Would love some perspectives. Thnx

[CloudFang]

Ok, this is a 1st edition to M2e post.  Apologies if this info exists elsewhere I have tried to search and all I find is the specific rules that changed.  I.e. 35 went to 50 ss for game size.  Models now have upgrades , etc.

My questions are about the integrity and overall feel of the game and how it has changed?

Played quite a bit of the original malifaux and LOVED the game.  Hands down everything about it I liked.  Small model count, intricate interactions, alternating turns, several options for winning.

Long story short my game group drama bombed out of existence at the same time the rules were shifting.  I tried to keep up but all the negative vibes on the forums and doom made me just stop being interested in following the development of the game.  Now that it's finally finished and released I was hoping to get some feedback on:

Is the game still awesome?  

What are the biggest shifts in gameplay? Not rules but how the overall game feels?

Is it still as intricate? synergies?

Is the game growing?

What about the community? It seemed pretty rocky last time I checked?

hows tournament play?

im very much thinking about getting back into it and would love some honest thoughts!  Thanks everyone!

 

-earl-

 

 

[Lucidicide]

I'll answer!

1. Yes. I mean, there are people you can find that prefer one edition over the other, but the game is certainly more widely played now (which implies it's still awesome).
2. The lack of the ability to use Soulstones to get an extra card flip means that Masters don't feel as dominant -- they can't just auto-win duels anymore. This can create a fairly significant change. The other thing that MAY be big for you, depending what you play, is that now that you can use Soulstones to get suits, some triggers/summoning is much more reliable. The last thing that comes up is that people are usually playing a shared strategy (instead of the individual strategies).
3. As intricate? Probably not. The rules are definitely more streamlined, which means that some of that complexity is gone. There's still a lot of interactions, but there are fewer cornercase abilities. Personally, I feel this makes the game better -- you're more likely to actually know all the capabilities -- but some people like it the other way. YMMV
4. Yes, absolutely. Obviously individual groups fluctuate, but there are more players than ever.
5. It depends who you ask. I've been a part of the community since early 2010, and there are always unhappy people. Generally, the community is positive and helpful. Some parts of it are not. It's nothing like it was during the switch to M2E, though. That's to be expected.
6. I don't really get involved in tournament play, but I will say that a lot of people have been excited about the new schemes (though if you haven't played up until now, I don't imagine that will be exciting for you)

 

That's my view on it, but other people I'm sure will differ in places.

[Adran]

The game size change, means that you play about the same number of models in a 50ss crew in M2E as you would in a 35ss crew in M1. 

The time to play is also similar. The general feel to the game is pretty much the same to me. With most masters still feeling like the original master.  There is more pressure on your crew to score the VP early than there used to be, as many things are scored each turn, rather than at the end of the game. (And the new gaining grounds schemes put even more of that pressure on). If you typically played shared strategies in the old rules then that is now the norm, but there are plenty of story encounters that set asymmetric goals. 

Whilst they have reduced the complexity of a models card, the game it self is still pretty complex and relies on model interactions in a  similar way. 

So from what you say you like about 1st edition, could be used to describe M2E. 

 

I think the community is growing at a fairly large rate. Certainly here in the UK any metric you choose has it going up in size. Our average events seem to be attracting twice as many people as they used to 3 years ago, and there are at least twice as many of them. Any time I go to a UK tournement its a nice day with like minded people. There isn't an overtly win at all costs view to the gameplay here, and I can chat with my opponents fairly well, even if I haven't meet the before. It generally works well as a tournement setting, 

 

 

 

 

[CloudFang]

Wow you guys are great!  Answers already.?

 

Have there been been a lot of new crews released?

Do the factions generally have the same gameplay as they used to?  Are they still very different from one another?

what ended up happening with avatars?

[Fetid Strumpet]

16 minutes ago, CloudFang said:

Ok, this is a 1st edition to M2e post.  Apologies if this info exists elsewhere I have tried to search and all I find is the specific rules that changed.  I.e. 35 went to 50 ss for game size.  Models now have upgrades , etc.

My questions are about the integrity and overall feel of the game and how it has changed?

Played quite a bit of the original malifaux and LOVED the game.  Hands down everything about it I liked.  Small model count, intricate interactions, alternating turns, several options for winning.

Long story short my game group drama bombed out of existence at the same time the rules were shifting.  I tried to keep up but all the negative vibes on the forums and doom made me just stop being interested in following the development of the game.  Now that it's finally finished and released I was hoping to get some feedback on:

Is the game still awesome?  

What are the biggest shifts in gameplay? Not rules but how the overall game feels?

Is it still as intricate? synergies?

Is the game growing?

What about the community? It seemed pretty rocky last time I checked?

hows tournament play?

im very much thinking about getting back into it and would love some honest thoughts!  Thanks everyone!

 

-earl-

 

 

Apologies for brevity but trying to get to work but saw this and thought I'd try to answer some of these. 

Yes the game is still awesome.

For me, there are sort of two big shifts in how gameplay feels. In 1.5, in general, killiness on a model trumped all. I remember repeatedly trying to use abilities like bête and Seamus's excessive bleeding abilities or other abilities that didn't let you count for scoring for the rest of re game and in general it didn't matter. While killing often didn't matter to actually scoring the game, it generally seeme to me that the general basics of the game involved wiping out the opposing crew in a turn to three and then using the last three turns to get your points once you had no opposition. The isn't the case any more.

killing models is still important, but model's that can't kill are as important to your crew as other roles. Scheme runners and support models really expanded their importance. 

Hyper moving crews like the old dreamer, Colette, and Kirai have been toned down significantly, and while very fast moving abilities still exist but they are better spread out and crew wide have been toned down.

there is also MUCH less ap available. In 1.5 at a certain point level if you didn't have an extra so like nimble or melee expert, you were never going to be hired. That's not the case any longer. Extra ap are the exception, not the rule. And models with extra so so are much better, in general, balanced with their cost and stats that it isn't always just a no brainer choice to bring them.

final big shift in feeling, Masters. Masters still feel powerful and are the most powerful members of the team, but they aren't the swingy models from 1.5, and a lot of that comes from the changes to the SS rules. SS are still very important to the game and a master, but no where near the extent of last edition. You can no longer spend a stone to add the flip to your result. This is so important because last edition as were so important that if you had a low SS pool your crew construction suffered because you NEEDED the full pool, and matches often descended into whose master could burn out the other's pool first so they could kill the opposing master first, then kill the rest of the crew. Now while they are very important, masters can come into the game without a full pool and still do well. So the focus of the game has shifted from superstars and elite crews of Killy models, to actually needing to use the whole crew, and requiring more than just killing to be represented in the crew.

The game is still very intricate, and there are many synergies.

I don't have the numbers to answer whether it is growing, and I moved to an area with no game store and few local players. But anecdotally I believe from comments I've seen it seems to be growing.

Tournament play seems very good. The developers rerelease the tournament document each year and each year so far major changes occur for giving players more options. Last year they released new strats for everyone to play with, this year they updated all the schemes. So it looks like the tournament scene will constantly be refreshed.

[BigHammer]

22 minutes ago, CloudFang said:

Wow you guys are great!  Answers already.?

 

Have there been been a lot of new crews released?

Do the factions generally have the same gameplay as they used to?  Are they still very different from one another?

what ended up happening with avatars?

There are now seven masters available for each faction, with some crossover due to some being dual-faction, and with seven factions there is plenty to choose from.

I can't comment on how they play now compared to how they used to, but they are still very distinct; even the Ten Thunders, whose masters are nearly all dual-faction and who can infiltrate (steal) models from other factions, have their own unique playstyle compared to the factions that they infiltrate.

Two things have happened with Avatars;

Firstly, the Shifting Loyalties book has rules for playing campaigns, in which your master can gain access to the Avatar upgrades - these are similar in concept to the Avatars as they were, an upgraded and tremendously powerful version of themselves that can be manifested during a game. They are not available in standard play, however.

Secondly, the same book has rules for the Emissaries of Fate, large centrepiece models that can be tailored, with free upgrades, to suit the master that hires them. The old Avatar models are considered legal proxy models for these Emissaries, so they are the spiritual successors to the Avatars of the old game, in a way, though they do play differently than an Avatar would, of course. These are available for standard play.

[Bengt]

There are some new Masters, mostly gremlins (since they are supposedly a faction now): Ironsides (A), Ulix, Mah Tucket, Wong, Brewmaster, Tara (O/R), Shenlong (TT). And some other models were made Masters (mostly old Henchmen): Kaeris, Ophelia, Lucius, Collodi, Von Schill, Molly, Jack Daw. A whole bunch of other models were made henchmen in turn, that can lead in small games.

I don't think anyone mentioned that you now randomise a pool of five schemes to chose from instead of selecting whichever one you want.

[CloudFang]

Hmm.  Really like the idea that most all models are a lot more viable and masters are less critical in terms of power.  Has everyone else found this to be true?  It's so boring seeing the same squad compositions over and over.  Does M2e allow for a myriad of viable options?  I definitely like the sound of that.

 

thanks Fetid.

 

Thanks big for the avatar update and thanks to everyone who keeps adding in here.

[LeperColony]

14 minutes ago, CloudFang said:

Hmm.  Really like the idea that most all models are a lot more viable and masters are less critical in terms of power.  Has everyone else found this to be true?  It's so boring seeing the same squad compositions over and over.  Does M2e allow for a myriad of viable options?  I definitely like the sound of that.

 

thanks Fetid.

 

Thanks big for the avatar update and thanks to everyone who keeps adding in here.

I never played 1E, so I can't compare the game now to how it was back then.  That being said, the current system does allow for a lot of options.  Malifaux is one of the better balanced miniature systems out there, and most masters support more than one, if not several, play styles.

You will find on these forums some people who advance the idea that everything is equal and there are no OP units or superior masters.  In my opinion these people are wrong.  However, that does not detract from the overall strong state of the current game.

[Soul Puppet]

I did play 1st Ed and loved it. That said, I feel that M2E is altogether a much better animal and agree with most of the points already made. Balance being a key part of this.

 

As far as LeperColony's comment on OP units or superior masters go, I would say that there are certainly some very strong options for both of these but the key thing is now that the power curve is a much gentler slope than it was in 1st Ed days. There is no longer a single model, master or otherwise, that I would hate to see across the table from me.

[CloudFang]

I think we all know that true balance is unattainable but to hear that it's very close is great.

 

any other conceptual shifts people can point out?

 

what about terrain and special terrain?  Still important?  I used to love going in and out of buildings and the like.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The LoS rules, and models on height and vantage points are arguably the most clunky part of the system. The rules work, but they aren't especially intuitive, and many people I know simplify those rules for themselves

 Special Terrain still has a place, and there are models which generate hazardous terrain auras around themselves. There are also now much better dedicated sniper models available to the factions (Nino, Katanaka Snipers, Freikorps trappers, Hans, McTavish, etc...) which really benefit from elevated terrain. The balance being there are many forced movement effects in the game like Pushes and Lures which can drag you off high places for a lot of damage if the height is high enough. So if you go high to shoot enemy models you need to be careful they don't "induce" your sniper to fling themselves into the void.

I've personally found the most enjoyable games utilize multi-level buildings with balconies and the like, but that is personal preference, not an indication the game plays better or worse with them.

[CloudFang]

So I guess the next question is what do I need to get?

 

i know I have plenty of models and I dug through and found the M2e A5 sized manual and Arsenal wave 1 deck for rezzerz and mercenaries.  Don't even remember getting those really.

what else do I need?  Wave 2 ?  Wave 3 decks?  I see m2e has 3 books?  There's also a scene deck and general upgrade decks for books 2 & 3?

 

little lost.  All necessary?

 

[BigHammer]

The arsenal decks are being phased out as of Wave 3. The cards needed for models come with the models, which was causing most people who owned the arsenal decks to end up with two of everything, except the general upgrades, which were only available in the wave 1 & 2 arsenal decks. Wave 3 has had no arsenal deck release. To avoid this problem for newer players, the General Upgrade deck contains all of the upgrade cards from every faction that are not included in the boxes, so that buying one of those and then buying the models in their boxes will give you all the character and upgrade cards you ever need.

Each wave of models and upgrades is also covered in their respective books (Malifaux 2E = 1st wave, Crossroads = 2nd wave, Shifting Loyalties = 3rd wave).

As for what is already out, you can check the store page and the Upcoming page to see what is out and what is coming soon. The majority of wave 1 and 2 models are out or arriving shortly, and although a few wave 3 models are on release (in the Starter set and the Crossroads Seven box), most (such as the Emissaries) are still to come. Wyrd have already posted saying that they are all sculpted already, though, and that they'll be coming sooner rather than later.

The Wave 4 playtesting will begin in a little while, so there's more coming as well.

As for things you need;

I personally carry around the A5 rules manual, the cards and models I need to play, the schemes and strategies deck (to which I have added GG16's new schemes), measuring devices, a fate deck, some soulstone tokens, scheme/corpse/scrap/condition markers, a dry-wipe pen and a ballpoint pen.

I also own copies of each main book, for reference, but this isn't necessary unless you want to read about everything - which you might, of course.

You can get around bits of that (like the tokens and the schemes/strat deck) with the rules manual and a notebook, or something similar.

[CloudFang]

Thanks! Was a bit confusing.  Seems the wave 2 Arsenal boxes are still available.  So I think I have this right, I can get that and then the shifting campaign deck and be caught up?

i only have rezzer models so I don't need the generalist deck if I get wave 2 Arsenal right? 

Then at least I'm caught up and the rest I can buy when I can afford the fluff.?

Not terrible I guess.

[hippodruid]

The Scheme and Strategy deck is a good buy.  It has all the schemes and strategies from the original book, including a few multiplayer strategies and story encounters.

What arsenal decks you will need depends on your collection.  If you mostly have models from the very first Malifaux book, you'll only need the Wave 1 decks for your factions to keep using those models.  Models from Rising Powers and Twisting Fates will usually be in Wave 2 (some Gremlins are in Wave 1).  Storm of Shadows is split between Wave 1 and 2, although if you're only looking for the Resser stuff from Storm (Izamu, Chiaki, Toshiro, Yin, Yan Lo, and Ashigaru), it's in the Ten Thunders Wave 2 Arsenal deck.

You will need 30mm bases to use as a variety of markers (scheme, corpse, scrap, claim, turf war, etc.), so having some different colored or visually distinct ones are good.

[Artiee]

The Shifting Loyalties Campaign deck is just the upgrades to be used in the Campaigns.  It also has the Avatar upgrades that also campaign only.  It isn't needed unless your are going to do campaigns or you are a collector.

[BigHammer]

You only need the campaign deck for specifically playing in a campaign, so unless you plan to I wouldn't recommend it. It only contains campaign-specific upgrades, etc, no models of any kind.

But yes, a Wave 2 Ressers Deck will stop you from needing the General Upgrade deck if you already have wave 1 for it. Yan Lo and the Ancestors are in the Wave 2 Thunders deck, but you get their cards, upgrades and all, in the models' boxes, so if you want to play those you can just pick up the models themselves and avoid the 10T decks entirely.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Additionally, there is a print on Demand card service provided by Wargames vault. If you need a few TT/resser cards like Yan Lo or the ancestors, or if you have proxies you want to build but want the cards you can get them on an individual basis (with a $5.00 minimum order I believe) from them as needed.

[Astrella]

If you care about the fluff I'd just get the books, I the fluff in Crossroads and Shifting Loyalties very good myself, and shifting loyalties also has the Campaign rules and avatar upgrades (which are technically only in the Campaign, but you can easily use them in friendly games as well).

[Justin]

It seems most of these have been answered, but I'll chime in.

Assuming you have models, all you need are stat cards for the models you will be using, and the rules.

The wave 1 arsenal deck contains stat cards for all models in the M2E core book.

The wave 2 arsenal deck contains stat cards for all models in Crossroads (the second M2E book)

There is no wave 3 arsenal deck. Because models always come with their stat cards, and none of the wave 3 models were released during first edition, there was no need for one (arsenal decks basically existed to help old players who already had the models)

So, if you get the wave 1 and 2 arsenal decks for your faction and a rulebook, you're set.

As has been mentioned, we partner with a print on demand service, which you can find here: https://www.wargamevault.com/browse/pub/5162/Wyrd-Miniatures?site=wgv

Here is a link to the M2E core book which has all the rules, some stories, and some model rules: http://giveusyourmoneypleasethankyou-wyrd.com/products/wyr20001

Here is the rules manual (just the rules, no story or model stats) http://giveusyourmoneypleasethankyou-wyrd.com/products/wyr20009

And although it's not at all necessary, I would highly recommend the starter to anyone starting Malifaux or growing a community. It contains two crews designed to face each other and teaches you to play with a series of starter games. Fate decks and tape measure also included http://giveusyourmoneypleasethankyou-wyrd.com/products/m2e-starter-box

[D_acolyte]

On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 7:47 AM, CloudFang said:

Is the game still awesome?  

What are the biggest shifts in gameplay? Not rules but how the overall game feels?

Is it still as intricate? synergies?

Is the game growing?

What about the community? It seemed pretty rocky last time I checked?

hows tournament play?

im very much thinking about getting back into it and would love some honest thoughts!  Thanks everyone!

 

-earl-

 

 

Yes it is still awesome.

Biggest shift, I do not feel depressed when I see a Neverborn player or dirty when I play Neverborn.

I think the game is growing.

Tournament play is fun but a little of dice roll on standings, I saw the best player I know come in outside of the top 4 in the last tournament and a rooky come in in the top 3. I particularly do not feel that is a negative.

[Omenbringer]

Agree with much of what has been said. It is a different game than it was, but still enjoyable. I much prefer the story encounters and their asymmetry, to the standard encounters symmetry. If you really enjoyed that portion from first edition, then I wouldn't suggest playing a lot of standard encounters with the restricted scheme pools and symmetric Strategies. My only additional comment in regards to strats and schemes is there is quite a bit more center weighting (or near center) to them in this edition. Deep incursions into your opponents deployment zone (or truthfully even shallow ones up to it) are not very common requirements.

On 2/8/2016 at 10:56 AM, Fetid Strumpet said:

The LoS rules, and models on height and vantage points are arguably the most clunky part of the system. The rules work, but they aren't especially intuitive, and many people I know simplify those rules for themselves

I've personally found the most enjoyable games utilize multi-level buildings with balconies and the like, but that is personal preference, not an indication the game plays better or worse with them.

I can not agree with this more, though am much less optimistic about the rules "working" than Fetid. Elevation in particular is probably best to be avoided as the system doesn't really support it well at all (somewhat of a design intent).

6 hours ago, CloudFang said:

So I guess the next question is what do I need to get?

i know I have plenty of models and I dug through and found the M2e A5 sized manual and Arsenal wave 1 deck for rezzerz and mercenaries.  Don't even remember getting those really.

what else do I need?  Wave 2 ?  Wave 3 decks?  I see m2e has 3 books?  There's also a scene deck and general upgrade decks for books 2 & 3?

little lost.  All necessary?

 

Since you are coming from 1st ed and likely have an existing supply of metal models to play with, you might want to be aware that several models for the old metal crews (and models that received a promotion in this edition) are unavailable outside of the new plastic crew boxes. While unfortunate and often lamented (a new thread seems to pop up every two months or so), it can make edition transitioning players (and local game stores with stock of metal models) irritated. Unfortunately there aren't a lot of options in regards to acquiring these models, as there are a lot of people looking (high demand) for the exact same models and very little supply, so prices are usually high when you can find them at all (Economics at work).

[CloudFang]

Mainly was most interested in the conceptual changes.  I got a little off target with trying to figure out what I needed.  But seems most everything is still awesome!  

I have all the old metals.  Maybe lost love and the Philip model may have to rise from out of the green stuff but other than that I should be fine.

Story encounters rule.  We used to play the krampus one every Christmas.  ?

 

Looks like I'm gonna fire up the old paintbrush and start crack'a'lackin!

cool 2 player box sets?  Maybe pick one up for the classroom.