Angel Eyes

[Dimitri]

Hi guys. I bought a while ago the starter box. I ve used angel eyes and bloodwrech. The bloodwrech seems solid and simplistic. Angel eyes seems to do the same a minion could do with half tge cost. What do you think about her? I like the model and i want to make her work but her damage  (if you don't burn ss is disappointing..)

[Fetid Strumpet]

What approximately 4-5ss minion are you thinking about that does what Angel Eyes does? Most people I know that don't like her don't like her because McTavish does significantly more that here for slightly higher cost.  

[Dimitri]

I was referring to freicorps trapper. They cost 6ss and have built in positive. Never tried them but seen them in play. So your point is that Angel eyes worth it? I almost exclusively  (for now) play the dreamer because i am new to the game and i want to  familiarise my self the most with him. My intention was to use her to bully stuff with hard to kill like fransisco or the ones that waldgeists have engaged. I was also thinking of her as a nice way to play for hunting party since she cant kill henchmen but she can kill minions and peons with ease. What do you think? (Thanks for the fast reply man!!)

[EnternalVoid]

Well Angel Eyes has a few perks on the Trapper and it has a few on her.   First off it is 9ss vs 7ss as the Trapper is a merc and taking it in Neverborn gets it the merc tax.  So they are only 2ss difference.  Next they really serve different purposes.  Angel Eyes is not a long range sniper as much as someone who lurks behind your line and supports your other models.  Like you said she can shoot those models that are engaged with out worry and she does have a Sh6 which is pretty nice.  The Trapper in turn is mostly about long range support and picking at models before the lines meet or hitting stragglers.  He shoots into combat less as he has nothing to prevent randomizing and shooting at his own guys. 

Personally I am not a big fan of Angel Eyes with Dreamer.  Dreamer likes Minions and Nightmares for his buffs.  Also depending on which limited upgrade you take his crew varies a lot.  If you take the Summoning upgrade, any other upgrades you want, daydreams, and then add Angel Eyes and you are already looking at a pretty price starting point of a crew ss wise.  If you are taking the Chompy dreamer build you tend to want some hard hitting and some numbers, which Angel Eyes is less hard hitting and more back up work.  If you are taking her I would make sure you have some solid mid cost models and try to summon to fill out your ranks *Chompy Dreamer can go for the Alps to tie things down*. 

Bloodwretches on the other hand I love with Dreamer as they are nifty minions for him and have some pretty interesting tricks that he can pull off.

[santaclaws01]

Gonna agree that Angel Eyes isn't really worth it in a Dreamer crew. He himself already has a situationally better non-randomizing Sh in Surround By Nightmares. Also, as @EnternalVoid pointed out, you want to be running Minions and Nightmares with Dreamer. Angel Eyes isn't in the same league as say Nekima or Hooded Rider to warrant a non-nightmare, non-minion model.

[wizuriel]

Angel eyes I find is can be really good in a Nephilim growth list. iirc you can give her rapid growth and have a terror tot run/charge into combat. Get Angel eyes then to snipe the enemy model letting you grow the terror tot into a young nephilim. 

[The Warlock]

Angel eyes as stated isn't a sniper, she's more of a support henchwoman in that her shooting into engagements helps soften things up, not to mention she has a nice 0 shooting action which means she can potentially lay down 3 ranged attacks on anything attempting to approach her.

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, wizuriel said:

Angel eyes I find is can be really good in a Nephilim growth list. iirc you can give her rapid growth and have a terror tot run/charge into combat. Get Angel eyes then to snipe the enemy model letting you grow the terror tot into a young nephilim. 

Angel Eyes would need to be 2" away from the Terror Tot to grow it, so having it charge into combat wouldn't really do much for growing it if you're having Angel Eyes stay back.

[Dimitri]

I am running dreamer mostly as summoner. I was trying to find a way to compliment my defensive playstyle.most of the times i hire 2 waldgeists and when i need to go killy i hire kade to charge at the guys lilitu lured on waldgeists 4" engagement. Kade dies. I mean he dies fast. Always worth it because he kills for hunting party or he kills nekima level models. I was thinking angel eyes as  a "bully" against these minions that csn do average to high damage but cant stand it.

[santaclaws01]

52 minutes ago, Dimitri said:

I am running dreamer mostly as summoner. I was trying to find a way to compliment my defensive playstyle.most of the times i hire 2 waldgeists and when i need to go killy i hire kade to charge at the guys lilitu lured on waldgeists 4" engagement. Kade dies. I mean he dies fast. Always worth it because he kills for hunting party or he kills nekima level models. I was thinking angel eyes as  a "bully" against these minions that csn do average to high damage but cant stand it.

Bloodwretches are actually really good bullies, especially if you can give them fast first which lets them hit well outside their cost.

[D_acolyte]

Her damage is about normal for range attacks (might be on the lowish side for sever damage), which is to say no where near as good as our close combat attack or things like gamble for your life. This is the thing about range models, 3/4/5 damage flips without triggers is rare. See makes an ok cleaner or support model to activate late and get that needed kill. She is not even bad as an independent operative harassing the side. but if your expecting the god of shooting or even one that could equate to the damage of some of our cheaper beaters, there are very few non master shooters that can do that on there own with most of them being in the gremlins.

[D_acolyte]

5 hours ago, Dimitri said:

I am running dreamer mostly as summoner. I was trying to find a way to compliment my defensive playstyle.most of the times i hire 2 waldgeists and when i need to go killy i hire kade to charge at the guys lilitu lured on waldgeists 4" engagement. Kade dies. I mean he dies fast. Always worth it because he kills for hunting party or he kills nekima level models. I was thinking angel eyes as  a "bully" against these minions that csn do average to high damage but cant stand it.

This does not compute, this does not compute...... I find if your going to play defensively as the neverborn you have sort of chosen the wrong faction. I especially believe this with the Dreamer as he has a lot of way to get his models moving around and attacking. He does not want to be in the thick of it but his Teddy does, I remember once that a friend was told me "you know the dreamer had a range attack" my answer "I also have a teddy and empty night" what happened next shocked him as Teddy yoyoed between two enemies killing one of them and injuring the other. Then I accomplieded into Teddy flurrying and killing that one, a rail golem and Howard died.

Best of luck playing defensively. Post what you think of that sometimes, should be an interesting read.

[Dimitri]

2 minutes ago, D_acolyte said:

This does not compute, this does not compute...... I find if your going to play defensively as the neverborn you have sort of chosen the wrong faction. I especially believe this with the Dreamer as he has a lot of way to get his models moving around and attacking. He does not want to be in the thick of it but his Teddy does, I remember once that a friend was told me "you know the dreamer had a range attack" my answer "I also have a teddy and empty night" what happened next shocked him as Teddy yoyoed between two enemies killing one of them and injuring the other. Then I accomplieded into Teddy flurrying and killing that one, a rail golem and Howard died.

Best of luck playing defensively. Post what you think of that sometimes, should be an interesting read.

Its probably my English but i can sense some sarcasm here. Defensive in my mind doesnt mean to create a fort and fart your opponents out of it. If you play schemes and dance around your opponent is defensive I think as opposed to killing your opponent's models and forcing them to use resources to defend themselves. How often you do the teddy trick? I don't question your skill. I am playing for some months and a total of 20 games. It is not working for me. What i say is something that can be a general approach. When teddy's death gives vp? You still do that? If you hate stuff go for it. If you like feeling superior go for it. I ask questions to improve my self and to see other people's opinions. Sorry for "insulating" you with my playstyle and sorry for trying to use alternative models as well. I am sorry man i don't use mctavish. Should i use only lilith with nekima and johan? 

[Dimitri]

D_acolyte i didn't mean to be disrespectful. I just think that your coments were mocking instead of helping. My problem with this thing is the same with everything that has pro players and meta testers. If the meta tester says that you believe it as law (not you man, I don't know you. You may be a super cool person and i misjudged you. If we met i will apologise personally for my rage) and if someone else try something then you discourage him (not you...). So i just bought to be honest the starter box. It costs a significant amount of money. I want to try the models and also listen to people's opinion on them. For the record i read your posts occasionally and i think you understand the game deeply. If you live in uk you may crush me at a tournament. But thats not the point. The point is that i am not a penguin to "upload my thoughtsto entertain you". Pease man.

 

And i will follow your advice for offensive game. 

[D_acolyte]

1 minute ago, Dimitri said:

Its probably my English but i can sense some sarcasm here. Defensive in my mind doesnt mean to create a fort and fart your opponents out of it. If you play schemes and dance around your opponent is defensive I think as opposed to killing your opponent's models and forcing them to use resources to defend themselves. How often you do the teddy trick? I don't question your skill. I am playing for some months and a total of 20 games. It is not working for me. What i say is something that can be a general approach. When teddy's death gives vp? You still do that? If you hate stuff go for it. If you like feeling superior go for it. I ask questions to improve my self and to see other people's opinions. Sorry for "insulating" you with my playstyle and sorry for trying to use alternative models as well. I am sorry man i don't use mctavish. Should i use only lilith with nekima and johan? 

There was some sarcasms and a bit of humor at the beginning and not meant to attack you. It looks like you take it personally especially with your last few comments. You mentioned games, I do not know how many I have played with neverborn, it has been a lot. You mentioned hate and superior that is not what went through my mind. I recommend not taking things on the forum so seriously that it hurts you especially because your jumping to conclusions.

I play by applying pressure in the center and having things score around the side of the board. As for the Teddy trick, it is rare to use him that exact way as I generally need to have two-three enemies near each other and also have dreamer with in 6 inches of Teddy at the end but it is not uncommon for me to have both a Teddy and summoned Lelu in combat often killing things end of turn one. If they get points for killing Teddy, so be it especially in the GG2016 schemes I find worrying about the enemy schemes tend to give them more power then I want to.

I tend to call the dancing around getting schemes as scheming or dancing vs being defensive. Also if you are taking 2 waldgeists and luring people in you as you stated earlier that is making a fortress or kill zone. If your goal is to scheme and dance, the Dreamer tends not to be the ideal master as he tends to like having people around him and they tend to like being near him.

I was honest, write a post about your style it would be an interesting read.

[D_acolyte]

6 minutes ago, Dimitri said:

If you live in uk you may crush me at a tournament. But thats not the point. The point is that i am not a penguin to "upload my thoughtsto entertain you". Pease man.

I am not a good tournament player, I tend not to play the differentials (I know how I just do not care to) well and my style is a win or loose big style.

I understand the game because I am what happens when gamers breed, still trying to beat my father in a game.... Generally I do not mean to belittle a person, I use humor before I am about to say something possibly harsh or unwanted because I am trying to be less of an ass, which is hard. I naturally come off as a sardonic person for various reasons especially in text medium (if you want to know what I hate it is righting, I have enough problems understanding people much less putting my own inflection to it when reading). I was working on my last reasponce when you posted yours as well, time delay with this stuff is a pain. I try to stay away from personal attacks when possible as they never help so I am sorry if you feel I was attacking you personally.

13 minutes ago, Dimitri said:

The point is that i am not a penguin to "upload my thoughtsto entertain you". Pease man.

It is not a matter of entertainment but thought and discussion, hence why I said interesting not humorous or entertaining. I am curious on how others tackle the game differently from me and love reading post that have a different point of view. I believe the global meta is somewhat stalled out and that there are to many that are trying things that do not post there thoughts, ideas, theories, success and pain when trying something different. I am generally a very simple person and will post things as clearly as possible.

I did a post on my opinion of the starter box models, I will try to find it.

 

[D_acolyte]

This is an old post and is worth what you paid for it, that is nothing. I tend to really like the Scion and Wretches more then Angel Eyes. This  post was my initial impressions.

Also if you have the full starter box and did not sell the guild you might want to look at the orderlies for scheme runners, though our faction has a lot of those.

[Dimitri]

Ok. D_acolyte i will be honest. I didn't like the way you said your point. I apologise to you. I will upload my today results if any. I play against a local veteran so it will be tough. Thanks for your reply and for clearing the misunderstanding. I hope there are not hard feelings over there. Here there aren't hard feelings.

 

Thanks and sorry mate

[D_acolyte]

I have none. Best of luck.

[Dimitri]

Thanks mate. I play today with a local veteran who is notorious for pandora and lilith. So i will let you know how my defensive setting went. 

[Dimitri]

I played the game yesterday but i had no luck... apparently you were right about playing more offensive and about angel eyes.

[Sybarite]

I would rather want Anna Lovelace for 1 ss more shooting into combat with weak dg 3, and doing all her other stuff

[Adran]

It is perfectly possible to play neverborn, and the dreamer in particular, with a defensive mindframe. The current uk number 1 generally does. But Dreamer can also support an offensive play style. 

Angel eyes will support a crew at mid range much better than the Trapper would, but she won't be shooting models off the table from across the whole board. 

I can certainly see a use for her with the dreamer,  just slightly back, and shooting  engaged models to soften them up for the rest of the crew. Is that worth her cost? Sometimes is probably the answer. 

[Math Mathonwy]

In general I'd say that all the starter box models (except Blood Wretches if you can give them Fast and possibly Grimwell if you can give him Focus easily) are at the lower end of the power curve in this game. None are horrible enough to make you lose a game or anything but all are about 1SS too expensive.

[chryspainthemum]

My current play with dreamer is to go mctavish and then 2-3 swampfiends depending on the schemes and terrain. It works in a defensive style by forcing my opponent to deal with the Hexed swampfiends turns 1 and 2, which gives me the time needed to get the dreamer factory up full force. Mctavish at shoot 8 is also wonderous. In light of mctavish I have to really question Angel eyes' purpose.