how i would fix lucius

[izikial]

Lucius I widely regarded as the weakest or on of the weakest masters, this makes me sad as I love him

so what would I do to fix him. This is just my opinion and I'm willing to accept my suggestions are "op" but I'm just throwing ideas out there and I would love your thoughts on what to do

what do I perceive as his failings?

I see a few

card intensive: Lucius wants so many cards both for discards and there suites

Ss intensive: Lucius isn't capable of much withought suits and cards already being limited forces him into a Ss heavy play style

falls flat withought minions: Most puppet masters are still capable solo or are very good at keeping there crew alive, Lucius dose neith of those

stunted theme: almost every master has a strong crew theme and a box that supports it, Lucius dose not. from his crew box you normaly use 1 lawyer if that and his concept of mimics is just stealing from othere masters (candy, graves) and the guardsman concept I so dull

cramped design space: Lucius is trapped in a place of mediocrity as other masters do his stuff better (collet is a good lucius effectively, collodi and dreamer run minions better) and his unique elements are week/under expanded.

what would I do to fix this?

as wyrd dont want to errata or redo cards/ models we arnt going to change anything currant, so insted I have a few model ideas. I'm intending to strengthen lucius' theme while making him stronger. I will be talking about mostly neverborn modles as guild Lucius already a larger themed pool.

totems (4 ideas)

a totem that can mark an enemy so the next devils deal hurts the enemy insted

a totem with a lenny style aura possibly masks insted

a totem that cant be hurt by friendly's /devils deal (may be to strong but it would have week stats)

a totem that heals of passed horror duels

henchmen

I find it sad that Lucius dosnt have a neverborn henchman and that he cant do much with them, so below is 2 ideas for how to execute a Lucius henchman, both are mimics

1

a henchman that can shift into any minion/enforcer mimic (guardsman with an upgrade on Lucius), you place the modle next to it and then bury it. This lets you command your henchman and have access to what you need at the time. When not transformed it would be a manipulative stall price that can make an enforcer count as a minion for friendly's untill turn end. The shift could have a trigger on ram and on mask to give the created modle an aura that gives out the same suit. Summoned modle would not gain slow

2

a henchman that has a mask or ram aura (possibly the ability to swap from one to the other) it counts as a minion for friendly modles, it has an average to good attack with a ram trigger for heal and a mask for card draw. It can push 3" everytime a horror duel if preformed

so that's my ideas, as you can see my "fix's" push the health Sac for Ss and horror duel elements as they are the only real thing that's unique to Lucius. And fixing his suit issue but giving the enemy a counter to it. They may be to good or not enough but I'm just throwing out my ideas

thoughts? What would would you do?

[Ludvig]

They did it metal gamin so why not errata him? I think he is stronger in neverborn than guild, partly because of better minions and partly because of a lot more regen. Also note that guardsmen are his theme since first edition so in my mind he should have more synergy with them and bring them to neverborn like most masters do with their themed models.

To fix him, I'd start by lowering the Tn on issue command to 11 and let it target the same minion several times. This would match Hoffman who needs a four to do his obey that can target better models, the same model several times and give fast. It would also come closer to matching Colette who can make better models do a push and attack which is also more or less two AP but often better since you can disengage.

I'd also lower the horror test on commanding prescence to 11 or 12. He should also probably get hidden sniper on his base card (without needing a ram to go through) and have the sword cane removed and added as some sort of upgrade that did something fun. His totem or an upgrade could add some card draw, possibly tied to conditions on enemies like Zoraida's or just automatic like the arcanist upgrade. Guild intelligence could also include any model instead of minions.

He should probably be able to draw cards when minions die since that is the easiest way to neutralize him (and crap cards are his other greatest weakness).

An alternative route would be to push some sort of denial theme and let him add the Red tape condition at much greater ranges and automatically.

 

All of these changes might push him a little too far but I think that just making him more reliable at forcing minions and applying red tape over greater ranged for instance would do wonders.

[Clockwork Top Hat]

32 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

They did it metal gamin so why not errata him? I think he is stronger in neverborn than guild, partly because of better minions and partly because of a lot more regen. Also note that guardsmen are his theme since first edition so in my mind he should have more synergy with them and bring them to neverborn like most masters do with their themed models.

To fix him, I'd start by lowering the Tn on issue command to 11 and let it target the same minion several times. This would match Hoffman who needs a four to do his obey that can target better models, the same model several times and give fast. It would also come closer to matching Colette who can make better models do a push and attack which is also more or less two AP but often better since you can disengage.

I'd also lower the horror test on commanding prescence to 11 or 12. He should also probably get hidden sniper on his base card (without needing a ram to go through) and have the sword cane removed and added as some sort of upgrade that did something fun. His totem or an upgrade could add some card draw, possibly tied to conditions on enemies like Zoraida's or just automatic like the arcanist upgrade. Guild intelligence could also include any model instead of minions.

He should probably be able to draw cards when minions die since that is the easiest way to neutralize him (and crap cards are his other greatest weakness).

An alternative route would be to push some sort of denial theme and let him add the Red tape condition at much greater ranges and automatically.

 

All of these changes might push him a little too far but I think that just making him more reliable at forcing minions and applying red tape over greater ranged for instance would do wonders.

He can take Guardsmen in NB but he needs the Surprisingly Loyal upgrade to do so. 

I like the idea of Lucius using legal contracts to punish an opponent's crew for using their abilities but not sure how that would be applied.

[Gnomezilla]

ikizial's idea of being able to apply minion as a condition OR characteristic to non-minions (which word, I leave to the rules wonks) is intriguing.

Ludvig is absolutely right, Lucius' card numbers needed are FAR higher than anyone else's, and don't need to be. They don't need to be as low as Hoffman's, that's his own bonus, but certainly not higher than the other support masters while Lucius is already running the horror duel risks.

Or for giggles, give Lucius a (1) tactical action to shift a condition from any model with red tape to any other model with red tape. Paralyzed one of his minions? Oh no, paralyzed something much more threatening of yours. Pseudo-transfusion from lawyer's poisons. Strip fees from an enemy that's already activated and apply it to something yet to activate. Could be fun.

[Nical]

I agree Lucius's problems are from his inefficiency.

His actions / abilities use up his minions or need more card values, but they are not "more" effective than others. so if I fix him.....

 

Issue command / Commanding Presence

Ludvig said about their problem and lowering their TN / Horror Test, but I have other solution. I think if Lucius can take mimic / guardsmen, he may order them, too. So I fix at least one of them Include "any mimic / guardsmen"   

 

Attack Actions

Lucius's Attack actions are not great. Hidden Sniper is good but it needs 2ss and it has TN, and using Sword Cane usually means "Something is wrong". So I think Lucius needs initial Range Attack or more useful melee attack. 

 

Guild Intelligence

I think it will be better as  giving "this models can Interact while engaged" condition. 

[Ludvig]

I second the suggestion that he should be able to use his abilities on any guardsman/mimic.

I don't agree that Hoffman's only thing is his low Tn on his cast. He can also give out upgrades and boost the stats of his models which is huge. Don't forget that if you kill all his constructs his attack is also better than Lucius' and he can steal enemy actions.

[bigbopper]

Its small but i think the ability to hire guardsmen and mimics from another faction should be on the front of his card rather than a upgrade. Red tape should be until the end of the enemy models next activation. my 2 cents

[bigbopper]

also issue command should have a trigger on a crow that heals the target model 1-2 wounds.

[lusciousmccabe]

Guild Intelligence should be a 8" aura on the front of his card. The disparity between it as a (1) Action and what Colette has is shocking. 

What Lackeys Are For should be a (0) action, and possibly give him the option of remaining where he is.

Secret Objectives should give him Instinctual.

Surprisingly Loyal should let him target any Guardsman or Mimic with Issue Command and Commanding Presence (and get rid of that useless trigger).

Or they should just give him a Cache of 9. 

[izikial]

So I ask you this, if they were to "fix" him do you think they would get it right, or do you think they would be to gentle and not do enough or over balance and make him op?

I personally think wyrd is happy with him as he is and if they do anything it would be a 0ss upgrade

[Nical]

I have played 3 minion-focused masters - Dreamer, Collodi and Lucius. And I think Lucius is lesser competitive than others and he needs to fix to make him compete with others. So you may think my ideas make him OP because my balance standards are others and they are solid masters.

 

For example, Collodi and Dreamer can use their AP Transfer actions for minions to their "theme models". But Lucius can't. 

And Collodi and Dreamer have initial range attacks and some trigger / abilities to protect themselves. But Lucius doesn't have any initial Range attack and I think he is not tougher than them. 

Finally, Collodi can summon some low cost puppets and control opponents, and Dreamer can summon nightmares and control opponents too. so I think Lucius needs to do more things like them or get more advantages in his own jobs. 

Additionally, I will keep playing Lucius whether he gets some buffs or not. 

[lusciousmccabe]

If there was a major re-work to Lucius I'd actually prefer if he got his own niche, rather than just a more effective version of his current design. The problem as I see it is that literally everything Lucius does can be accomplished by someone else, and usually better. As an additional kick in the teeth many of his direct competition are in-faction, making him plainly uncompetitive. 

You could easily give Lucius a straight bump in power without upsetting the balance of the game. The problem is that because his abilities are so common it would be hard to boost him to the exact power level his competitors without putting him over the top, which would then make them uncompetitive. I came up with an idea a while back for a Lucius build that kept a fair amount of his abilities, but debuffed the enemy rather than bufffing his own guys. I won't bother posting it as it's basically fan-fiction, but I think if you want Lucius as a competitive option he really should bring something unique to the table. At the very least it would make it harder draw unfavourable comparisons between him and other masters. 

[izikial]

if they were to rework now would be a good time considering story events, but they either have to render old Lucius rules Lucius, and that would be awkward for people who don't have the book and are used to old Lucius, or releas a drastically dif modle and that would invalidate old Lucius modles

[SpiralngCadavr]

First, the premise.

On 4/22/2016 at 5:59 AM, izikial said:

card intensive: Lucius wants so many cards both for discards and there suites

Ss intensive: Lucius isn't capable of much withought suits and cards already being limited forces him into a Ss heavy play style

falls flat withought minions: Most puppet masters are still capable solo or are very good at keeping there crew alive, Lucius dose neith of those

stunted theme: almost every master has a strong crew theme and a box that supports it, Lucius dose not. from his crew box you normaly use 1 lawyer if that and his concept of mimics is just stealing from othere masters (candy, graves) and the guardsman concept I so dull

cramped design space: Lucius is trapped in a place of mediocrity as other masters do his stuff better (collet is a good lucius effectively, collodi and dreamer run minions better) and his unique elements are week/under expanded.

Agreed on resources.

Not particularly on Minions- yes, you do better with them, but Lucius can really get in the way and is a decent fighter if he needs to be.

I agree that his box is poor, but there are several others in a similar place.

I like his theme well enough.

I 100% agree that others do what he does better... so much of what he has to offer is simply his cross-faction capabilities, since that's what he can do that others can't.

 

Solutions

On 4/22/2016 at 5:59 AM, izikial said:

totems (4 ideas)

(...)

henchmen

I find it sad that Lucius dosnt have a neverborn henchman and that he cant do much with them, so below is 2 ideas for how to execute a Lucius henchman, both are mimics

1

a henchman that can shift (...)

2

a henchman that (...) counts as a minion for friendly modles,

I disagree about the totems. The Scion of the Void had similar patching initially, and anything like that has unintended consequences. I think that some form of just plain old direct errata/upgrade patching would be more effective. Give his totem some great ability on a free upgrade or give him an autoinclude upgrade. It's not what I'd prefer, but it's better IMHO than making a new piece that needs to interact with a vast number of things across a faction. Also, more models and you run into problems like Tara's ever-expanding list of pseudo-patches or Lucius's own emissary that's hard to justify since it's not a minion.

I think that something that interacts with hand, minion health/damage, or horror duels would be obvious directions that would make him more efficient.

I like the shifting role option is a nice one.

 

In practice, I find him an interesting puzzle, of trying to find ways of making minions more effective while balancing it with enough strong models and enough minions to actually take advantage of said effectiveness.

[lusciousmccabe]

I think they could probably make a new version while keeping the old one legal if they wanted to. He's already completely redundant, so couldn't be made more so with a new version. The only issue I can forsee is the risk of confusion over which version of Lucius someone is playing (particularly if his crew got changes as well). They could call the new version Lucius Matheson or something, stick in an extra set of cards into his boxes and make them available somewhere else for current players.

None of this is going to happen though; it's pretty clear that they only want to patch models by adding upgrades or synergy with new models (Emmisaries for example). While I'd love to see a full re-write for Lucius and co. the best case scenario is that he gets patched enough to have some viable builds and you just have to ignore all the useless stuff on his base card, upgrades and thematic models. 

[SpiralngCadavr]

Yeah, wish they'd errata things other than just OP or errors since underpowered is just a different kind of skewing.

Have any of the patches taken the form of master upgrades (i.e. for their 3 slots) yet?

[izikial]

not yet, that I'm aware of. I dont think any upgrade with a masters name on has come out after there book (except emissary upgrades), I think Lucius would be fine with it as he tends to not use all 3 unless your going for funky build like melee lucius

[Eclipse]

Lucius does not need 'fixing', he's not broken. He needs planning, skill and a strong minion pool. What he brings to the table is unique hire options for his current faction, and this means he is practically more powerful here in Neverborn (imo).
That being said I do agree that both his order abilities requiring 7+ is a bit too much. Even though Lucius is quite fun having to cheat his every order so that you would have to cheat the action generated by said order and fail is depressing. Like Ludvig said just lower the TN of Issue Command to 11 and the Horror Duel to 12 and things should be much better.

[bigbopper]

4 hours ago, Eclipse said:

Lucius does not need 'fixing', he's not broken. He needs planning, skill and a strong minion pool. What he brings to the table is unique hire options for his current faction, and this means he is practically more powerful here in Neverborn (imo).
That being said I do agree that both his order abilities requiring 7+ is a bit too much. Even though Lucius is quite fun having to cheat his every order so that you would have to cheat the action generated by said order and fail is depressing. Like Ludvig said just lower the TN of Issue Command to 11 and the Horror Duel to 12 and things should be much better.

I agree. If anything he needs a tweak.Wyrd makes those tweaks on upgrades rather than the cards though so I think all his target numbers ect won't change. He reeks of a model that wasn't playtested enough to be honest. I suspect that it was determined that his devils deal ability was more powerful than it has turned out to be. its a great ability but 3 damage that can not be reduced is nasty.

so after some thought my suggestion is this:

change his loop holes upgrade to 2ss. Remove the aura ability it is so situational I find I rarely ever get any use out of it.

put in and ability called something like "that contracts not binding" at the beginning of this models activation it may remove one condition. Maybe he can discard a card to do this. 

Give him a crow trigger on issue command that heals the targetmodel 2 wounds/ or removes a condition.

 Keeps the scheme marker stuff because as off gg 2016 it's not as good. 

Again just my 2 cents. 

 

[Bengt]

I must say that I'm not particular fond of the fix-with-an-upgrade approach since it removes an upgrade slot just to make the model "normal". I don't really know how good Neverborn/Guild generic upgrades are but Arcanists have some stellar ones (e.g. Arcane Reservoir, Imbued Energies) so even an enforcer can smart from losing an upgrade slot. And as Tara has shown, putting the upgrades on other models to fix a master can cause a convoluted mess.

So I hope that if they do something about Lucius they pull off the plaster and shred all his old cards first.

[Myyrä]

6 minutes ago, Bengt said:

I must say that I'm not particular fond of the fix-with-an-upgrade approach since it removes an upgrade slot just to make the model "normal". I don't really know how good Neverborn/Guild generic upgrades are but Arcanists have some stellar ones (e.g. Arcane Reservoir, Imbued Energies) so even an enforcer can smart from losing an upgrade slot. And as Tara has shown, putting the upgrades on other models to fix a master can cause a convoluted mess.

So I hope that if they do something about Lucius they pull off the plaster and shred all his old cards first.

Lucius is actually one of the masters who has upgrade slots to spare. That being said, I don't like the upgrade fixes any more than you do.

[solkan]

On the other hand, it costs a lot less to put "This upgrade doesn't count against the crew construction limits, and cannot be removed" on an upgrade card than it does to errata a card.

Whether it's better to blackmail persuade Wyrd into producing an upgrade card with a scarlet "Errata" marked on top of it, I suppose that's a different question. 

 

[Myyrä]

Just now, solkan said:

On the other hand, it costs a lot less to put "This upgrade doesn't count against the crew construction limits, and cannot be removed" on an upgrade card than it does to errata a card.

Whether it's better to blackmail persuade Wyrd into producing an upgrade card with a scarlet "Errata" marked on top of it, I suppose that's a different question. 

 

I don't see how the upgrade card would be any cheaper if it is made available as widely as it should be, that is, in the crewbox, print on demand, some deck, and online.

[SpiralngCadavr]

8 hours ago, Eclipse said:

Lucius does not need 'fixing', he's not broken.

Broken in the sense that the game ceases to function around him? In the sense that he's too strong so influences the meta? Probably not. What about being basically universally considered at an extreme/end of a curve by everyone who's spent any time playing him? (positive or negative)

Because, I'd argue that weak models, while they don't affect the meta in the same way as strong ones, do still negatively impact the meta. 

 

I also don't understand the argument that printing and disseminating a card that is needed to (effectively) play a piece the way it's supposed to be played and takes up limited game space (upgrade slots and how those interact with certain rules) is somehow radically more practical than printing and disseminating a card that is needed to play a piece the way it's supposed to be played.

[Gnomezilla]

5 minutes ago, solkan said:

On the other hand, it costs a lot less to put "This upgrade doesn't count against the crew construction limits, and cannot be removed" on an upgrade card than it does to errata a card.

Whether it's better to blackmail persuade Wyrd into producing an upgrade card with a scarlet "Errata" marked on top of it, I suppose that's a different question. 

Who else but Lucius ought to have an upgrade or an ability actually named Errata? Just imagine the fun* we could have during FAQ discussions!

*disclaimer: fun received may vary in size, color, or quality from fun depicted on the packaging