

As someone who has every single NB models, you have to understand that what is considered viable is purely up to the individual. each model has its strengths and weaknesses and when a model is continually used incorrectly by many it is often then incorrectly commented on as being weak or OP depending on the situation.

based on your list  in the OP depending on what you feel should be improved kind of shows me how you either play with those models or believe how you should use them, so rather than change the models. have you considered changing how you approach their use?

moving on to what you believe could be cuddled, I feel you have not really taken into account what other factions are capable of. 

 I can't see how any of those models listed could be causing issues. I mean the Doppelganger, initiative cheating is not the sole reason she is taken often. and the cheat is a lot tamer compared to when she used to cause + flips on the initiative. The rest on the list also don't require adjustment.