Theorycrafting changes in current models

[Surrealistik]

16 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

I'm still not convinced the enhanced tag-along benefits are necessary, especially with the sanctioned spellcaster in faction, but the addition to power loop solves both problems that will develop with power creep over time: that boosting (say) defenses to 6 has meant less as more models were released with an attack not at the baseline of 5, and that there were more armor ignoring options available to all factions as well. And yes, it would make the tactical decision of what to loop when be influenced by defensive needs again, instead of just offensive (because spreading around that number 7 for melee is more attractive and urgent than spreading that number 6). Also, tying the armor-negation-negation to power loop means there comes a counter to it again in condition removal, which should ease the minds of our opponents knowing that a counter still exists--they'll just have to spend AP for it.

I'd say the proposed buffs to Magnetic are necessary to prevent the enhanced Remote Mines from being an autopick all the time every time; definitely feel Hoffman needs some kind of baseline ability to deal with his most potent counter.

[Fetid Strumpet]

You are making a mistake in thinking that the counter was accidental. Many of the arguments during the open about Hoffman, though there weren't that many, probably because he isn't as popular a master as others, focused on how powerful looping in high stats and giving them to other models was. If I remember correctly one of the counter arguments was that its limiting factor was that if you broke the Hoffball up it wasn't as powerful. Suggesting changing an obviously intended weakness without commensurate rebalancing of the abilities the model has that are limited by that weakness, without showing how the abilities it would then posses aren't out of whack with the other models in the game who are deemed to be in balance isn't really a good argument.

[trikk]

I actually wouldn`t change much for Hoff. Probably just change Remote Mines to be a bit better because they are clearly the "off" upgrade.

 

While Hoff is vulnerable to Armour ignoring there usually is not a lot of models that do it. I think he`s strongest counter is Victoria of Blood. If you make a balanced list with 3-4 constructs and a normal crew I think he`s more than capable of winning most non-Interference games.

[Surrealistik]

1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

You are making a mistake in thinking that the counter was accidental. Many of the arguments during the open about Hoffman, though there weren't that many, probably because he isn't as popular a master as others, focused on how powerful looping in high stats and giving them to other models was. If I remember correctly one of the counter arguments was that its limiting factor was that if you broke the Hoffball up it wasn't as powerful. Suggesting changing an obviously intended weakness without commensurate rebalancing of the abilities the model has that are limited by that weakness, without showing how the abilities it would then posses aren't out of whack with the other models in the game who are deemed to be in balance isn't really a good argument.

Hoffman still has a glaring weakness in that his scheme running game isn't really great, his activations are typically worse, and condition removal still ruins his day even with the proposed changes, despite those changes making him a truly foremost beatstick master.

These changes would serve to make him competitive with other high tier masters rather than relegate him to conditional mediocrity (not shit tier with Lucius, I wouldn't go that far) which is where he's currently at. The fact is that despite my love of the guy, I have way more success with Sonnia and Perdita, because Hoffman is just that easy to interrupt and counter, especially with ubiquitous (and undercosted as fuck; Wyrd plz fix) models like Rotten Belles.

[4thstringer]

Im not sure I've seen condition removal ruin hoffs day,  And I think his scheme running is top notch.   His scheme denial has some real problems though,  And I don't like him in recon/interference.   But he feels like a solid b tier master to me.   

[admiralvorkraft]

Peacekeeper is a great scheme denial piece, and Hoffman can get a second use out of its (0) through OSA.

Mostly the problem is that Belles are outrageously efficient. But that's not a new problem or one that I expect to be resolved before M3E.

I really don't think that Hoffman needs fixing - he's fun and competitive, if not Levi grade (which, honestly, is fine). His bad match-ups are ultimately things that I struggle with no matter what I'm running.

[trikk]

Also I think Guild actually has pretty good anti-lure options.

Sonnia with CounterSpell Aura

Dispel Magic

Sidir + By Your Side

Sanctioned Spellcaster

[Surrealistik]

4 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

Im not sure I've seen condition removal ruin hoffs day,  And I think his scheme running is top notch.   His scheme denial has some real problems though,  And I don't like him in recon/interference.   But he feels like a solid b tier master to me.   

What I mean is that condition removal kills both the Power Loop, and the immunities that piggy back off the Power Loop per the proposed fixes.

And yeah, by scheme running I lumped denial with actually carrying them out, but it's probably more accurate to separate those things out.

 

3 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Peacekeeper is a great scheme denial piece, and Hoffman can get a second use out of its (0) through OSA.

Mostly the problem is that Belles are outrageously efficient. But that's not a new problem or one that I expect to be resolved before M3E.

I really don't think that Hoffman needs fixing - he's fun and competitive, if not Levi grade (which, honestly, is fine). His bad match-ups are ultimately things that I struggle with no matter what I'm running.

Why do you feel Belles won't get Cuddled until M3E? They're blatantly OP, why do we have to wait until another edition?

Also, pulls in general rek him as is.

 

That all said, I want to see Hoffman not on the level of Levi (who is kind of OP) but more so Perdita and Sonnia, and he currently isn't there because of his vulnerabilities to armour pen and forced movement. Maybe Sanctioned Spellcaster can help deal with that, but I doubt it seeing as Sidir is useful but ultimately inadequate (and costly).

 

[admiralvorkraft]

3 hours ago, Surrealistik said:

Why do you feel Belles won't get Cuddled until M3E? They're blatantly OP, why do we have to wait until another edition?

They (and Nurses) are too tightly woven into the fabric of the game, and the global meta seems to play Malifaux as a game of combos rather than a game of positioning. The protest will be that without access to Ca 8 lures Seamus isn't viable because his healing won't be as reliable (I don't buy it, but that's the argument I've seen on this forum), when the fact is that wargames are won by whoever can create the best localized concentration of force and Belles make that happen more or less by existing.

Of course the other argument is that Ressers aren't winning tournaments, which is fair, and maybe I'm just very bad at the game. It certainly feels that way sometimes.

[Ludvig]

The best argument I've seen is that ressers aren't really doing well in competative play.

I still can't grasp how not more people take double belles since so many schemes and strats depend on positioning. It's like the "auto-three-VP" of protect territory in the book schemes. A single belle going after you turn 5 can make sure you get 0VP on that "automatic" scheme even if you set it up with redundancy of using two models. Belle lists are also quite rude in headhunter where they don't need to leave their deployment but can single out any model they like with impunity so the rest of the list can eat you piecemeal while denying the strategy almost completely. Add to that the fact that they are sturdier than most 6ss guild minions and only cost 5ss themselves. They are so effective at taking people prisoner too, just make them come to you and slow them.

Also: a 5ss minion that Leveticus might actually need to work hard to bring down since he will need to cheat two severes or spend 3 AP is fairly badass.

[trikk]

Well, the Belle cuddle is one thing. 

While I very often face 2 belles and I find them pretty good I still think if you play vs Ressers you should probably have one of the previously mentioned  counters which make them less useful. When I play Arcanists vs Ressers my Captain always get Warding Runes. Same should happen in Guild.

I also don`t think Hoff or any other Guild master gets hits by Belles more than other factions. You can block LoS to your key pieces if necessary. 

 

[Ludvig]

Yeah, I don't see a cuddle coming and I'm not advocating one either. Not sure how you can stop it using currently released models except Sonnia. Sidir with an upgrade can mess with one of their attempts per turn if you bunch up (which is usually bad because of punk zombies and ridiculously good passive auras on hard to kill models).

[trikk]

Well, Sidir can block LoS with By Your Side so the other belle has to target someone else. 

Spellcaster can also be very good, but require you to win initiative.

 

I also think if your enemy invests 15-20SS for 2 belles and something to beat the lured enemy to a pulp it should probably get you some benefit. Additionally I think cuddling Belle Lure would probably require changes to Oiran Lure and Lilitu Lure.

[Ludvig]

As I said I don't think snuggling them at this point is an option.

Oiran have the same action without one of the necessary suits so I don't see why you would want to mess with their lure at all even if you did something to the belles. Lilitu is more expensive and can't be placed upfield as easily as belles, I was also under the impression that she only has Ca 7 which is what I have seen people advocate as the cuddle for belles. If she is Ca 8 I may need to get her on the table. 

The low Tn on the lure is strange to me since it makes it so good for luring friendlies. Compare it to graves who needs to fork up an 8 to get his push through (and is limited to once per turn on friendlies). When I see belles used it is often with Sybelle placing them upfield so they get better angles on hidden models or so that they can lure friendlies their walk +2 which is an ungodly burst of mobility for some models. Just imagine if you had that kind of mobility for your executioners or Sonnia turn 1! I am aware of how priceythe combo is but it's still pretty darn powerful in a game where getting the upper hand early can be very crucial. The fact that the belle can then companion makes them extremely potent pickers of heads as I noticed in my last game against Seamus. They can also just walk up to your carefully prepared gunline and have it gummed up for the rest of the game since the belles have so many wounds,

I don't consider spellcasters released until I hold a non-preordered, european-bought model in my hand  

[Surrealistik]

16 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

They (and Nurses) are too tightly woven into the fabric of the game, and the global meta seems to play Malifaux as a game of combos rather than a game of positioning. The protest will be that without access to Ca 8 lures Seamus isn't viable because his healing won't be as reliable (I don't buy it, but that's the argument I've seen on this forum), when the fact is that wargames are won by whoever can create the best localized concentration of force and Belles make that happen more or less by existing.

Of course the other argument is that Ressers aren't winning tournaments, which is fair, and maybe I'm just very bad at the game. It certainly feels that way sometimes.

A meta centralized around toxic, undercosted models doesn't deserve to exist and should be disrupted, also that argument on behalf of Seamus is sophistry.

With regards to Ressers not winning tournaments, didn't they pretty much clean house in the UK? Could you direct me to more recent stats?

 

12 hours ago, trikk said:

Well, the Belle cuddle is one thing. 

While I very often face 2 belles and I find them pretty good I still think if you play vs Ressers you should probably have one of the previously mentioned  counters which make them less useful. When I play Arcanists vs Ressers my Captain always get Warding Runes. Same should happen in Guild.

I also don`t think Hoff or any other Guild master gets hits by Belles more than other factions. You can block LoS to your key pieces if necessary. 

 

Hoff definitely is much more adversely affected by the Belle (and other) modes of destroying his positioning.

 

11 hours ago, trikk said:

Well, Sidir can block LoS with By Your Side so the other belle has to target someone else. 

Spellcaster can also be very good, but require you to win initiative.

 

I also think if your enemy invests 15-20SS for 2 belles and something to beat the lured enemy to a pulp it should probably get you some benefit. Additionally I think cuddling Belle Lure would probably require changes to Oiran Lure and Lilitu Lure.

The problem with Sidir (at least as Hoffman lists go) is his opportunity cost in SS, combined with the fact that it only negates one instance of forced movement.

Spellcaster is a much more economical choice, and it might fix Hoffman's lead problem, but I'm skeptical until I see it work in play.

 

Also Oiran and Lilitu lures aren't comparable to Belles which are egregiously undercosted.

[trikk]

I agree about Belles, but you could probably find a lot of models that should be changed to due being way too strong.

Obedient Wretch, Belles, Nurses, Francisco in some ways, Pigapult etc...

 

 

As for the other Lures, what I meant is if we drop Belles to Ca6-7 then Oirans should probably also have a change. I think unifying Lure to be Ca 6 with both suits would also be a nice thing. I like the same action to have the same stats/effects... 

[Surrealistik]

28 minutes ago, trikk said:

I agree about Belles, but you could probably find a lot of models that should be changed to due being way too strong.

Obedient Wretch, Belles, Nurses, Francisco in some ways, Pigapult etc...

 

 

As for the other Lures, what I meant is if we drop Belles to Ca6-7 then Oirans should probably also have a change. I think unifying Lure to be Ca 6 with both suits would also be a nice thing. I like the same action to have the same stats/effects... 

There are lots of levers for cuddling Belles; basically it comes down to either giving them an SS cost increase (though Levi would love this), or reducing their wounds (8 wounds and HtK on a 5 SS model? lol) and Ca. That said, a Belle cuddle doesn't necessarily mandate an Oiran cuddle as Oirans aren't undercosted; I don't think that perfect symmetry of same-name elements is necessary (also as far as I recall Malifaux is replete with violations of such already).

 

Also yeah, everything you just mentioned should probably see cuddles except Francisco, who while efficient isn't blatantly undercosted/overvalue; I think he seems better than he is thanks to the contrast principle.

[Omenbringer]

Despite this being a Guild Sub-forum you would have to include the Guild Austringers in the list of models needing a cuddle, especially if you are going to include the Pigapult (which is far more costly to run turn after turn)

[Fetid Strumpet]

I was going to stay out of this, but oh well, here we go again.

Surrealistik, I think your information is off. I collected information from the UK ranking site for all the listed tournaments since the 2015 UKGT which was held in November. 

UK GT: 1st TT, 2nd NB, 3rd Guild.

Under the Hanging Tree - Return to Grace: 1st Outcasts, 2nd NB, 3rd Gremlins.

Goblinfaux: 1st Outcasts, 2nd Arcanists, 3rd Ressers

Master Plan II: 1st TT, 2nd Ressers, 3rd Gremlins

Spring Showdown II: 1st NB, 2nd Ressers, 3rd Ressers

Heartfaux III: 1st NB, 2nd Arcanists, 3rd Guild

Cow Wars III: 1st NB, 2nd TT, 3rd NB

Spring Breach: 1st Outcasts, 2nd Arcanists, 3rd NB

The Normal One: 1st TT, 2nd NB, 3rd Outcasts

Expert Cheater: 1st TT, 2nd Arcanists, 3rd Ressers

Welsh GT: 1st Outcasts, 2nd NB, 3rd Ressers

GG@WGC: 1st Gremlins, 2nd NB, 3rd Guild

Bitefaux: 1st Arcanists, 2nd NB, 3rd TT

Brawl in the Great Hall: 1st Gremlins, 2nd Ressers, 3rd Arcanists

Haul of Eggs: 1st NB, 2nd Outcasts, 3rd NB

Boarfaux: 1st Outcasts, 2nd NB, 3rd NB

Under the Hanging Tree: 1st NB, 2nd NB, 3rd TT

Scrap at the Steelworks: 1st TT, 2nd Arcanists, 3rd NB

Gertfaux: 1st Ressers, 2nd NB, 3rd Arcanists

Love Hurts: 1st Outcasts, 2nd Outcasts, 3rd Arcanists

Showdown: 1st NB, 2nd NB, 3rd NB

Shattered Heart: 1st Arcanists, 2nd Ressers, 3rd Outcasts

Neverbourne: 1st Ressers, 2nd TT, 3rd Ressers

Ante Up: 1st Ressers, 2nd unknown, 3rd Unknown

Lost Love 4: 1st NB, 2nd Guild, 3rd Arcanists

Vapnartak: 1st Outcasts, 2nd Outcasts, 3rd TT

League of Extraordinary Henchman (Sun): 1st Arcanists, 2nd Guild, 3rd Arcanists

League of Extraordinary Henchman (Sat): 1st NB, 2nd NB, 3rd Guild

Welcome to Malifaux: 1st NB, 2nd NB, 3rd Gremlins

Frostbite: 1st Outcasts, 2nd Gremlins, 3rd TT

Troubleshooters: 1st TT, 2nd TT, 3rd Outcasts

Frozen Fury: 1st NB, 2nd Outcasts, 3rd TT

Rebels and Rioters: 1st NB, 2nd Guild, 3rd Outcasts

UKGT 2015: 1st Ressers, 2nd NB, 3rd Outcasts

And from discussions, though I can't find them again (my search faux is weak) one of the Ressers wins, I think it it was the 2015 GT, though I could be wrong on that, was won where the resser winner didn't even use a Belle in any of their games. 

So out of 34 of recorded tournaments since the UKGT 2015 the Ressers got onto the podium in 11 of them and won 4. Conversely Outcasts won 8, NB won 11, and TT won 6. So I'm not sure what your definition of "cleaning up" actually means in relation to the UK scene. Obviously the UK crowd would be better placed to comment on it, but from their records it doesn't seem to be the case. Additionally, the 2 biggest, 3 now I guess, events in the US would be Adepticon, Gen Con, and the Nova Open. Gen Con and Adepticon last year were both won by Guild, and from what I understand the same player wind both without changing any model in his list in all games. This Year's Adepticon was won by Outcasts (starting the whole Rat Joy Discussion). Ressers to my knowledge haven't won a single one of those events since M2E has come out. So your argument that Ressers are OP because of their theoretically OP models is exceptionally weak on anything regarding hard data. 

Additionally the argument for Seamus isn't Sophistry. The argument is actually you can't just cuddle a model without hard data proving that the model is actually causing a game imbalance problem because it would create unintended ripples. Seamus is the example of a ripple because his design (I was there through the open beta) was predicated on him having easy and cheap access to WP duels he can easily win. cuddling Belles to the point where he would need to expend more and more resources to actually take advantage of his ability, which was designed with the Ca 8 Lure in mind, would create the unintended ripple of making him weaker without something to replace it. He was designed around that spell and that CA, as you'll note that he is designed as an interlocking piece in a crew as he has absolutely no way to take advantage of his heal mechanic as the only WP he can case is Terror, and I can count on one hand the amount of times an enemy has failed a Terror check from Seamus since m2e started, since generally, in my experience, if you can't pass the duel you find something more useful to do with your AP. The argument isn't Seamus will be weaker so you can't change them, the argument is that Seamus is ONE example of unintended consequences, there would be more. The more unique and less critical to the faction as a whole a model is the easier to tone down a model is. Belles and their abilities have mostly stayed the same since the very 1st days of Malifuax, and a large extent of the design of Resser models and minions (not to mention all the counter WP and anti casting tech there is) is predicated on what they do. You'd almost, but not quite, have to revisit all of it. Is is possible that I could be overestimating the actual effects we'd see, absolutely. Is it equally possible the actual effect would be worse than what I think, absolutely as well.

As Trikk mentioned there are a lot of models in the game that are vastly better for their cost than they should warrant. Austringers, witching stalkers (a model for 6 ss with the attack and damage stats of 9SS killers, with condition removal to boot, and the ability to explode and cause 2 dmg when killed?) Francisco, The Illuminated, TT brothers, The Depleted (4SS for 8 wounds H2W and H2K as well as actually counting as a minion and a nasty on death effect?) slop haulers, Rooster Riders, Nekima, the Doppleganger, Hollow Waifs (2 get out of Death effects, and 2 activations for 0 SS?) the Malifaux rat, and masters like Colette, Kirai, and Levi. They are all in some circles regarded as way too good for their cost or in comparisons to other masters. To me, your comments on Francisco sort of invalidate your argument and reads like the classic Meme "Memo to Developers: Scissors feels Rock is OP, Paper is fine.". To clarify that isn't an attack on you, just your argument. There are a ton of models that are too good for their cost in the game, but the data overall doesn't show a need to cuddle any of them. Tournaments in m2e have been won by a large spread of factions, which can be seen even in the event listings for the UK, which is one of the more regular play communities in the world, far more of a spread, and in far greater numbers that was ever the case in 1E. In fact I think every faction can claim a win at a large tournament, 

Are Belles too good for their cost, probably, is it because of Ca 8 lure, absolutely not. Does the data to this point actually show a need to cuddle them, no. Are there other models in the game, in basically all factions that are similarly, and the the exact same extent belles are too good for their cost, yes. The data to this point, at least from what I've seen, which I'm sure is no where near as comprehensive as what Justin has gathered, would indicate if any faction needs a cuddle it's Outcasts, and they haven't gotten one, probably won't get one, and could be argued if it even needs one. In fact the only cuddles that I'm aware of that were not corrections of misprints involved basically 2 upgrades, and one model, and I'm suspicious of the regularly accepted wisdom of why the model cuddle occurred. The developers seem to indicate that they are happy with the current state of balance in the game, and that they are tired of threads exactly like this one, as the testing process is over. One of the criticisms that has been leveled at the open beta process is that after things are set and printed that since players had so much influence in altering models during the testing that they go on thinking that is going to be the case after the model is printed. I'd suggest that is probably one of the reasons that we were all surprised at the announcement of new masters and no open beta this time. I don't think the perpetual beta mentality was the sole reason we didn't get to see and test them before going to press, but I'd be willing to bet something it figured into their decision making process. It's going to be interesting to see how the new masters and whatever models they come with stack up balance wise to the old models.

 I remember the open when they weren't in their current configuration, and they didn't feel worth their 5 SS cost, and they always had their ca 8 lure, and that was in an era when several entries on the FAQ hadn't reigned in what was, at least in my groups, common use ages of Lure. Like getting pounce attacks even if you never moved when failing a Lure (probably a good thing that went away), and the generally accepted ability to think if the enemy had extra movement left after getting to the belle after a lure that the belle's player got to choose where they ended (again a good thing that was clarified). And when they were changed into their current configuration I argued it was a bad idea at the time, but would totally be using it if they got printed the way they are. To me the biggest thing that shouldn't have been improved was their speed. They were in 1.5, and for a good portion of the open walk 4, and they should have stayed walk 4. Getting those extra inches is critical to getting your belles to where you want, and additionally is critical to letting them also serve a dual purpose of being Scheme runner replacements in addition to their Luring potential. Walk 6 Belles are fine if you invest in Madam Sybelle (Cathouse Madam gave 2" extra walk when Belles were walk 4 and was downgraded to +1 when Belles walk was upgraded) as well but the constant extra pressure Belles get from that higher base walk stat is just too good at giving them better positional elements and.They also shouldn't have been given their Undress action (though that is less of an issue outside of certain lists), but both, I assume, were done because of the outcry of single use models being bad for the game and that all models needed to be multi use, even though some of us felt, and still do feel that being specialized is better, and enough.

Remember Belles basically do one thing which is bring your models closer to them, and they have to be there already. They don't get any option to control where and how you get there, they can't really hold you in place once you're there as their ML isn't that good. Their damage is below par, they basically don't do anything but Lure well, and if that were reduced they would never be taken. Doxies ability for a 0 which not only gives them a move but gives you total choice of distance and direction is better if you are assuming you are actually going to have to spend a high card to make it work. Jaakuna Ubume has a Lure at 6, as well as a ML of 7 and a hazardous terrain aura, for 1 stone more and an ability for 0 which stops walk actions in addition to a ranged attack option, not a good one to be sure, but one that's there. Both of those models would be hired almost 100% of the time instead of Belles if their Ca was reduced to 6, and that ignores the fact that models that have Lure at CA6 without other factors just aren't hired all that often. Ask NB players how often Beckoners are useful for their Lure, and that is with an auto trigger giving them a free push move when they cast the spell, regardless of whether they succeed, and a really good ranged attack option, both of which can combo into actually causing damage when combined with Pandora.

In closing, I'm not anti-cuddle. I'm 100% in the category that a company should keep an eye on their product and adjust as carefully, though constantly as possible, any models that actually wreck the balance of the game. I certainly think Wyrd could potentially do a little more in terms of rebalancing than they currently do, but maybe I'm wrong. Justin has enumerated in the past in various threads for both this edition and the last edition why he feels that constant rebalancing is very detrimental for miniature games in particular, and though I don't always agree with his points, I do respect them. I'm 100% of the opinion that if the hard data exists that a particular model is the reason that a particular faction is winning way more than they should alter the model, as minimally as possible, but they should do it. Aside from anecdote there really is very little data to suggest Belles potentially being too good for their cost is creating such a situation. In much the same way that Francisco and the Austringers being vastly too good for their cost isn't leading to Guild win after Guild win. In fact, according to hard data, there is a better argument for altering Austringers than there is for altering Belles as I believe they were a fixture of the Sonnia list that won Gen Con and Adepticon last year, though I might be misremembering. However I would still be one of the first people to say that though they are too good for their cost they shouldn't be altered, at the moment, because it isn't as if Guild is winning Tournament after Tournament because of them, which means that in the overall scheme of things they are being balanced out in some way. Same for the vast majority of models in the game at the moment. If Ressers started to go on a roll winning Tournament after Tournament, and it could be proved that Belles were the problem (unlikely at this point but it could happen) I'd be the first one to say give Seamus something else that could help him stay alive and look at toning down the Belle. At the moment that isn't the case.

[Surrealistik]

That's a lot of content to go over, and I don't have the time to do it currently, but I think there are a couple of fundamental misunderstandings:

#1: My point is that Ressers have done reasonably well on the competitive scene, including many tournament wins and podium placements.

#2: My concern is with specific models being overpowered, and the Rotten Belle is certainly one; at no point did I claim or state that Ressers as a faction is OP; if anything that would be true of Outcasts, yes.

#3: Whether or not Francisco is OP is arguable; the same is not true of the Rotten Belle; it is my view that Francisco is efficient and high value but not quite undercosted; though it's anecdotal, I have yet to see Fran complained about and cuddles demanded for anywhere near as much as Belles. Furthermore, even if I were exhibiting bias against non-Guild factions (I play Levi Outcast just about as much btw, I post mainly in Guild because Levi Outcast pretty much never comes up short in fundamental ways because Levi Outcast is probably the most overpowered faction/master combo in the game), that doesn't mean Belles aren't overpowered. Further, contrary to such accusations of bias, I will also say that Austringers are probably undercosted.

[Omenbringer]

I think the major issue with Lure is the long range on tables with out enough blocking terrain (the same can be said of "sniper" models). While I do think their Ca of 8 is one point to high, "cuddling" them is something that needs to be done surgically as a major part of their design is that singular ability.

[Adran]

14 hours ago, Surrealistik said:

That's a lot of content to go over, and I don't have the time to do it currently, but I think there are a couple of fundamental misunderstandings:

#1: My point is that Ressers have done reasonably well on the competitive scene, including many tournament wins and podium placements.

#2: My concern is with specific models being overpowered, and the Rotten Belle is certainly one; at no point did I claim or state that Ressers as a faction is OP; if anything that would be true of Outcasts, yes.

#3: Whether or not Francisco is OP is arguable; the same is not true of the Rotten Belle; it is my view that Francisco is efficient and high value but not quite undercosted; though it's anecdotal, I have yet to see Fran complained about and cuddles demanded for anywhere near as much as Belles. Furthermore, even if I were exhibiting bias against non-Guild factions (I play Levi Outcast just about as much btw, I post mainly in Guild because Levi Outcast pretty much never comes up short in fundamental ways because Levi Outcast is probably the most overpowered faction/master combo in the game), that doesn't mean Belles aren't overpowered. Further, contrary to such accusations of bias, I will also say that Austringers are probably undercosted.

Regarding point 3

I argue that the rotten belle is not overpowered. It is powerful in the right circumstance. 

I've followed the forums for quite a while, and there are lots of threads out there saying they see el mayor as too powerful. Frank is too strong, and that it should be changed. I personally think that this is due to people not knowing at first how to play around the bonus. As an experienced player, I certainly don't find el mayor a problem. (I think a lot of it is when you start to play, stats seem king. Perdita is viewed as an over powered master due to her Df, and high ranged damage. As you get more experience in the game, you learn how to deal with high stats and she falls back into the pack from a power level point of view). 

Since you argued that the UK meta had ressers doing well, and implied that this was related to belles. I know the UK GT winner doesn't use belles. He is currently top rated resser in the UK, and I don't think he owns a belle. So a lot of the Resser success that the UK scene has nothing to do with rotten belles. The largest success I've heard about is the Chicago group finding belle spam to be the best thing ever, even better than sliced bread.  And that thread is over 2 years old. I've no idea if they still think that, and have just all gone on to play different lists by agreement, or if they no longer find the list to be as all conquering. The people are still about, and playing. 

 

[trikk]

While I can agree that Belles are not OP. I believe if they were 6SS they wouldnt suddenly stop being used which means they are a bit undercosted. Same thing can be said for 7SS austringers I think.

 

A prime example is the 2ss pukeworm who would be totally worth it if it costed 3SS

[LunarSol]

I'm personally not a fan of adjusting points to rules.  I don't find it actually has a positive effect on list building.  Generally you tweak something's points and it either becomes no longer worth taking or if it is, you lose flexibility that decreases diversity elsewhere in lists.  I think adjusting rules to fit the points generally works out better.

[trikk]

Sure, but if you up a model`s cost and its not losing your viablity then something is off. Same if you drop the model by X points and they are still bad there also might be a design flaw.