Dear Wyrd

[Sordid Strumpet]

unless you use your models as coat hangers, load bearing joints or tooth cleaning implements, the slightly weaker bond or increased brittleness will have no negative ramifications whatsoever.

I disagree that the use of plastic cement is the main advantage of working with plastic. The rapid setting of super glue really lends itself to mitigating the fiddlyness of the models. So much so in fact, that like I've said before, it ceases to be an issue if your hands are reasonably steady and you have an emergency pair of forcebs. 

[Math Mathonwy]

48 minutes ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

unless you use your models as coat hangers, load bearing joints or tooth cleaning implements, the slightly weaker bond or increased brittleness will have no negative ramifications whatsoever.

I disagree that the use of plastic cement is the main advantage of working with plastic. The rapid setting of super glue really lends itself to mitigating the fiddlyness of the models. So much so in fact, that like I've said before, it ceases to be an issue if your hands are reasonably steady and you have an emergency pair of forcebs. 

How is a faster setting time an asset? With plastic glue it still sticks the parts together so if you don't want to fiddle with them, you just let go and it sticks there. But with the fiddly models I often find a need to adjust parts ever so slightly and that's a lot easier with plastic glue than super glue. Have you used plastic glue extensively? I have built a few thousand metal minis and maybe a thousand plastic minis and I vastly prefer plastic glue.

[Sordid Strumpet]

I have similarly built quite a few thousand models in my time and vastly prefer super glue. All down to personal preference I guess. If one method doesn't work, maybe the other will. I find I have more than enough time adjusting pieces before the glue sets, but I can also keep working on the model wothout having to wait for too long.

In my old GW days I used plastic glue, lots of it, and it works very nicely. I just personally prefer super glue. Not least because the smell is way easier to control.

[Math Mathonwy]

50 minutes ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

I have similarly built quite a few thousand models in my time and vastly prefer super glue. All down to personal preference I guess. If one method doesn't work, maybe the other will. I find I have more than enough time adjusting pieces before the glue sets, but I can also keep working on the model wothout having to wait for too long.

In my old GW days I used plastic glue, lots of it, and it works very nicely. I just personally prefer super glue. Not least because the smell is way easier to control.

Fair enough, then.

And now I actually get your point about drying times - I never found it frustrating that it takes a minute or so for the plastic glue to properly bond but I can see that if you were trying to build something fast and things kept breaking off you'd get agitated.

Out of interest, do you prefer super glue also when you need to glue several pieces at once (like two arms holding a weapon)? Because that's the place where I find plastic glue really shines.

[Palooka]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

How is a faster setting time an asset? With plastic glue it still sticks the parts together so if you don't want to fiddle with them, you just let go and it sticks there. But with the fiddly models I often find a need to adjust parts ever so slightly and that's a lot easier with plastic glue than super glue. Have you used plastic glue extensively? I have built a few thousand metal minis and maybe a thousand plastic minis and I vastly prefer plastic glue.

Agreed.  I love the way that you can correct joints with a bit of extra glue, etc.

[mythicFOX]

One key thing to remember is not all superglue is created equal. I swear by Loctite's PowerFlex, it's a gel (so is easier to apply) with rubber in the formula to make the joint slightly flexible. In practice this still makes for a solid join that's more shock resistant than a normal superglue.  I noticed a significant reduction breakages when I switched to this over other brands.

That said I do use Plastic Cement for most of the joins on my Malifaux models, for the reasons others have given.  I still use the Superglue (and a pin) to attach the model to it's base though, as I paint base and model separately and attach them before I varnish.

Regardless of what I'm assembling I find it important to score each side of the join before gluing.

[Sordid Strumpet]

9 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Fair enough, then.

And now I actually get your point about drying times - I never found it frustrating that it takes a minute or so for the plastic glue to properly bond but I can see that if you were trying to build something fast and things kept breaking off you'd get agitated.

Out of interest, do you prefer super glue also when you need to glue several pieces at once (like two arms holding a weapon)? Because that's the place where I find plastic glue really shines.

For me, putting together several pieces at once is where super glue saves me pulling my hair out I remember the old GW days where I tried endlessly gluing together a guy holding a gun with two arms, and it just kept falling apart. I dry fit the parts, and then stick them together with super glue so I only have to hold them correctly for half a minute and they're set.

The other thing I like about super glue is that if I do stuff up, the bond isn't fully cured straight away. I can pretty easily snap off the piece and clean it with minimal effort before trying again. Only after an hour or so is everything really set.

[Bengt]

What kind of super glue takes 30 s to set? The only types I've tried have set in a few seconds when they are new and a little longer when they are older and thicker. Also if you move the pieces at all after the first touch the joint tend to be a lot weaker.

[Sordid Strumpet]

Depends on the humidity where you live. Where I live it's quite dry, so super glue naturally takes longer to set. I've never seen super glue set in less than ten seconds though unless you're using an activator spray of some description. I use loctite gel control.

Gel glue adds further control to that. If you keep wriggling the joint, sure it'll be weaker. Like I said, I don't have any trouble.

[Dirial]

1 hour ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

Depends on the humidity where you live. Where I live it's quite dry, so super glue naturally takes longer to set. I've never seen super glue set in less than ten seconds though unless you're using an activator spray of some description. I use loctite gel control.

One can also use wood glue on the part opposing the super glue. Bonds faster, and builds a very strong bond.

[Mutter]

2 hours ago, Dirial said:

One can also use wood glue on the part opposing the super glue. Bonds faster, and builds a very strong bond.

Didn't know that, will give it a try.

I used styrofoam (the one with bubbles) to a similar effect, but wood glue probably sets faster because of the moisture.

[dropdeadcriminal]

I vote for the plastic glue side. It may take a few seconds longer to set, but it is immediately tacky so when you are trying to fix that sword that split in 2 when you were trying to remove it from the sprew it is much easier with plastic glue.

I also instituted a rule about the connection tubes/wires that are their own pieces. If it does not come off the sprew without breaking then it does not get attached to the model. If the most sturdy plastic in the piece is the connection to the sprew then there is an issue. 

[nunorod]

Honestly. It's not hard to see that Wyrd could have presented us with two choices. Really static miniatures, easy assembly, or dynamic ones, hard assembly.  I for one prefer the dynamic ones. It's obvious, and I have read through this forum, the reasons for these hard miniatures. There is a process involved, mold injections, etc, etc, etc, I probably, for us to have really dynamic and proportionate figures some compromises have to be made.

For those who assembled other miniatures, models,  played Flames of War, etc, the difficulties are just the bread and butter and honestly, while I don't own a great collection, there wasn't a single miniature where I thought really that hard to assemble.

I rather have these awesome miniatures then out of proportion Space marines.

Keep doing the good work Wyrd

[Omenbringer]

23 hours ago, nunorod said:

Honestly. It's not hard to see that Wyrd could have presented us with two choices. Really static miniatures, easy assembly, or dynamic ones, hard assembly...There is a process involved, mold injections, etc, etc, etc, I probably, for us to have really dynamic and proportionate figures some compromises have to be made.

I dont agree that the choices are quite so stark. There can be a middle ground where the models can be easily assembled and also quite dynamic. The Alkemy miniatures come to mind in this regard. One of the issues that I see is Wyrd has made the choice to really push the dynamism of some of their models to a level that makes molding much more difficult. Look for example at Misaki or the Coryphee or the Dark Carnival edition of the Coryphee. Though these are beautiful and very dynamic models, functionally they are incredibly difficult to put together and delicate to transport. A lesser example would be Ototo, who is also posed very dynamically but is an odd piece to play around because of this choice.

Dynamism is great but these are pieces intended to be played with and transported, some form has to give way to function.

The choice to realistically proportion the models (omitting a discussion about the inconsistencies of this within the range) is another issue unto itself. It is exacerbated by the choices made in connection locations. When you are going for realistic proportions the wrists, ankles and neck make for very delicate connections due to the lack of real estate to glue. Plastic glue can only do so much to strengthen these minute joins. Also consider that these realistically proportioned areas are also extremely difficult to reinforce with pinning because of the lack of available real estate (many pins are as thick as the areas they would be pinning). The increasingly popular one foot connection to the base is another issue exacerbated by the choice to realistically proportioned models.

If these were strictly competition show pieces then all these things would be great, however these are pieces intended to be handled and moved about while playing the game, so are much less desirable traits.

I for one would prefer the pieces be dialed back a bit in terms of both realistic proportions and dynamism in favor of increased functionality during play and assembly. As has been stated many times, model assembly should not be a barrier to entry for new players.

[ShadowAngel]

I started minis with malifaux. Have 8 crews now plus extra models. Never had anything more than minor frustration putting something together. Long as you take your time and look at pictures and how everything goes together, it's pretty simple.

[Sordid Strumpet]

@Omenbringer don't agree at all. I'm sure Wyrd don't go out of their way to add extra pieces just to piss of their customers. So that means for what we get, the ratio between quality and the number of pieces and price is as good as they can make it. I don't really fancy paying more for the models, and I really don't want the models to become more chunky or less dynamic, so Personally I think the best option is to let wyrd slowly improve the model and molds so we can get the best of both worlds. If in doubt, I prefer better models.

I also have minimal trouble transporting my models, all it takes is cutting your foam in a way that supports the models and doesn't put pressure on them in a bad direction.

I have paid a grand total of $30 for my model transport method, and half an hour of cutting the foam together the way I want it. It isn't difficult at all.

[Omenbringer]

21 hours ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

I think the best option is to let wyrd slowly improve the model and molds so we can get the best of both worlds. If in doubt, I prefer better models.

I also have minimal trouble transporting my models, all it takes is cutting your foam in a way that supports the models and doesn't put pressure on them in a bad direction.

I have paid a grand total of $30 for my model transport method, and half an hour of cutting the foam together the way I want it. It isn't difficult at all.

You like the models as is, fine, but that doesn't mean that those of us that would like to see some improvement are any less justified on our opinions. My question is how long would you suggest the company be given a mulligan for? They have made plastics for more than a bit now and the kits are still often just as fiddly and delicate as some of the earlier ones. This is not a new complaint or even an infrequent one, it also isn't restricted to just a handful of first production run crew boxes (Yan Lo, Misaki, etc).

Glad you have had minimal trouble transporting your models, that also doesn't in any way mean that others do not. I also carefully cut my foam, trying to insure that they dont catch on any thing or have "pressure on them in bad directions," doesn't really help when the models are attached via only one small foot and posed over dynamically. Just moving models from the house to the car in their foam protection is likely to see the outstretched arms and weapons catching on the sides and breaking off. Probably the best solution is the magnetic transport options, though even here those single small points of contact between model and base are likely to be an issue during removal from the tray to play.

I dont believe anyone in the thread is asking for models that are statically posed at attention like a soldier standing for an inspection, but we are asking for more consideration in terms of how these models are actually going to be assembled (whole arms instead of upper arm and separate hand holding weapon that attaches at the wrist) and used during games (models that overhang their bases quite a bit or have small single points of connection).

Being a fan of the company doesn't mean you cant see issues or recommend improvements, it means you let them know of issues (real or perceived) and recommend improvements.

[LordZombie]

Omenbringer, you are my hero.  

[Sordid Strumpet]

I never said your opinion isn't valid, but there is a corollary to what you said - which is that mine is also valid. Some say one thing, some the other. The nature of the internet is that many people go on there to complain, and far fewer talk about positive experiences. Wyrd is growing, so they're doing something right.

Like I said, I highly doubt they purposely annoy people with small pieces, which means that the model design is a consequence of the tradeoff that exists between the number of pieces you need and the detail of the model. Wyrd very clearly values the latter more highly than the former because with the starter box they've shown they can make simple models just fine if they want to.

And where did I ever say that the fiddly nature of the models SHOULD'T be improved, or that it isn't an issue? all I've said is that I don't want those "improvements" to come at the cost of a reduction in model quality, detail or pose, and that I don't mind the assembly at all (and I say that having assembled quite a few of the early gremlin things).

My models only break when I've stored them badly. I'm not saying you are storing your models badly. I'm saying that the only time my models broke was when I was lazy packing them or crammed too much in one case. So I've not found it to be much of an issue. Again, not implying anything about you or anyone else here, this is just my experience.

I hope you can see that my point is as valid as yours, and why I prefer getting the current models over getting sturdier models. I pay a premium for the models, they may as well look as nice as possible. I won't complain if they go the other way and I'll still keep buying, but I want the current quality more. Wyrd will do what they think is best, and as the ones who known their sales figures and considering they would probably prefer to stay in business, I think the decision won't be made willy-nilly.

[Omenbringer]

2 hours ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

I hope you can see that my point is as valid as yours, and why I prefer getting the current models over getting sturdier models. I pay a premium for the models, they may as well look as nice as possible. I won't complain if they go the other way and I'll still keep buying, but I want the current quality more. Wyrd will do what they think is best, and as the ones who known their sales figures and considering they would probably prefer to stay in business, I think the decision won't be made willy-nilly.

Tone and intent are always difficult to judge online, no worries man, I value opposing opinions and honestly think they are great for the company.

I do however think the compromise is fairly obvious and already being done somewhat. Think of how Games Workshop does their advanced models via Forge World. Let the Nightmare editions be the show piece models that should be expected to require advanced skills and difficult assembly (Dark Carnival Coryphee). Allow the regular models to be more intuitive in assembly and somewhat less dynamic in order to keep them from being a barrier to entry. New players face enough challenges learning the nuances of the game, without adding assembly to the frustrations.

I think that if Malifaux is to continue to grow, it will have to become less of the connoisseurs game that it sort of is currently (think of how the game was last edition). Reducing the complexity of the "basic" models assembly is probably a good step toward continuing that. Plastic models dont have to be complicated and spindly to look good, they just have to be thought about differently during the creative processes.

[solkan]

"Let them play Guild." - Marie Antoinette, upon hearing of the difficult to assemble models.

 

[Sordid Strumpet]

1 hour ago, Omenbringer said:

Tone and intent are always difficult to judge online, no worries man, I value opposing opinions and honestly think they are great for the company.

I do however think the compromise is fairly obvious and already being done somewhat. Think of how Games Workshop does their advanced models via Forge World. Let the Nightmare editions be the show piece models that should be expected to require advanced skills and difficult assembly (Dark Carnival Coryphee). Allow the regular models to be more intuitive in assembly and somewhat less dynamic in order to keep them from being a barrier to entry. New players face enough challenges learning the nuances of the game, without adding assembly to the frustrations.

I think that if Malifaux is to continue to grow, it will have to become less of the connoisseurs game that it sort of is currently (think of how the game was last edition). Reducing the complexity of the "basic" models assembly is probably a good step toward continuing that. Plastic models dont have to be complicated and spindly to look good, they just have to be thought about differently during the creative processes.

The technology exists as shown by forge world, but to be fair the best forge world models are basically Wyrd average. It seems like it may be too expensive for Wyrd, especially with their choice of going for plastic (corvus belli can achieve tremendous detail and very easy to assemble models, but in metal). The question is what Wyrd want, really - whether the models or the fluff/theme or the gameplay me hanics attract more players. I have no idea to be honest, it seems to me that it's mostly the incredible rules (writing and balance) and the theme. And ability names.

[Rathnard]

On 2/9/2016 at 6:42 AM, CrazyCanuck said:

I am sorry but I am calling you a liar.... I have used the instructions I honestly believe puzzles to get into the ninth level of hell are easier than these models.. I am sure they will look great if I ever attempt them again but they are the spawn of satan on a bad day..

Now I'm just tempted to accept the challenge and assemble an Insidious Madness Kit without instructions.

[Carter]

I've pre-ordered these just based on the pictures looking so cool, I am a little nervous now as assembly is my least favourite "part" of the hobby. That said I love how dynamic and interesting the wyrd line of models are and am willing to take a few hours and lose a little sanity to have them finished, I've always generally used plastic glue for everything plastic but I think I might experiment a bit more now having read through all this thread.

Does anyone have a good solution for filling gaps? I heard milliput a little watered down makes a great filler for the little gaps here and there? I've used Games Workshop Green stuff but I'm starting to dislike it as a medium to work with.

[Sordid Strumpet]

Have you tried liquid green stuff (also by GW, incidentally) - I've heard great things about its ability to fill gaps. Never tried myself though, green stuff is annoying but I get bucketloads of it for a few dollars and I use it to make bases, so I figure I might as well use it to fill gaps.