Learning to use Reva

[TheTrans]

49 minutes ago, Greebo said:

The ruin was an archway. So Reva sat behind there, able to see through the gate. She didn't hug the base but to be shot or charged the model would have had to wall quite a bit. Summoning through the gate and thus that Ulix and Gracie were in 3" of the Candle was easily doable. I'm aware of the summoning mechanics, but thanks for the heads up.

 

Edit:

Picture - here you can see the setup at the start. The lines roughly indicate Reva's LOS. The fight took place where Gracie started and the Candles were summoned between the archway and the house behind which Hayreddin started. 

 

To all the Rezzers who have already played her: Which (0) do you use most commonly? Which Soulbound upgrade do you usually give the Shieldbearers? 

Although I always seem to bloody take Maniacal laugh, I very rarely use it.

Her zero I mainly use is the (0) to teleport to a corpse marker. Which you just summon a candle 5" away, pop to the other side of it and do what you want from there.

I take the get a soulstone for a card on them as a couple of late game stones can be game changers. I don't bother with the damage one as people will generally just pass it if they need to, and the scheme marker one may help with normal book strats, but for GG16, your markers should already be where you need them if your shieldbearers are dying...

[TheJoyInGaming]

2 hours ago, Greebo said:

The ruin was an archway. So Reva sat behind there, able to see through the gate. She didn't hug the base but to be shot or charged the model would have had to wall quite a bit. Summoning through the gate and thus that Ulix and Gracie were in 3" of the Candle was easily doable. I'm aware of the summoning mechanics, but thanks for the heads up.

 

Edit:

Picture - here you can see the setup at the start. The lines roughly indicate Reva's LOS. The fight took place where Gracie started and the Candles were summoned between the archway and the house behind which Hayreddin started. 

 

To all the Rezzers who have already played her: Which (0) do you use most commonly? Which Soulbound upgrade do you usually give the Shieldbearers? 

I typically use the 0 for Life Drain but i've only missed casting it once and have hit it for Max damage all but once. The other 0 i use is for Mwahahaha though i only use it about once or twice a game because you get so much value from it after only one casting. 

I use the soulbound upgrades Another Purpose for the stones and The Gift of Death for markers. I've only used the attacking one once and regretted it. The others provide so much value that i can't really justify the third. Though i often play TT so they can usually heal that back up anyways. 

[Greebo]

Thanks for the replies. I mainly used Life Drain as well, but always considered the other options. I like the flexibility! Turn 3 would have seen me summon 6 Mindless Zombies with Maniacal Laugh, but I didn't want to add insult to injury and we ended the game. 

 

I also don't think the damage Soulbound upgrade is the best choice, but in my game I neither needed the scheme marker nor was in need of Soulstones (still got 3), so I just tried it. It's like having terrifying or something like that. You either drain cards or you get a nice effect that hinders your opponent. Even though I agree that both alternatives are better by far. 

[Omenbringer]

17 hours ago, TheTrans said:

So, had a 14 player tournament yesterday that I managed to win handily.

Game 1 was against a generic Summoning Somer list, with Burt, Francois, A rooster rider and all the bayous and slop haulers. Was head hunter (not ideal for Reva).

Gremlins are an extremely poor choice against Reva. With their propensity to hurt themselves and her ability to target Wp or Df with a high minimum damage, it wouldn't be unreasonable for Reva alone to remove 3-4 Gremlins a turn in a summon factory.

12 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Question about something in your report. If you positioned Reva, a Ht3 model, in such a way as to not be seen, how were you summoning CC or attacking through corpses? To summon you must be able to see the model summoned, and to attack through corpses, you must be able to see the marker. Putting Reva behind terrain such that she can't be seen means you can't see either, ad that would limit your vectors of summoning and attacking basically to only the extreme sides and behind her. Did your opponent walk into the obvious kill zones, or did something about her placement get lost in the telling?

While I agree that additional clarification (i.e. a picture of the board) would be nice, I don't think even the high side of terrain recommendation (70% from the 2-player starter booklet with 1/3 LOS blocking) really effects her a whole lot. Below is a graphic representation of Reva's reach if positioned at the center of the table;

This is a board from the Malifaux 2e Vassal Module. There is plenty of Ht 3+ Blocking terrain on the board and it is near the high end of terrain recommendations. The part of Reva is being played by Lucas McCabe since a Reva Marker is not present in the Vassal Module yet. The inner shaded portion (purplish) is the range of her AP free Corpse Candle Summon from Forgotten Dead. The outer shaded area (grayish) is the maximum range of Strength of the Fallen. Many of the Gremlins have been placed completely out of Reva's LOS and yet she can target them with Ethereal Reaping Attack Actions through the corpse counter Nodes nearby.

So while she may not be able to attack the entirety of the board due to LOS blocking terrain elements, she still easily dominates the scoring areas of the board.

Pushing her back behind that Ht 5 hazardous terrain would protect her from LOS from that lower right quarter and yet still allow dominance of the majority of the table. Pushing her to the left or down and behind the Ht 2 crates would provide her Hard Cover (:-fate on both attack and damage) and not inhibit her board presence much.

 

In another thread about Reva there are a lot of comparisons to Rasputina and how she has a similar threat range. While the comparison to Rasputina is understandable, consider that Reva can easily drop a Corpse Marker node where she needs it (for no AP expenditure) while Rasputina has to depend on friendly pre-positioned Frozen Heart models (that also can not be engaged with an enemy model), can not declare triggers when noding unless she also attaches her 3 SS upgrade, and really has no method of replacing them if they are killed (sure she can use her 1 AP December's Touch Tactical Action to give a model Frozen Heart but that is then 1 less AP she has for the activation). Lastly, while Rasputina has the Overpower trigger, so could potentially generate more attack actions, these require a suit and success, are also actions (so Cover modifiers apply), have lower minimum damage, and always target Df (so Defensive Stance can help). Reva doesn't care about Cover and can bypass Defensive Stance by targeting Wp instead. Her minimum damage is also higher meaning she can concern herself with just hitting and worry less about hitting particularly well. Finally, while Reva's triggers are nice she doesn't really depend upon them like Rasputina does.

[Kadeton]

I finally got Reva on the table this weekend, on the top table in the final round of a local tournament. I won the game, though I don't think Reva was particularly well suited to the Strategy and Schemes. (I could have destroyed that game with Nicodem, but I really wanted to see what Reva could do.)

While I found her reach was pretty crazy, I wasn't particularly impressed with her damage output. She had one "wow" moment when she demolished a full-heath Gracie in one activation, but that required Vincent to set it up and also blew all my high cards for the turn. When you combine the efforts of a Master and a Henchman against the same target (especially when the target is only an Enforcer) then you pretty much expect it to disappear.

Ca 6 on Ethereal Reaping was a real limitation, I found. It's sometimes mitigated by being able to choose the resist stat, but there are plenty of models in the game (especially those that require Master-level attention) with Df 6 / Wp 6, and you can easily burn out your hand trying to force those attacks through. Her minimum damage is solid, but that's essential because minimum damage is basically all you're going to get unless you combo with something like Hayreddin.

I find the comparisons to Rasputina a bit spurious - the two Masters feel very different to me. Reva has high single-target damage at extreme range, coupled with high mobility and minor scheme utility. Rasputina has high blast damage at extreme range, with strong board control, debuff/lockdown and resilience. The only similarity there is "high... damage at extreme range", which is a flimsy basis for comparison given all the other aspects of each Master's style. If you're only ever using either Master to deal damage at range, you're not playing at their full strength. I will say that Reva feels more one-dimensional than Rasputina to me, though that may be lack of experience.

(I will say that a properly set up blaster-Rasputina will be throwing out December's Curses at Ca 8, dealing 3/5/6 damage. Three of those, and potentially up to three more at Ca 6, is a level of damage output that Reva cannot hope to match, and that's before any blasts are considered. Personally, I've found that blaster setup to be a fairly weak way to play Rasputina compared to her other modes. It's far too static, and damage isn't everything.)

I was really impressed with Vincent, I have to say. A bit like the Shieldbearers, he looks a little underwhelming on paper but is an amazing piece on the table. His Df/Wp trigger alone makes him one of the most elusive models in the game - under normal circumstances it's really hard to put damage on him, but on his My Little Helper turn he's basically untouchable. Being able to generate his own Soulstones by finishing off targets is great, his damage is pretty respectable with Corpses around, and of course there's the ability to shut down the game's most powerful defenses. Vincent is an awesome package, and I look forward to trying him out with other Masters.

I'm torn on Maniacal Laugh versus Spare Parts for Reva. I took Spare Parts in this game, and easily summoned a Rogue Necromancy with enough Corpses left over for more of them... but I feel like by the time you get to summon a Rogue with Reva, it's kind of a "win more" move. If you're already on the back foot, a Rogue isn't likely to last long enough to make a difference, whereas Reva's AP used in other ways might. Maniacal Laugh, on the other hand, competes with her other sweet (0)s. I'm going to try the Laugh in my next game.

[Bengt]

2 hours ago, Kadeton said:

(I will say that a properly set up blaster-Rasputina will be throwing out December's Curses at Ca 8, dealing 3/5/6 damage. Three of those, and potentially up to three more at Ca 6, is a level of damage output that Reva cannot hope to match, and that's before any blasts are considered. Personally, I've found that blaster setup to be a fairly weak way to play Rasputina compared to her other modes. It's far too static, and damage isn't everything.)

If we are talking about throwing all the eggs in the Rasputina blaster basket there really should be Burning +1/discard from the Effigy as well.  

[TheJoyInGaming]

I'll second Kadeton about dual 6/6 def/wp being a trouble for Reva and her control hand. My opponent love TT and torakage and hitting them can often be a drain on my control hand. It seems one of Reva's weaknesses are high def/wp targets due to her CA 6. I've been looking at models to help the control hand due to this and so far i'm thinking of Sue.

[TheTrans]

Yeah, thats why you need to link Yin up with things you really want to kill. 

[daniello_s]

1 hour ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

I'll second Kadeton about dual 6/6 def/wp being a trouble for Reva and her control hand. My opponent love TT and torakage and hitting them can often be a drain on my control hand. It seems one of Reva's weaknesses are high def/wp targets due to her CA 6. I've been looking at models to help the control hand due to this and so far i'm thinking of Sue.

All she has to do is to kill your scheme runners, which thanks to her range threat and rather low Df/Wp of the target she will do quickly and then wear down your tougher models when you'll try to run them as a backup scheme runners. You can't assume that she will focus on your toughest models only but you should always assume that she will easily pick your key models which puts you on the back-foot with schemes/strategy.

[daniello_s]

1 hour ago, TheJoyInGaming said:

I'll second Kadeton about dual 6/6 def/wp being a trouble for Reva and her control hand. My opponent love TT and torakage and hitting them can often be a drain on my control hand. It seems one of Reva's weaknesses are high def/wp targets due to her CA 6. I've been looking at models to help the control hand due to this and so far i'm thinking of Sue.

Sue's anti-Ca protection bobble works until the end of the turn and Reva will get him quite easy once she seize a chance, believe me.

[Jafar]

6 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Sue's anti-Ca protection bobble works until the end of the turn and Reva will get him quite easy once she seize a chance, believe me.

Correct Sir Tested it, when Reva went first in turn 3 she killed him asap. But learned one thing, she needs LOS to corpses. So 50 mm models or ice / flame pillars, forests  etc. can be good against her.

[daniello_s]

Anything which places stuff like that (pillars) is always good but problem is that not all factions have an access to this sophisticated tool.

[TheTrans]

I must say the dual Kythera shards the Emmissary can throw up on a turn can be bloody helpful.

[Paddywhack]

15 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

In another thread about Reva there are a lot of comparisons to Rasputina and how she has a similar threat range. While the comparison to Rasputina is understandable, consider that Reva can easily drop a Corpse Marker node where she needs it (for no AP expenditure) while Rasputina has to depend on friendly pre-positioned Frozen Heart models (that also can not be engaged with an enemy model), can not declare triggers when noding unless she also attaches her 3 SS upgrade, and really has no method of replacing them if they are killed (sure she can use her 1 AP December's Touch Tactical Action to give a model Frozen Heart but that is then 1 less AP she has for the activation). Lastly, while Rasputina has the Overpower trigger, so could potentially generate more attack actions, these require a suit and success, are also actions (so Cover modifiers apply), have lower minimum damage, and always target Df (so Defensive Stance can help). Reva doesn't care about Cover and can bypass Defensive Stance by targeting Wp instead. Her minimum damage is also higher meaning she can concern herself with just hitting and worry less about hitting particularly well. Finally, while Reva's triggers are nice she doesn't really depend upon them like Rasputina does.

Hmm. Would removing the ability to use triggers when attacking through SotF make her less of an NPE? She couldn't do more damage or heal from a distance and she couldn't as easily use the Screaming Death trigger. 

[Wifstrand]

I really don't think Reva needs fixing - especially not so soon! She's certainly a very strong master, but primarily because her tricks are somewhat straightforward. We haven't had her long, but because she is as straightforward as she is, people have discovered how to play her already. However, discovering how to effectively play against her seems to just be taking a little longer.

[Paddywhack]

1 hour ago, Wifstrand said:

I really don't think Reva needs fixing - especially not so soon! She's certainly a very strong master, but primarily because her tricks are somewhat straightforward. We haven't had her long, but because she is as straightforward as she is, people have discovered how to play her already. However, discovering how to effectively play against her seems to just be taking a little longer.

True to a point. But the more I see her and play her (and I do like her), I think she is going to end up in the "too strong and not fun to play against" basket. That 18" range is really brutal and might be the biggest problem (at least when paired with all the optimal builds you can create). Next game I'm going to mentally note how often a shorter range would have changed things for her. 

From what others are saying she's already been banned in some play groups and that's never a good sign. Yes you can beat her, but it does seem like you have to specifically plan on facing her and even then are facing an uphill battle. Especially for the non-Book 4 masters.

[TheJoyInGaming]

9 hours ago, daniello_s said:

Sue's anti-Ca protection bobble works until the end of the turn and Reva will get him quite easy once she seize a chance, believe me.

I meant Reva taking Sue, to help with her control hand...

[Omenbringer]

3 hours ago, Wifstrand said:

I really don't think Reva needs fixing - especially not so soon! She's certainly a very strong master, but primarily because her tricks are somewhat straightforward. We haven't had her long, but because she is as straightforward as she is, people have discovered how to play her already. However, discovering how to effectively play against her seems to just be taking a little longer.

Straight forward play style has very little to do with it. The same could be said about Perdita and Lady Justice and yet neither of them have any where near the potency Reva does.

Effectively playing against her requires specific factions (some just don't have the tools or are extremely susceptible to her shtick), specific models (which limits your other options), and favorable Strats/ Schemes. Even then the Reva player is hardly neutered, more like on even terms.

We will just have to agree to disagree on when addressing Reva should be done. When Wyrd used the "wait and see" approach with 1st edition Hamelin (also identified as a problem soon after release) it wasn't good for the communities. I would think addressing it before she hits general release would be preferable to after when more cards are in circulation and it is more difficult.

[TheJoyInGaming]

Has anyone taken a crew not built around Reva as the primary damage dealer? Has anyone tried to maximize the use of Blood Mark with other big threats like Val or Rogue Necromancy or tried her with Spare Parts to great effect?

Reva the assassin has pretty much been figured out it seems and i'm wondering if anyone has any other intriguing and powerful builds. 

[Kadeton]

2 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Straight forward play style has very little to do with it. The same could be said about Perdita and Lady Justice and yet neither of them have any where near the potency Reva does.

Do you think so? I recall months and months of "omg Perdita is so OP" at the start of M2E, and some groups banning her from being played for a while. I think Perdita is much closer to Reva's style than Rasputina is, and I think a lot of people are struggling with Reva in exactly the same ways they used to struggle with Perdita. I also think that people will get used to coping with Reva's damage and range over time, just like they got used to coping with Perdita's.

In that vein, I think straightforward playstyle has everything to do with it. Reva's range and damage make her easy to pick up and difficult to counter. (In contrast to Lady Justice, whose abilities are difficult to use effectively and easy to counter, even though her basic approach is simple.) Anyone can look at Reva's card and see how to make her kill things, but it will take more time to learn how to stop her killing things. In the meantime, she might seem OP.

[TheTrans]

3 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Do you think so? I recall months and months of "omg Perdita is so OP" at the start of M2E, and some groups banning her from being played for a while. I think Perdita is much closer to Reva's style than Rasputina is, and I think a lot of people are struggling with Reva in exactly the same ways they used to struggle with Perdita. I also think that people will get used to coping with Reva's damage and range over time, just like they got used to coping with Perdita's.

In that vein, I think straightforward playstyle has everything to do with it. Reva's range and damage make her easy to pick up and difficult to counter. (In contrast to Lady Justice, whose abilities are difficult to use effectively and easy to counter, even though her basic approach is simple.) Anyone can look at Reva's card and see how to make her kill things, but it will take more time to learn how to stop her killing things. In the meantime, she might seem OP.

Spot on mate!!

[daniello_s]

Reva is way better than Dita (and I'm not saying Dita is bad). Reva can even hit your model who thinks it is safe behind LOS blocker as all she needs to do is to get corpse marker at the corner of the LOS blocker and 3'' away from your model. So when with other shooting Masters you can play hide and seek game utilizing cover and damage reduction abilities with Reva you can't do that much. I see Reva at this stage as Resser artillery who can stand far back and punish almost anything she wants everywhere she wants. 

Ressers were always this faction which lacks shooting. That's why they have Belles and Doxies. Now they have everything...

[moxypoo]

For what it's worth my friend just beat a Reva 9-0 in a tournament this past weekend while using a fully in theme Rasputina list.

A lot of the "Reva is OP" comments smell of throwing one's hands up in the air and giving up. She's been out in a limited capacity for what? Two months? It's much too early to determine whether she's OP or not. There are many counters that aren't being mentioned in this thread. Use the corpse counters yourself (Ressurs, Maniacal Laugh especially, Levi, etc.). Remove the Corpse Counters (Hooded Rider, Mysterious Emissary, Friekorps Specialist, etc.). Shoot back at her (Guild and Outcasts are especially good here. 10T has some solid ranged models as well). Run across the board and engage her crew aggressively (almost every faction can do this). Use models that don't drop corpse markers to limit her attack avenues (pretty much any non-living, non-undead crew). Reva has no way to mitigate armor, so heavily armored crews won't be as scared.

She may eventually turn out to be overpowered, but it's entirely too early to tell, especially because there's been so little discussion on how to counter her. When M2E first came out, I remember months of, "How will I ever beat ranged masters like Perdita and Rasputina?!" Neither of those masters are considered over powered now.

[daniello_s]

34 minutes ago, moxypoo said:

Use models that don't drop corpse markers to limit her attack avenues (pretty much any non-living, non-undead crew). Reva has no way to mitigate armor, so heavily armored crews won't be as scared.

Except she can drop corpse markers like candy (especially with a help of her friends) and she can have an upgrade which disallow to reduce her damage so your Armor advice is not really helpful, you know?

BTW - the best comment about Reva I heard came from our best player in Ireland who happens to play Ressers almost exclusively. After running her few times he said she is scary... even more than scary...

[moxypoo]

1 minute ago, daniello_s said:

Except she can drop corpse markers like candy (especially with a help of her friends) and she can have an upgrade which disallow to reduce her damage so your Armor advice is not really helpful, you know?

BTW - the best comment about Reva I heard came from our best player in Ireland who happens to play Ressers almost exclusively. After running her few times he said she is scary... even more than scary...

Crap. Forgot about that upgrade.

But you neglected to mention all the other advice in my post, implying that the other advice is helpful? My main point with that post was to suggest that shes only been out for a short while, and there's been little to no discussion on how to deal with her. She might end up being overpowered, but it's much too early to tell. If she starts winning all major tournaments and no one can come up with any counterplay then I'll be right there with you crying "OP!" This sort of reaction happens with literally every new book, and there have been very few cases of errata cuddling a model after its been released. That suggests that the released product is generally fine, regardless of the initial impressions.