Belles, tell me why they shouldn't be toned down.

[dgraz]

however with the very poorly executed metal gamin cuddle.... from must have everywhere to 99% not worth the hire situational as a summon... the flood gates have been opened.

Opinion. 

Not fact.

[mythicFOX]

<modhat>

Gentle reminder to be respectful of each other and not be overly dismissive.

Thanks in advance  

</modhat>

[MagicGis]

however with the very poorly executed metal gamin cuddle.... from must have everywhere to 99% not worth the hire situational as a summon... the flood gates have been opened.

Opinion. 

Not fact.

Maybe however you were still unable to give me a single valid reason to genereally prefer them over a steam arach with any single master.... Also the significant drop you will see in playrate/hiring rate of the model of every bigger upcoming event will make it a fact soon enough.

Now have a look at Belles compared to Oirans (outside of Collette and a Crew that invests at least 7 pkt into a hench and 1 pkt and 2 upgrade slots into giving them new abilities). I think wer all know Oiran were on the low end of the stick for most scenarios. Here a good fixing attempt was made with hidden agenda to ... some success... 

But both models seem to be designed for a similar purpose in faction, yet one is just so much better. I think an argument can be made, as long as there are such powergaps, and some models are viewed as nearly necessary to play the faction (see every single what should a beginner buy thread of the last 6 month here in the resser forum), should this models not all get a tone down to promot crew diversity?

Now for Christ sake do not Metal Gamin them all please... do it with thought, but what the poster of the topic wanted to ask is not uninteresting, if a model has a similar position in a faction, why should it be allowed to stay that way, while others are not?

[dgraz]

 Maybe however you were still unable to give me a single valid reason to genereally prefer them over a steam arach with any single master....

you must not have read my posts about them in the appropriate thread. I see no need to repeat them here in a thread about Belles.

[oryxwild]

TT has archers and Snipers, so oiran aren't really central to the strategy. Belles are Rezzers form of ranged support. 

[monkeyking68]

Oiran are also mercenaries.  They needed to be balanced over every faction, not just the one like Belles.

[solkan]

however with the very poorly executed metal gamin cuddle.... from must have everywhere to 99% not worth the hire situational as a summon... the flood gates have been opened.

Opinion. 

Not fact.

Maybe however you were still unable to give me a single valid reason to genereally prefer them over a steam arach with any single master.... Also the significant drop you will see in playrate/hiring rate of the model of every bigger upcoming event will make it a fact soon enough.

You don't know Wyrd's reasons for changing the Metal Gamin the way they did.  So at the moment you're speculating that the Metal Gamin was changed for Reason X, and then proposing that Wyrd should apply Reason X to every faction.

I don't understand why you choose to reason from "Wyrd decided to perform this destructive change to model X for a reason I don't understand, therefore that destructive change must be applied to everyone".  It certainly doesn't appear productive or enjoyable to reason that way.  It would be better if you tried to figure out what the productive reason for the change was, first.

 

Edited November 29, 2015 by solkan

[dgraz]

It would be even better to think about new ways to use it instead of dismissing it and being angry because it doesn't function as the crutch it used to.

[OldManMyke]

yes the domination of belle based lists must be ended ASAP. Oh wait...

[Rathnard]

Rotten Belles are great. They're near-auto-includes and have featured in most Resser lists I've made (but not all). That said, I've never found them to be overpowered for their cost. They're an excellent tool, but I don't remember any times where their Lure has been carried the game for me. 

Could their power level be reduced slightly? Sure, I guess. If or when we get playtesting M3E then I'm sure Wyrd would look at adjusting the Rotten Belle accordingly. But short of a wholesale revision of the game, I'm not convinced it's necessary. We're not seeing Belle-spam lists ruling the tournament circuit and while there's the odd lively debate about how good/bad spamming Rotten Belles are, the community is hardly in agreement over it. 

As for Metal Gamin, well, this isn't a thread about Metal Gamin.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Rathnard

[Math Mathonwy]

If Rotten Belles were made and tested today, I'm sure that they wouldn't become as powerful as they are. But that said, I think that they fit into the Faction balance. Nurses, Necropunks, Crooked Men - you still see those even with Rotten Belles at the same price-point. Were they Neverborn, for example, I think that they would be more broken.

Also, I would draw absolutely no conclusions about anything at all based on a Faction's performance in Nythera! The rules (and especially that one event) for the campaing were not very well thought out, I think.

[MEGAHORSE]

I think this thread contains quite a bit of truth... however with the very poorly executed metal gamin cuddle.... from must have everywhere to 99% not worth the hire situational as a summon... the flood gates have been opened.

 

Why should anybody now still accept a model being near mandatory in a faction?

 

Look at the new player advises... get belles is everywhere... for a good reason... The same argument as for metal gamin can be made that they may even generate a negative play experience for the opponent in some situations... for the gamins it were even the mech rider most people complained about yet she remained untiuched while the gamin were put to sleep...

I think every faction should now expect their must have minion to get the hammer after extensive forum complaints to a lvl that nearly invalidates the buy... otherwise the cuddle/balancing policy seems even weirder. 

 

I actually think promoting diversity would be good... PoM needed fixing so maybe belles need ca 7 the problem is the metal gamin cuddle suggests they would also loose h2w and pounce ^^

I think you are confusing mandatory and useful. Many lists can make use of belles. However, they are not mandatory. See the above post where the UK tourney was won without a single belle. If they're mandatory, this contradicts it entirely. 

Why should every faction get a cuddle along with the gamin if the gamin were the problem and not being used as intended? So all of these minions are now guilty by association? What exactly would that solve?

edit: I like what someone else said in the closed topic about belles. 

"Should lure be removed from all the other 5ss models that have it too then?  Sure they aren't as good at it, but they also do lots of other things better than Belles.  Belles are the best in the game at it because it's pretty much the only thing they're good at (for their cost).  I could get behind a reduction to Ca 7 if it's too much (after enough data has been collected), however lots of people in this thread are calling for Ca 6.  This would be a "my threatening gun" all over again, the model would be rendered useless with a double cuddle.  at +0 to lure I would see little reason to spend 5SS on a belle, when for the same cost you have other models with the same lure AND other great abilities. Performers would be objectively better than belles at that point, for the same cost.  And anyone can take them for 6SS, so even in Seamus lists they would probably be preferable.

 

EDIT: And honestly even with things the way they are performers are probably better than belles.  Better damage, more versatile, can hand out reactivate and take interact actions while engaged.  Also flat out amazing triggers and can cripple models with seduction.  They're like the nurse and rotten belle had a better baby."

http://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/99589-rotten-bells-lure-is-too-much/?do=findComment&comment=710606 

Edited December 3, 2015 by gromgrom

[bertmac]

I quite like my models being lured it tends to be 1 less ap I have to spend closing with the enemy. Then again I've been lucky enough to have Howard Langston and willie lured into close contact with my opponents crews.