Komainu Guard the Soul

[Dassenkop]

I'm relatively new to Malifaux and still experimenting with new models. Just glued my Komainu together and noticed the Guard the Soul tactical action on this model, it says

This model gains the following Condition until it takes another Action. 'Spiritual Guardian'. After an enemy model in 6 inch aura resolves a Ca Action, this model may immediatly take a (1) Ml Attack Action agains the model, ignoring range and LoS.

Komainu's Attack Action has a 2 melee range.

1. 'Resolves' covers the announcement of the enemy models Ca action, whether it his or misses is not relevant, right?

2. For example a model is in LoS of Komainu's 6 inch aura and is positioned 5 inch away from the Komainu. Also the enemy model would have cover vs a ranged attack, should the Komainu have one. When the enemy model announces its Ca action the Condition activates since the range is not relevant (as long as it is in 6 inch aura). But what happens to cover? Since LoS is ignored I would assume cover doesn't count as is the case with a 'normal' Ml attack.

I'm just puzzled why the condition mentions specifically 'ignoring range and LoS'.

 

 

[Ludvig]

1 Yes, resolves is after the action has been completely resolved but doesn't care if it succeeds or not.

2 Because you can take it on a model further away than your actual Ml attack range. Without that clause you could not. There is also a possibility of the model being outside of your LoS but that wording will still let you attack it. For example, some models can push after making an attack but even if they push out of your LoS you can attack them.

[Bengt]

Cover only ever applies to Attack Actions with the projectile symbol () in the range. "Rend the Soul" only has the close symbol (), so cover isn't relevant.

[blomkaal]

I find the fact that it ignores LoS slightly misdirecting, as the aura requires LoS to affect the enemy model. Also, with the keyword being resolves, would the Komainu not be unable to attack an enemy model that during the action is somehow moved out of it's aura?

This is all assuming it is in fact an aura effect, and not just within 6", which I can't remember.

[Ludvig]

40 minutes ago, blomkaal said:

I find the fact that it ignores LoS slightly misdirecting, as the aura requires LoS to affect the enemy model. Also, with the keyword being resolves, would the Komainu not be unable to attack an enemy model that during the action is somehow moved out of it's aura?

This is all assuming it is in fact an aura effect, and not just within 6", which I can't remember.

It is an aura so most of the time the ignore LoS will do nothing. 

As to the timing this can't be answered clearly. There was recently a discussion on effects taking place at the start of a models activation and how to resolve these (specifically Candy's paralyze aura). No real concencus was reached. Two possible ways to resolve exist as far as I know:

1 This ability kicks in as soon as someone declares a Ca action in the aura but the attack isn't taken until after the push. (Ignoring LoS and range is very relevant)

2 You check the aura after the push is resolved to see if you can take the action. (The ignoring LoS does nothing)

I haven't had this come up as a problem in any of my games but I understand how one would have a need for clarity before it becomes an issue. I wish I could give you a straight answer.

[solkan]

On 2016/1/24 at 1:54 AM, Dassenkop said:

I'm relatively new to Malifaux and still experimenting with new models. Just glued my Komainu together and noticed the Guard the Soul tactical action on this model, it says

This model gains the following Condition until it takes another Action. 'Spiritual Guardian'. After an enemy model in 6 inch aura resolves a Ca Action, this model may immediatly take a (1) Ml Attack Action agains the model, ignoring range and LoS.

Komainu's Attack Action has a 2 melee range.

1. 'Resolves' covers the announcement of the enemy models Ca action, whether it his or misses is not relevant, right?

2. For example a model is in LoS of Komainu's 6 inch aura and is positioned 5 inch away from the Komainu. Also the enemy model would have cover vs a ranged attack, should the Komainu have one. When the enemy model announces its Ca action the Condition activates since the range is not relevant (as long as it is in 6 inch aura). But what happens to cover? Since LoS is ignored I would assume cover doesn't count as is the case with a 'normal' Ml attack.

I'm just puzzled why the condition mentions specifically 'ignoring range and LoS'.

 

 

1.  'Resolved' covers a lot more than that, and is actually a bit after you determine whether the attack hits or misses.  From the steps for resolving an action:

If you're looking at the Opposed Duel sequence, Spiritual Guardian is going to apply in the "After Step 5" step, or if you're looking at the steps for resolving an action it's going to be after Step 3.

2.  Because the condition "triggers" when the action is resolved within the aura (even if that resolution causes the model to leave the aura), the condition which causes it could move the model out of the aura or even bury it, and then the Komainu gets to declare its attack ignoring range and LOS.  "ignoring range and LOS" is what's needed to attack a model that buried itself.

 

[Ludvig]

We need to find a better word for "triggers". Maybe "sets off"?

(Apoligies since this is a slightly more general observation and not tied to this specific rules interaction)

[newsun]

Conditions `activate` I think is terse and to the point.

[Ludvig]

13 minutes ago, newsun said:

Conditions `activate` I think is terse and to the point.

Except that activate is a game term referring to the activation of a model so in a discussion about conditions firing/setting off "on activation" it would be tricky to use the term "activates on activation". 

[newsun]

Hmm how about Conditions `met` instead. Was the condition met, then...

[Adran]

Back to the original point. 

Several Ca actions will move a model. The most obvious one is Leap. You try and leap away from a komanu who is guarding the soul, and it will be able to attack you. Where ever you end up! 

 

[BigHammer]

6 hours ago, Adran said:

Back to the original point. 

Several Ca actions will move a model. The most obvious one is Leap. You try and leap away from a komanu who is guarding the soul, and it will be able to attack you. Where ever you end up! 

 

Doesn't the aura's requirement for an enemy model to "resolve" the Ca action mean that if they leap to further than 6" away, they won't be affected?

Edit: Ah, I see this was the previous crux of the argument. I always took "resolve" to be the culmination of the action in question, ie "once it's finished". If the aura was to affect the model regardless of where it ended, would it not stipulate "declare" instead of "resolve"?

[blomkaal]

20 hours ago, BigHammer said:

Edit: Ah, I see this was the previous crux of the argument. I always took "resolve" to be the culmination of the action in question, ie "once it's finished". If the aura was to affect the model regardless of where it ended, would it not stipulate "declare" instead of "resolve"?

My thoughts excatly.

[MrDeathTrout]

(1) Guard the Soul: This model gains the following Condition until it takes another Action: "Spiritual Guardian: After an enemy model in 6 resolves a Ca Action, this model may immediately take a (1) Ml Attack Action against the model, ignoring range and LoS."

Simple Duels section Pg 30 Big Big -  5. Determine Success If the model’s duel total equals or exceeds the TN (which includes any required suits) the model has
won the duel and resolves the results of a win.

Opposed Duels last paragraph of step 5 Pg 33 Big Big -  Once success or failure is determined, the cards in use are discarded, and then the results of the success or failure are resolved.

Actions section Pg 37 Big Big -  3. Resolve Results After the duel is completed, the model performs the Action's effects. The most common effects are dealing damage (see pg. 44) and movement, but other things can occur.

I haven't found anything more specific about "resolving" and action then the three sections above.  In all cases it simply says resolve the results.  Spiritual Guardian says "After an enemy model in 6 resolves a Ca Action..."  If you break that down is says: After X happens within 6" and LoS then Y happens.  That seems simple enough.  In this case X is: an enemy model resolves a Ca action.  Looking at the three rules above an action is resolved once all of its effects have taken place. 

This is how I would break the timing down into steps.

1. Enemy model declares a Ca action.

2. Duels, flips, etc. are complete to determine the success or failure of the action.

3. Resolve the action.  In the case of Leap the model would be placed in its new position.

4. Check to see if the enemy model is within 6" and LoS of the Komainu. 

5. If so resolve Spiritual Guardian.

IMHO: It doesn't matter where the enemy model is when the Ca action is declared, or if the Ca action is a success or failure.  If the enemy model is within 6" and LoS when the Ca action is resolved Spiritual Guardian is set off.  In the case of Leap the enemy model could start within the 6 and Leap out and Spiritual Guardian would NOT be set off, but if the enemy model started the leap anywhere on the board (either inside or outside 6) and it ends within 6 Spiritual Guardian would be set off.

 

[kross1]

Sorry your wrong, they need only have to cast within 6" and los of the komainu, there action resolves, then regardless of los or range the komainu may make a ml action.

 

[ArcticPangolin]

1 hour ago, kross1 said:

Sorry your wrong, they need only have to cast within 6" and los of the komainu, there action resolves, then regardless of los or range the komainu may make a ml action.

 

MrDeathTrout laid out some pretty solid reasoning which I find hard to argue with. Perhaps you could explain why you think this is?

[kross1]

It's because he completely ignores the after resolving, that the komainu ignores los & range. The model that is doing the ca action has to be within 6" & in los for the komainu when he casts, he then resolves his cast, whether he fails or not is irrelevant, whether he moved out of range blocks line of sight or anything else doesn't matter, he was in the aura when he cast.

[blomkaal]

8 hours ago, kross1 said:

It's because he completely ignores the after resolving, that the komainu ignores los & range. The model that is doing the ca action has to be within 6" & in los for the komainu when he casts, he then resolves his cast, whether he fails or not is irrelevant, whether he moved out of range blocks line of sight or anything else doesn't matter, he was in the aura when he cast.

The card clearly states that the enemy modes has to be within the aura (which required both range and LoS) when the action is resolved, not declared or cast. Given MrDeathTrout's rundown of order of resolution above (granted, I don't have my book in front of me, but it seems correct), I'd say you're wrong.

[kross1]

He added a step that doesn't belong, and completely ignores the komainu's special ability. I don't know how to be any plainer.

[Adran]

After an enemy model in 6 inch aura resolves a Ca Action, this model may immediatly take a (1) Ml Attack Action agains the model, ignoring range and LoS.

 

Actions section Pg 37 Big Big -  3. Resolve Results After the duel is completed, the model performs the Action's effects. The most common effects are dealing damage (see pg. 44) and movement, but other things can occur.

 

So the model resolves the Ca action by doing what it says. 

In the case of leap. My resolving the action is moving. But I start resolving the action at the point I started. So before I moved the Model I am resolving the action, and so it sets off Guard the soul. 

 

I am also extrapolating from this FAQ answer - Which is the iffy ground, but the above arguement stands alone, and this just adds extra support. 

 A: A model counts as having Activated at the start of its Activation as soon as it is selected to Activate. It would stop benefitting from things like Manipulative at this time.

[MrDeathTrout]

Adran brings up a very good point.  "After activating" is satisfied as soon as a model completes its activation according to the FAQ.  I know may people say nothing in the FAQ can be applied to any other situation I disagree.  When trying to sort out sticky rule situations you check the rulebook.  If i can't be resoled there the next logical place is to check the FAQ.  If you have a similar situation to a FAQ answer it should be considered since it is the next best thing to a rulebook.  You must be thoughtful in extrapolating FAQ answers to other situations.

 

In this case I don't think the FAQ answer about activating applies.  Lets compare Manipulative, Companion and Guard the Soul.

Manipulative 12: If this model has not yet activated this Turn, when an enemy model targets this model with an Attack Action, the enemy model must pass a TN 12 Wp duel or the Action immediately fails.

Companion: After a friendly model ends its Activation within 6” of this model, this model may Activate immediately as a Chain Activation.

(1) Guard the Soul: This model gains the following Condition until it takes another Action: "Spiritual Guardian: After an enemy model in 6 resolves a Ca Action, this model may immediately take a (1) Ml Attack Action against the model, ignoring range and LoS."

From FAQ:  A: A model counts as having Activated at the start of its Activation as soon as it is selected to Activate. It would stop benefiting from things like Manipulative at this time.

Both abilities are keyed to specific timing of activations.  Manipulative says "not yet activated" I this can be interpreted as you have not activated until you complete your activation since "activated" is past tense, on the other hand if I was walking across the room few people would say I had "not yet moved" since I have not completed my walk across the room.  That example is not perfect since real life is not composed of discrete actions like Malifaux, but I think it illustrates the point.  Companion uses the phrase "After a friendly model ends its Activation", so the FAQ answer does not apply to it.  The key difference for me is one use the term "after" which is after something completes and the other uses "not yet" which does not require completion.  Since Guard the Soul uses the term "after" I don't think the FAQ answer applies to it.
 

[Adran]

Part B to my answer is that if we check after the effect resolves, then the model has to be in line of sight to be effected by the aura. The addition of LOS not required suggests to me that there might be a time when you could do the attack when the model isn't in LOS. 

 

[MrDeathTrout]

 

11 minutes ago, Adran said:

Part B to my answer is that if we check after the effect resolves, then the model has to be in line of sight to be effected by the aura. The addition of LOS not required suggests to me that there might be a time when you could do the attack when the model isn't in LOS. 

 

I agree with that.  I cannot think of any situation where where ignoring LoS would come into effect if we follow my line of thinking.  I think RAW supports my argument, but ignoring LoS suggest RAI is the opposite.  Then again it might just be extraneous text that will never have any effect.  Consider the Smoke & Shadows upgrade's Smoke Bombs action.  What is does the range 3 do?

(1) Smoke Bombs (Ca 5 / TN: 13 / Rg: 3): Place two 50mm Smoke Markers touching this model, and not touching any other models or Markers. These Markers are Ht 5 Blocking Objects that are removed at the end of the Turn.
Vanish: After placing the Smoke Markers, this model may take a Shadow Stride Action, This Action gains +2 Ca.