Trying to wrap my head around Wave 3

[Hagisman]

So I've been looking at Master Queeg and Sanctioned Spellcasters am just not seeing why to use them. I went onto PullMyFinger and a lot of the Wave 3 models are just not in that much play it seems.

I understand that Master Queeg is a bit of a Lucius knock off with his Put the Fear In 'em ability, but aside from that I don't understand what he brings to a crew. Which models benefit from his extra 0 actions? I can see the combo of using "Welcome to Hell, and I am Your Devil" and then walking next to a minion to 0 interact.

Sactioned Spellcasters, I see mainly using in McCabe's or Lucius's crew, but again I don't know how they would work in a crew. If they were Cg 7 I could see pairing them with Mounted Guard for a quick Soulburst bomb, but without that they are late activation models with low ss cost and wound count.

What am I missing?

[Myyrä]

Master Queek can carry Promises and is cheaper than Sidir. If you pair him with some Hounds you can drop a metric fuckton of scheme markers in a single turn, which obviously isn't always useful, but it can be sometimes.

Sanctioned Spellcasters have quite decent damage track and great Ca 6 for a 5ss model. They also have useful triggers with two suits that aren't too commonly needed in Guild. They are minions, so they can benefit from Lady Justice's inspiration and Lucius' and McCabe's tricks. They can be used for dumping useless Henchman and Master AP, which is likely to be useful with Master Queek, Dashel and Lucius at least. They also happen to be a reasonable counter against Belle spam. Long story short: they are cheap and they don't have insanely strong tricks but they do have so many of them that they will likely be able to pull at least some of the off in each game.

[Ludvig]

Guildies were screaming for someone other than Sidir to put promises on - we got Queeg. Guildies were screaming for more/better minions to make Lucius worthwhile - we got minions. Guildies were screaming for Ca actions since we have very few - we got spellcasters.

I think Queeg is supposed to boost Lucius + guardsmen lists. He is odd since almost no guild minions have (0)s and the ones that do are situational (hunters) or immune to horror (guardian). He does have some potential in Neverborn where Lucius can bring him to make Illuminated heal even more (cause they really needed that). In the same wave we did get a couple of minions who have (0)s and you can use him near Dashel since he makes guardsmen focus as a (0). You might also have noted that the mounted guard's (0) don't apply a condition so you can stack it for  defense for everyone near them.

He does have the push trigger on his attack which is good for pushing both friendlies and enemies depending on the situation. I think his abilities help a guardsman-heavy gunline. Getting plusflips for Queeg, Lucius and Dashel also makes them decent, Dashel is weak damage 3, with a potential for weak 5 after all.

If he actually had a model I would include him in a lot of lists for Promises and nudging stuff around. Having a long engagement-range and access to slow makes Exhaust their forces very easy to apply without getting it on yourself in return, exhaust and then slow or push the enemy away so they can't put it on you.

[LunarSol]

Well, at least there's no question about our Emissary or the Mounted Guard.  Greed is also good, or so I hear, though a little tough to make room for.

The other two are a little more situational but the Spellcasters are a solid little minion.  Their anti Lure trick alone gives them a niche that keeps one in the bag.  I haven't given them a fair shake, but they fit in to our nice, utility, Witchling Stalker/Pistolero utility slot with unique utility.

Queeg is a tough one, but he's a pretty cheap henchman, which is something on its own and being able to carry promises is a big deal that makes him a strong consideration with Lady J and McMourning.  He's got a nice engagement range too that gives him some non-obvious denial like the Guardian.  His extra (0) trick is sadly mostly confined to 10T McCabe; though it creates some useful design space for the future.

[Guslado]

2 hours ago, Hagisman said:

 I went onto PullMyFinger and a lot of the Wave 3 models are just not in that much play it seems.

I think the main reason for that right now is that actually models/cards don't exist for them yet. Sure, people can proxy for them and use photocopies of the cards from the Shifting Loyalties books, but I don't tend to see any model on the table too much until it has an official release.

[Gnomezilla]

Have I misread something? I thought that Queeg didn't give out extra (0) actions, but gave out the ability to change the other models' (1) interacts into (0)s. That gives us more overall AP on the minions without native (0)s, which would help counter the "dear gods why am I still so outactivated" problem. Slightly. See also: fun tricks to be had with a 'programmed directive' watcher. (I suppose I should give Seamus' topper back sometime, but the watcher just looks so cute with a top hat!)

 

And Ok, I give up, WHY is he Queek instead of Queeg?

[Hagisman]

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

You might also have noted that the mounted guard's (0) don't apply a condition so you can stack it for  defense for everyone near them.

Are you sure it stacks? It seems like it just gives a flat  From what I can tell.

[Durza]

7 hours ago, Gnomezilla said:

Have I misread something? I thought that Queeg didn't give out extra (0) actions, but gave out the ability to change the other models' (1) interacts into (0)s. That gives us more overall AP on the minions without native (0)s, which would help counter the "dear gods why am I still so outactivated" problem. Slightly. See also: fun tricks to be had with a 'programmed directive' watcher. (I suppose I should give Seamus' topper back sometime, but the watcher just looks so cute with a top hat!)

 

And Ok, I give up, WHY is he Queek instead of Queeg?

Queeg has an ability called Put the fear in 'em, after he completes a walk a friendly minion can take a horror duel, and if it passes it performs a (0) action.

5 hours ago, Hagisman said:

Are you sure it stacks? It seems like it just gives a flat  From what I can tell.

All effect that aren't conditions stack unless they state otherwise, it's on page 63 of the little rulebook.

[Ludvig]

Thank you Durza. Page 53 in the big book has the same box.

[Ludvig]

9 hours ago, Gnomezilla said:

Have I misread something? I thought that Queeg didn't give out extra (0) actions, but gave out the ability to change the other models' (1) interacts into (0)s. That gives us more overall AP on the minions without native (0)s, which would help counter the "dear gods why am I still so outactivated" problem. Slightly. See also: fun tricks to be had with a 'programmed directive' watcher. (I suppose I should give Seamus' topper back sometime, but the watcher just looks so cute with a top hat!)

 

And Ok, I give up, WHY is he Queek instead of Queeg?

Giving others (0) interacts is a good way to get more AP but the problem is that I can rarely see Queeg being near the models I would need to drop extra markers. These days you need to be really far up the board and far away from enemies before you drop markers and Queeg can only do the one walk + that action. Gg 16 also greatly reduced the usefulness of interacts since you can no longer remove exhausted etc. with interacts. You could splurt out markers for your performers/hounds/hidden snipers I guess. Going back to the good old distract + cursed objective pools would also be fun with Lucius and Queeg  

As for the name I haven't got the faintest idea why people get it wrong, there seems to be a few names that just morph for a lot of people. My pet peeve is the extra syllable and english pronounciation of the W that people use in waldgeist making it wall-der-geist. The german pronounciation is more or less vallt-keist / vallt-geist (any actual germans please correct me if I'm wrong!). I just chalk it down to different language backgrounds or making a tiny mistake on the first reading of the word. Once you get going with a tiny misconception like that it's really hard to stop, I have done it myself in both english and swedish (not to mention when trying to pick up pleasantries when vacationing in asia).

[Myyrä]

41 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

As for the name I haven't got the faintest idea why people get it wrong, there seems to be a few names that just morph for a lot of people.

My excuse is that in Finnish language letters g and k are very similar to each other. I'll try to remember it in the future.

[Ludvig]

15 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

My excuse is that in Finnish language letters g and k are very similar to each other. I'll try to remember it in the future.

Awesome, thanks for proving my point.  It's natural for your main language to affect later learned languages. 

I've taken it one step further to calling him master Squeek and imagining him as some weird rat-man with delusions of grandeur. His moustache screams Rattigan from Basil Mouse so the mixup may even be semantic rather than phonologic for a lot of people.

[Mutter]

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

My pet peeve is the extra syllable and english pronounciation of the W that people use in waldgeist making it wall-der-geist. The german pronounciation is more or less vallt-keist / vallt-geist (any actual germans please correct me if I'm wrong!).

Yes, vallt-geist, and to me it almost seems like people are deliberately creative to get both the Waldgeists and the Doppelganger wrong ...

Sometimes people even vary their names within a single paragraph, as if to cover all their bases.

[Ludvig]

11 minutes ago, Mutter said:

Yes, vallt-geist, and to me it almost seems like people are deliberately creative to get both the Waldgeists and the Doppelganger wrong ...

Sometimes people even vary their names within a single paragraph, as if to cover all their bases.

Had no idea people got doppelganger wrong. What is it that's off? That has actually been adapted as a word in english so if it's the change of ä to a it's not really wrong, it's just the english word as oppossed to the german original.

[trikk]

12 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I think Queeg is supposed to boost Lucius + guardsmen lists. He is odd since almost no guild minions have (0)s and the ones that do are situational (hunters) or immune to horror (guardian). He does have some potential in Neverborn where Lucius can bring him to make Illuminated heal even more (cause they really needed that). In the same wave we did get a couple of minions who have (0)s and you can use him near Dashel since he makes guardsmen focus as a (0). You might also have noted that the mounted guard's (0) don't apply a condition so you can stack it for  defense for everyone near them.

Cool ideas:

Pathfinders have a (0) action. So you can summon and push a trap or summon 2 in one turn.

Lawyers can spam HtW

 

Mediocre Ideas:

Dashel and Queeg (0) Interacts and Focus auras.

Mounted Guard

 

Meh ideas

Pistolero De Latigo have Shrug Off for possible 2 conditions

Hunter

[Ludvig]

7 minutes ago, trikk said:

 

Meh ideas

Pistolero De Latigo have Shrug Off for possible 2 conditions

Hunter

The pistoliero's (0) can actually be huge since the biggest drawback of it) is that it does nothing against slow or paralyze. I'd argue that Queeg can offer them a lot if the enemy crew has those kinds of conditions.

[trikk]

I didn`t think of going out of activation ;). But generally (0) out of Paralyze might be a nice trick up their sleeves.

 

As for Queeg and Spellcasters. I believe when they get models and people get really "acknowledge" their existance they will become worthy.

Queeg is something Guild really needed. A 7 SS Henchman with good melee range, some utility and (suprise) a gun. He can also free-push with a nearby Sanctioned Spellcaster (due to Arcane shield)

 

Spellcasters have really good Ca with some nasty triggers (can`t use (0) or Charge) as well as allowing you to make use of other models AP if necessary (I`m looking at you Dashel). If playing vs Ressers the anti-lure field can be quite devastating and since it goes up on a 6 its not that hard to pull off.

 

What I have issues with is getting a grip on Greed (will have her next week, will paint her next year :D)

[lusciousmccabe]

23 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Had no idea people got doppelganger wrong. What is it that's off? That has actually been adapted as a word in english so if it's the change of ä to a it's not really wrong, it's just the english word as oppossed to the german original.

Doppelganger in M2E is spelled Doppleganger for some reason.

 

[Ludvig]

6 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said:

Doppelganger in M2E is spelled Doppleganger for some reason.

 

The reason being the language known as english perhaps? Did they have the ä in older editions? Can't remember.

[lusciousmccabe]

They had the l and the e the right way around. 

[Hagisman]

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

The reason being the language known as english perhaps? Did they have the ä in older editions? Can't remember.

The more pop culture that gets carried over from other countries and cultures, the more I am confused by English spelling of foreign words. From an English perspective there is no difference between L and R in the Japanese language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_of_English_/r/_and_/l/_by_Japanese_speakers

And in Germany W has a V sound. There are also a lot similar cases with the Russian language, but I can't remember off hand.

Linguistical patterns are interesting, but also I need to remind myself this is a Malifaux forum sometimes.

[trikk]

3 minutes ago, Hagisman said:

And in Germany W has a V sound. There are also a lot similar cases with the Russian language, but I can't remember off hand.

 

In Polish W is pronounced like the english "V".

The English W has its own letter "ł"

Yes, we are totally messed up for foreigners

[Ludvig]

2 minutes ago, Hagisman said:

The more pop culture that gets carried over from other countries and cultures, the more I am confused by English spelling of foreign words. From an English perspective there is no difference between L and R in the Japanese language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_of_English_/r/_and_/l/_by_Japanese_speakers

And in Germany W has a V sound. There are also a lot similar cases with the Russian language, but I can't remember off hand.

Linguistical patterns are interesting, but also I need to remind myself this is a Malifaux forum sometimes.

Linguistics are never off topic! 

Considering how far english pronounciation already is from spelling you might as well keep original spelling from other languages or just make letter up at random  . I think it's fairly common to keep spelling on loan-words.

[Ludvig]

2 minutes ago, trikk said:

In Polish W is pronounced like the english "V".

The English W has its own letter "ł"

Yes, we are totally messed up for foreigners

How transparent are you in the link between spelling and sound? I can get behind any weird spelling if it's more or less consistent in it's use. Unfortunately most languages aren't.

[trikk]

You as in polish? Well, the thing is you don`t have to look more than 1 letter forward to be able to read a word.

The issues are with pronouncation of the words. 

 

There`s also some issues as we have different ways of writing the same sounds. So "rz" and "ż" are the same sound and nobody really knows the difference where to put what (there`s no real if then, just memorizing this word is with "rz" and this word is "ż")