Wong's Lightning Jump and Kirai's Malevolence

[DocSchlock]

This came up in a tournament a bit ago.

Wong uses Lightning Jump targeting a Flesh Construct in base to base with Kirai.
 

(1) Lightning Jump (Ca 7tomes / TN: 13tomes / Rst: Df / Rg: (gun icon)10): Target suffers

2/3bb/5bbb damage. This model flips a card which may not be cheated for every

model within p3 of the target. All models which receive a Crow suffer 2 damage.

Wong hits and flips for damage, getting severe - 5 with three blast markers. The markers are placed, and Kirai is damaged but not killed. Does Kirai use Malevolence now, or does she wait for Wong to perform the pulse damage flip in the action?

Malevolence: After a friendly Living or Undead

model within a6 suffers damage from an

enemy Attack Action, this model may discard a

Soulstone or a card to summon Ikiryo into base

contact with the Attacking model.

Way I ruled it:
Since "After ... suffers damage" is not a timing as defined in the rulebook ("after damaging" is not the same as "after ... suffers damage"), the ability must occur at the earliest possible time, so it would happen after the damage flip / application but before the pulse damage, all inside Step 5.

How do other people play it? Is there a solid counter-argument to the above (like if Justin said "after ... suffers damage" does have the same timing)?
 

[Philosfr]

After damaging and suffers damage would be two sides to the same coin. I would think they happen at the same time. The target is the model that is doing the damaging, so they would read "after damaging" on their attack, but the target is the one that suffers the damage. There have been threads talking about why the language isn't identical, and it was pointed out that this was done due to English. Phrasing something as "after the attacker causes the defender to suffer damage" just to make the language the same is unwieldy, and still opens up questions.

[Adran]

I think the action would finish before Kirai can Malevolence. I would probably go as far as to expect the action to finish before Kirai would try and damage reduce from stones etc.

[DocSchlock]

 After damaging and suffers damage would be two sides to the same coin. I would think they happen at the same time. The target is the model that is doing the damaging, so they would read "after damaging" on their attack, but the target is the one that suffers the damage. There have been threads talking about why the language isn't identical, and it was pointed out that this was done due to English. Phrasing something as "after the attacker causes the defender to suffer damage" just to make the language the same is unwieldy, and still opens up questions.

 

"After damaging" is explicitly pointed out as being of that exact language in the book. "after succeeding / resolving / damaging" are the only explicit timings in the book and must use that exact language. See the Dreamer "Safe in My Bed" FAQ entry for an example of a timing that uses "after .. succeeds" but does not use the "after succeeding" timing.

 

 

 

I think the action would finish before Kirai can Malevolence. I would probably go as far as to expect the action to finish before Kirai would try and damage reduce from stones etc.

This doesn't make sense, since, for example, if the blast triggered Black Blood, you could stone for the Black Blood damage before the pulse effect of the Jump. Stoning can be done whenever you take damage, and since this is two separate applications of damage, you could stone for each, similar to attacks with Slug or stoning for the damage track + Black Blood damage.

[MrDeathTrout]

I had always considered "after damaging" and "after ... suffers damage" to mean the exact same thing and would have resolved the timing as if they were both triggers, but after reading the "Safe in my Bed" FAQ entry.  I think you made the right call and will use the resolve as soon a possible for any non-specific timing issues in the future.

[MrDeathTrout]

I noticed another odd timing issue.  Taelor's trigger: Crushing Blow: After Succeeding, this Attack ignores Armor and Hard to Kill".  By strict interpretation of the rules the attack would not ignore armor until after step 5 (after attack is resolved and all the damage had been dealt) correct?

 

RAI is pretty obvious and I'm not suggesting the attack does not ignore armor or hard to kill, I was just wondering if I was missing something or if this is just an oversight in the phasing.  I noticed several other models with similar issues in the first book.

[AoS]

Page 51 GENERAL TIMMING in the rule book . The little one.

 

 

Whenever any Ability happens at the same time as any Triggers, the Triggers are resolved first.

 

Triggers are resolved after the step 5 "determine success" in OPPOSED DUELS page 25. So this is after damaging if I'm not wrong, (some triggers are resolved while damaging)

 

So I would say you have to do all the damage, blast included, and then Kirai can use her ability to summon Ikirio.

[DocSchlock]

 

Page 51 GENERAL TIMMING in the rule book . The little one.

 

 

Whenever any Ability happens at the same time as any Triggers, the Triggers are resolved first.

 

Triggers are resolved after the step 5 "determine success" in OPPOSED DUELS page 25. So this is after damaging if I'm not wrong, (some triggers are resolved while damaging)

 

So I would say you have to do all the damage, blast included, and then Kirai can use her ability to summon Ikirio.

 

Triggers are not universally resolved after Step 5 (where the results of the Action are applied if successful). Only "after damaging / succeeding / resolving" are resolved after Step 5 because we are told so in the rulebook (pg 23, small book, "A Trigger's effect is resolved immediately unless

indicated in the Trigger's description" - goes on to point out 3 specific timings). You are correct in that Triggers will resolve before Abilities, but only if they have the exact same timing step.

Also gonna point out, Wong's Jump is not a Trigger - it's an Action. Malevolence is an Ability.

 

 

I noticed another odd timing issue.  Taelor's trigger: Crushing Blow: After Succeeding, this Attack ignores Armor and Hard to Kill".  By strict interpretation of the rules the attack would not ignore armor until after step 5 (after attack is resolved and all the damage had been dealt) correct?

 

RAI is pretty obvious and I'm not suggesting the attack does not ignore armor or hard to kill, I was just wondering if I was missing something or if this is just an oversight in the phasing.  I noticed several other models with similar issues in the first book.

Oversight. It should have said "When damaging" to work within the correct timing - by RAW, that trigger doesn't work at all (unless you believe it gives you the ability to go back in time and apply damage that was ignored, but that causes a lot of problems), but the RAI is clear on that one. A few Wave 1 models have timing issues (see Road Kill Scholar on McMourning's upgrade) I'm going to guess because the system was being created at the same time, but by-and-large most timings work in Wave 1.

[baggined]

So, in an effort to maybe make this discussion a little clearer, here is a generalization of what was going on and where the questions popped up:

 

Setup:  

   Wong is within 10" of a Flesh construct, Lost Love is a few inches away from Flesh Construct.

 

 

1. Wong Lightning Jumps the Flesh Construct, getting severe damage.

   (Lightning Jump has a damage track with Blasts and also a pulse in which you flip cards for more damage, all part of the Lightning Jump attack: see original post by DocSchlock)

2. Wong drops blasts onto Lost Love

   Malevolence would be activated by damage to Flesh construct

   First Question: does Malevolence resolve right now and Ikyro can summon next to Wong?

3. Wong flips for the second part of his Lightning Jump attack (this is not a trigger, just another sentence in his attack)

   Lost Love takes two damage from this pulse and is killed.

   Second Question: Does Malevolence not resolve until now or does it not resolve at all because Lost Love is gone?

 

Hope this helps illustrate the situation.

[AoS]

 

Triggers are not universally resolved after Step 5 (where the results of the Action are applied if successful). Only "after damaging / succeeding / resolving" are resolved after Step 5 because we are told so in the rulebook (pg 23, small book, "A Trigger's effect is resolved immediately unless

indicated in the Trigger's description" - goes on to point out 3 specific timings). You are correct in that Triggers will resolve before Abilities, but only if they have the exact same timing step.

Also gonna point out, Wong's Jump is not a Trigger - it's an Action. Malevolence is an Ability.

 

 

I was just doing a comparation between an ability which activates when someone suffer damage (Malevolence) and any trigger which activates after damaging, (those kind of triggers are always resolved after step 5). 

 

That hypothetical trigger and Malevolence have the same timming, so by the page 51 GENERAL TIMMING the trigger would activated first.

 

after this, it would be 1º  hypothetical trigger; 2º Malevolence

 

This kind of triggers are resolved after step 5. page 26.

 

So this would be 1º Damage and blast, 2º hypothetical trigger, 3º Malevolence

 

Now we can remuve the hypothetical trigger which is only to stablish the order and we would have:

 

1º Damage and blast, 3º Malevolence.

 

I think the Lost Love can activate Malevolence, die by a blast, and then resolve the effects of Malevolence.

But not sure if this works this way.

 

 

If I have to choose, I would say that you can activate Malevolence in the moment that the construct suffer damage, but you can't resolve the effects from Malevolences before the Wong's action is completly resolved.

[Justin]

I had always considered "after damaging" and "after ... suffers damage" to mean the exact same thing and would have resolved the timing as if they were both triggers, but after reading the "Safe in my Bed" FAQ entry.  I think you made the right call and will use the resolve as soon a possible for any non-specific timing issues in the future.

 

It's worth noting that Triggers have very specifically defined timing, and none of the above question actually relates to Triggers.

 

Carry on.

[DocSchlock]

It's worth noting that Triggers have very specifically defined timing, and none of the above question actually relates to Triggers.

 

Carry on.

This is a valid point (one I had forgotten) - the ruling for Safe in My Bed is in relation only to triggers (since FAQ rulings are narrow) and this discussion isn't about Triggers.

Do Abilities still occur when they say? The rulebook doesn't talk at all about ability timing aside from timing conflicts. Does "after succeeding / resolving / damaging" mean something different between Triggers and Abilities?

Common sense dictates abilities would still follow the defined timings, but we just come back to "after .... suffers damage" not being defined, so realistically it would happen as soon as possible.

Standard ending: I'm always open to being embarrassingly wrong.

 

[solkan]

Do Abilities still occur when they say? The rulebook doesn't talk at all about ability timing aside from timing conflicts. Does "after succeeding / resolving / damaging" mean something different between Triggers and Abilities?

 

?

 

General Timing

Most Abilities grant a passive effect, some of which have their effect when a model suffers damage or is killed. Whenever any Ability happens at the same time as any Triggers, the Triggers are resolved first. If two Abilities happen at the same time, resolve them in the following order:

1. The Acting Model resolves its Abilities.

2. The Defending Model (if there is one)

resolves its Abilities.

3. Any other models controlled by the First Player resolves all of their Ability effects in any order the First Player chooses.

4. Any other models controlled by the Second Player resolves all of their Ability effects in any order the Second Player chooses.

 

In order for any of that to make any sense, you have to have Abilities that have the same timing as Triggers.  But note the part highlighted in red.

[rgarbonzo]

I would say that Wong's attack action is not complete until all of Lightning Jump has been completed. IMO RAI Wong's attack is not complete until the pulse damage is also complete then any triggers or abilities would happen, but I have been wrong before.

[Justin]

No part of the question involves a Trigger.

[DocSchlock]

No part of the question involves a Trigger.

^ This.

The question is, does Wong's Action continuing after apply the damage track or does an Ability with the "after ... suffers damage" occur between the damage track line and an additional Action line. No Triggers.

 

[thebarbalag]

Acting model resolves its abilities, which would be the damage and the pulse, then defending model, if there is one, resolves its abilities. To me, this sounds like Wong does all of his damage, then, if the Lost Love is dead, no defending model with abilities to resolve. That's my view.

[DocSchlock]

Acting model resolves its abilities, which would be the damage and the pulse, then defending model, if there is one, resolves its abilities. To me, this sounds like Wong does all of his damage, then, if the Lost Love is dead, no defending model with abilities to resolve. That's my view.

The Damage and the pulse are parts of an Action, not an Ability. If this were two Abilities coming into conflict, the answer would be very clear from the General Timing box.

[sharpobjects]

The effects from Wongs Attack Action would be resolved as far as what models would suffer damage from the initial hit to the blasts as well as the pulse. Once all the models suffer the damage from Wongs Attack Action then the Malevolence ability would kick in for the defender.

 

This would happen before any models are removed from the board that would be killed from all the damage resulting from the effects of Wong's Attack Action. So even if lost love was going to suffer enough damage to kill him, the Malevolence ability would kick in at the "suffering" before killed and removed. So Ikiryo would be able to come out if the Kirai player wished for that to happen and could pay the one card or one soulstone cost.

 

Then any models that would be killed from the damage they suffered would be removed. 

 

Page 46

 

General Timing:

 

Most Abilities grant a passive effect, some of which have their effect when a model suffers damage or is killed. 

 

In the scenario presented in this thread we have an ability that grants an effect that kicks in when a friendly undead or living model suffers damage within the Aura. You suffer damage and then check to see if you are killed. Before checking to see if you are killed the Malevolence ability kicks in first. 

 

Nomally the acting model resolves its abilities first but in this case Wong is using an Attack Action which is not an ability. Next you would resolve the defenders ability which in this case is Malevolence. 

[Dirial]

[...]

 

I concur.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Agree.

[DocSchlock]

The effects from Wongs Attack Action would be resolved as far as what models would suffer damage from the initial hit to the blasts as well as the pulse. Once all the models suffer the damage from Wongs Attack Action then the Malevolence ability would kick in for the defender.

 

This would happen before any models are removed from the board that would be killed from all the damage resulting from the effects of Wong's Attack Action. So even if lost love was going to suffer enough damage to kill him, the Malevolence ability would kick in at the "suffering" before killed and removed. So Ikiryo would be able to come out if the Kirai player wished for that to happen and could pay the one card or one soulstone cost.

 

Then any models that would be killed from the damage they suffered would be removed. 

 

Page 46

 

General Timing:

 

Most Abilities grant a passive effect, some of which have their effect when a model suffers damage or is killed. 

 

In the scenario presented in this thread we have an ability that grants an effect that kicks in when a friendly undead or living model suffers damage within the Aura. You suffer damage and then check to see if you are killed. Before checking to see if you are killed the Malevolence ability kicks in first. 

 

Nomally the acting model resolves its abilities first but in this case Wong is using an Attack Action which is not an ability. Next you would resolve the defenders ability which in this case is Malevolence. 

After the first damage is applied inside Step 5, I've already suffered damage. Then I suffer damage again, but I don't count as suffering damage until all the lines are done resolving? I'm not convinced "after ... suffers damage" means  "after ... suffers ALL DAMAGE FROM THAT SOURCE".

A similar illustrating example: Black Blood occurs when a model suffers damage. I 100% believe beyond a doubt that Black Blood will trigger twice in one Lightning Jump, since damage is applied twice and separately. Armor will reduce both instances of damage as well. So why are we considering both damages all of a sudden one "unit"? Why wouldn't I check for death after the first damage is applied, since that model has suffered damage and killed models are removed "immediately" ( I agree Malevolence would occur before the model is removed - I'm arguing it would happen right after the core damage track / blasts)? This timing becomes more important when used against models with "after suffering damage"-based pushes - do they escape the pulse or get trapped in it?

[AoS]

Wong's attack does the damage to the objective, and does damage for each crow blablabla... This is not Wong doing first the damage, and after this, the damage's pulse. All this happens at the same time after the step 5, you apply all the damage and then you can use the ability. Am I wrong?

[Adran]

I've looked at the rules and decided I was wrong before. Whilst each damage is obviously a seperate thing, they are done one after the other, so you can daamge the flesh construct with lighting jump, decide not to malevolence, damage Lost love with the blasts (order of this is up to attacking player) choose to not malevanlence, then flip for pulse effect The Flesh construct, decide not to malevolence, then flip for the pulse on Lost love, decide not to malevolence. Each of those steps is discret, so if the last pulse doesn't do damage, and you haven't bought out Ikryu, then you can't bring out Ikryu.

 

I think you can bring out Ikryu from a damaging source that kills the model with Malevolence, as it is still around atthe time Malevolence would happen.

 

I also think if you bring out Ikaryu during the blast damage step, she could take damage from the blast, and if you bring her out from the pulse effect she could still take damage from the pulse.

[Math Mathonwy]

Wong's attack does the damage to the objective, and does damage for each crow blablabla... This is not Wong doing first the damage, and after this, the damage's pulse. All this happens at the same time after the step 5, you apply all the damage and then you can use the ability. Am I wrong?

A Hard to Kill model at two wounds hit by Wong's blast and Pulse can die since the damages come separately.

[sharpobjects]

I cannot find anywhere in the book that states that effects from a single Attack Action are resolved seperately. Meaning that each damage is resolved before the next damage is resolved. This is important when checking to see if the model is killed and or interrupting that check with a defenders ability that kicks in after suffering damage. 

 

Page 33 #5 Determine Success we learn that if the Attacker suceeds in the duel then you proceed to the Attack Actions results, which in this case is a damage flip. 

 

Page 37 under Resolve Effects states that after a duel is completed, the model performs the Actions effects. The most common effects are dealing damage. 

 

Page 50 under Blasts we do have a sentence that states in situations where the order that models suffer damage matters, the Attacker may determine the order in which the affected model resolve the blast effects. 

 

Page 51 under pulses it doesnt say anything about the attacker resolving the order of the effects so that would default to the defender since he controls the models. 

 

 

I was always of the opinion that each model damaged in succession would be resolved before the next one suffered damage. So in the case of the OP the Flesh Construct was the target of Wong's attack and suffered damage. Before this thread I would have said that Malevolence would have the first chance to kick in here. Then the blast markers are placed and the next model suffers damage from the blast and Malevolence would have a chance to kick in there. Then the pulses are resolved and once again Malevolence would have a chance to kick in there.

 

After each model was damaged by Wongs effects of the Attack Action you would remove any models that were reduced to zero wounds one by one. Allowiing for Malevolence to kick in before removal. 

 

But after going through the book and re-reading everything I dont see where it states that we would do it that way when facing an Attack Action that issues multiple effects like Wong's. The rules state you resolve the Attack Actions effects after you have determined the Attacker won the duel, step 5. It would seem you would resolve all of Wongs effects, then Lost Love's ability kicks in and then you remove any models that were at zero wounds.

 

The one thing that has been resolved with regards to the OP is that the Malelolence ability will happen after models suffer damage but before being removed from play. That includes Lost Love himself. That point is clear and I hope the OP understands that. Targeting Lost love and reducing him to zero wounds will not stop Ikiryo from coming out just before you would remove Lost Love from the table, for example.

 

So to sum up, do you resolve all of the effects of an Attack Action against all of the models that would be affected before checking for defenders abilities like Malevolence or do you resolve each effect on a model, then check for abilities and then check to see if its killed and then move onto the next model and so on.