Collete and prompt

[Fetid Strumpet]

Because she was a master last edition, one of the most powerful tier 1 masters, she has the showgirl theme, and a play style (last edition) which didn't emphasize killing, making her very popular. Lucius was a henchman last edition, and not an incredibly popular one from what I saw in my own tiny meta and from online posts, so he most likely didn't get a lot of attention. As in not a lot of people were tossing out ideas or comparisons.

 

Personal opinion, not necessarily the reality.

[zFiend]

Admiralvorkraft you make many solid points.

[admiralvorkraft]

Based on Wyrd's general MO I would have assumed that the model who got less playtesting would come out more problematic than the one that got more (see; Gremlins) but I imagine a lot of his abilities could have gotten theory-fauxed down whereas there was an active community crying foul if Colette got weaker.

 

And of course in the last beta the Emissaries seemed to just get stronger and stronger, so it's not like the Beta process is a perfect one.

 

And Justin, if you're reading this, you're awesome. The game is awesome. And if Lucius could get a 2 stone upgrade (the difference between his Cache and Colette's) called something like Chain of Command or Unquestioned Authority that allowed him to target non-minion Mimics and Guardsmen I would be so happy. I could actually use Surprisingly Loyal in Guild, I could run Guard Sergeants, I could, I could...

 

EDIT: Thanks zFiend! One thing learning to run Lucius does to a person is make them look way too deeply at what 1 AP can buy you. *far away, haunted look*

[joediamond]

 

Based on Wyrd's general MO I would have assumed that the model who got less playtesting would come out more problematic than the one that got more (see; Gremlins) but I imagine a lot of his abilities could have gotten theory-fauxed down whereas there was an active community crying foul if Colette got weaker.

 

And of course in the last beta the Emissaries seemed to just get stronger and stronger, so it's not like the Beta process is a perfect one.

 

And Justin, if you're reading this, you're awesome. The game is awesome. And if Lucius could get a 2 stone upgrade (the difference between his Cache and Colette's) called something like Chain of Command or Unquestioned Authority that allowed him to target non-minion Mimics and Guardsmen I would be so happy. I could actually use Surprisingly Loyal in Guild, I could run Guard Sergeants, I could, I could...

 

EDIT: Thanks zFiend! One thing learning to run Lucius does to a person is make them look way too deeply at what 1 AP can buy you. *far away, haunted look*

 

I don't see how buffing Lucius would affect anything for Colette/Prompt. 

 

@OP:

 

The general consensus I see on this thread is that Prompt is a bit over the top, but perhaps some advice for dealing with Colette is in order?  From your post, it sounds like it was your first time fighting them.

1) Isolate and kill any performers she has.  Not only are they good minions, but Precious can really hurt if you're not paying attention.  Colette is a valid target for Reactivate when they are sacrificed (including sacrificed for her Death Defying trigger).

 

2) Use blasts, non-damaging enemy movement, and scheme marker removal to put her on the defensive.  There are ways around her defenses that aren't "Use an Executioner/Joss/Student of X to negate triggers."  You may not kill her, but if your opponent decides she is in danger, (s)he might at least spend some AP to get her out of trouble.  That's less AP going into Prompt, and the more she hides and repositions, the better for you.  I generally find Colette is the quarterback, and she wants to be right behind the line of scrimmage, so to speak.  Making her be less daring means she can't support her crew as well.

 

3) Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you can plop 40/50mm models on top of scheme markers to completely block LOS to them.  Which means Showgirls cannot target them for their abilities/actions.

 

4) Debuffs of any kind.  Slow, Paralyzed,  .  As you know, she is VERY good at avoiding direct damage, but indirect things like that can take the wind out of her sails just like any other master.

 

Sorry if this was a bit off-topic, but I feel like this thread is just saying "PROMPT OP!  PROMPT IS BROKEN!" over and over, which doesn't really help if you are looking to get over the shock of seeing your first show at the Star Theater.     I am by no means an expert (although I do have some experience with/against Colette), but I hope this helps a bit the next time you encounter her.

[Dirial]

3) Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe you can plop 40/50mm models on top of scheme markers to completely block LOS to them.  Which means Showgirls cannot target them for their abilities/actions.

 

Good advice!

[admiralvorkraft]

@Joediamond You're right, I was off topic.

 

Your advice is also excellent advice for dealing with almost any master in the game (take away their support, hit them indirectly, make them spend AP moving). One specific bit of Colette insight I have is that all of her abilities have different ranges, and many of them are quite short. That means she's playing a tricky little positioning game, and that if you can disrupt it (lures, performers, pushes, etc.) can make a big difference.

 

The problem with Prompt, and why I got on my Lucius tangent, is that Prompt is more efficient and carries fewer limitations than any comparable action. I don't think there would be this issue if Prompt was limited to Minions/Showgirls (the way Issue Command is limited to Minions, or Machine Puppet is limited to Constructs). Prompt also has the problem of the push, an effect which some other friendly obey-types has as a trigger.

 

There are a ton of ways in which Prompt could have not been an issue. Unfortunately, as-is, it is objectively better in every non-corner case way than any similar action in the game.

 

That all being said. It's still better than the bullsh** in most mini's games, and the only thing I actually hate seeing on the table from Arcanists is the damn Duet. Colette's fine, but the Duet... Nightmares.

[bertmac]

@Joediamond You're right, I was off topic.

Your advice is also excellent advice for dealing with almost any master in the game (take away their support, hit them indirectly, make them spend AP moving). One specific bit of Colette insight I have is that all of her abilities have different ranges, and many of them are quite short. That means she's playing a tricky little positioning game, and that if you can disrupt it (lures, performers, pushes, etc.) can make a big difference.

The problem with Prompt, and why I got on my Lucius tangent, is that Prompt is more efficient and carries fewer limitations than any comparable action. I don't think there would be this issue if Prompt was limited to Minions/Showgirls (the way Issue Command is limited to Minions, or Machine Puppet is limited to Constructs). Prompt also has the problem of the push, an effect which some other friendly obey-types has as a trigger.

There are a ton of ways in which Prompt could have not been an issue. Unfortunately, as-is, it is objectively better in every non-corner case way than any similar action in the game.

That all being said. It's still better than the bullsh** in most mini's games, and the only thing I actually hate seeing on the table from Arcanists is the damn Duet. Colette's fine, but the Duet... Nightmares.

recent tournament i was at my opponent running cassandra in a henchman led game moved his coryphee within range of my rifleman expecting it to survive for the other to dance together and form up. Straight damage flips with double crit strike equals dead coryphee and no chance of a duet kicking my ass!

[admiralvorkraft]

Oh yeah, the individual dancers are easy; Austringer -> Companion activate a Rifleman -> Dead. Which is why I never see individual Coryphee on the table anymore, they deploy off in a corner, move and Voltron up and then the Duet lays waste to everything it touches.

 

Ramos does shred them with extreme prejudice, but I need to pick up McMourning or McCabe so I have a decent response to it in both my factions.

[Dirial]

Ramos does shred them with extreme prejudice, but I need to pick up McMourning or McCabe so I have a decent response to it in both my factions.

 

Perdiiiiiiitaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.................................

[admiralvorkraft]

Perdiiiiiiitaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.................................

 

You remember Edna, from the Incredibles? No family.

 

I like my friends too much

[Dirial]

You remember Edna, from the Incredibles? No family.

 

I like my friends too much

 

We're discussing Colette here after all.

[admiralvorkraft]

True, some friends they are.

[Math Mathonwy]

There are a ton of ways in which Prompt could have not been an issue. Unfortunately, as-is, it is objectively better in every non-corner case way than any similar action in the game.

Prompt is too good but, just to note, Obey can be used on enemy models so there is that. Also, Alpha is pretty boss Empty Night is also pretty cool. And Pull the Strings is as bonkers as Prompt is. So I would argue that out of the Obey-like effects, though Prompt is certainly one of the best, it isn't clearly the best.

That said, I think that out of those listed, Colette, Dreamer, and Collodi should all have come out a bit different from the beta.

[Whut]

Can I just bring this off to a very slight tangent for one moment? It has to do with showgirls at least. No matter how much I see the Coryphee Duet praised I can't help but be somewhat neutral in my feelings towards taking them. I just feel that if you take this 14 point setup you are hoping that your opponent doesn't have...

Armor ignoring ranged attacks - Levi, Perdita, Oxfordian Mages, etc

Damage that can be dealt in large doses at a reasonable success rate - McMourning, Seamus, the entire Gremlin Faction

Long Range Lures (to pull up to 14" in one activation by rotten belles/performers/Beckoners, etc against WP4) before they can form the duet.

Things with leap, swift, nimble, etc and Armor Ignoring Attacks (I'm sure you can find these in Neverborn, but elsewhere too)

And sure you can try to stay out of LoS, but then you aren't taking advantage of their superior movement speed and AP, right? Against some of the above, the Duet is as good as dead, 14 ss gone. Against most others, it's a pretty heavy inconvenience to 14ss isn't it? Getting forced to form the duet early also diminishes the extra scheme running you can get out of the single coryphees.

My biggest issue however is that 2/4/5, even with a built in plus, doesn't wow me when compared to Howard or the Myrandabus which are slightly cheaper and much cheaper, respectively.

Please prove me wrong, I just bought Colette with Coryphees and I really want to use them to their fullest potential.

Also is Colette the best to run them with? Against which faction are they least likely to face something that tears them apart?

[admiralvorkraft]

You are gambling a bit that your opponent doesn't have a good counter to the Duet, but honestly they usually won't come loaded for that particular bear and against an opponent without armor ignoring attacks you're laughing.

 

Even against models that ignore armor you've got high defensive stats with built-in positive twists, an incredible (0), Swift, Always in Motion, Wk 7, Cg 9, built in pushes on your attack and potentially access to Soulstones. All of which make them super difficult to pin down, and you can easily pick your targets. Plus with all of your attacks focused you can reliably hit 4/5 damage which is nothing to sneeze at.

 

Honestly they may lack a little damage output compared to Langston, but basically everything loses that comparison, and the Duet is harder to both kill and avoid.

[Blaze]

Can I just bring this off to a very slight tangent for one moment? It has to do with showgirls at least. No matter how much I see the Coryphee Duet praised I can't help but be somewhat neutral in my feelings towards taking them. I just feel that if you take this 14 point setup you are hoping that your opponent doesn't have...

Armor ignoring ranged attacks - Levi, Perdita, Oxfordian Mages, etc

Damage that can be dealt in large doses at a reasonable success rate - McMourning, Seamus, the entire Gremlin Faction

Long Range Lures (to pull up to 14" in one activation by rotten belles/performers/Beckoners, etc against WP4) before they can form the duet.

Things with leap, swift, nimble, etc and Armor Ignoring Attacks (I'm sure you can find these in Neverborn, but elsewhere too)

And sure you can try to stay out of LoS, but then you aren't taking advantage of their superior movement speed and AP, right? Against some of the above, the Duet is as good as dead, 14 ss gone. Against most others, it's a pretty heavy inconvenience to 14ss isn't it? Getting forced to form the duet early also diminishes the extra scheme running you can get out of the single coryphees.

My biggest issue however is that 2/4/5, even with a built in plus, doesn't wow me when compared to Howard or the Myrandabus which are slightly cheaper and much cheaper, respectively.

Please prove me wrong, I just bought Colette with Coryphees and I really want to use them to their fullest potential.

Also is Colette the best to run them with? Against which faction are they least likely to face something that tears them apart?

The duet is amazing, I use them in every game I play with Colette.

You listed a bunch of stuff that can kill them, sure that can happen. However the same can be said for any model that you put onto the table.

If you make your crew selection based on what if's then you will field nothing.

Yes Colette is the best master to run them with. She can prompt them together if needs be. Also the extra actions from prompt with her on them is great.

Also make sure to take Cassy, she is also fantastic.

Carcossa, I have read this thread and the other about Lucious. You need to understand that Prompt is preety much all Colette does, sure she can summon doves and is unkillable, however she gives ger AP to her other models. I agree that it is great and the fact that you can use it on the same target is fractured, however all of the Showgirls, yes even the Duet are fragile. At the end of the day, its a 7 wound model. It has lots of + flips and armour 2, but you did have 2 ronin who ignore armour.

Anyway, Colette is a top tier master and alot of people stuggle against her. Especially the first time they see her.

And just to clear up some conjecture here, guys I didnt have Howard. My crew was:

Colette

Cassandra

Angelica

Coryphee x2

Performer

Manequin

Oxfordian Mage

A few upgrades thrown in, I cannot remember them. It was a fairly mild list.

Anyway that wil do me for now.

[admiralvorkraft]

Man, I wouldn't say that Prompt is "what Colette does." She has so many ways of buffing her models and facilitating the actions that she needs to make happen that it's pretty silly. However, your sentiment is fair - it's not like she has an attack worth mentioning.

[Carcosa]

@ Blaze

Remember buddy, I never complained about the rest of the stuff you are mentioning, and even said it was fine as that is the way the crew (not your's in particular for the day) is set up. I am -only- complaining about prompt, specifically it's low cost, no drawback and free targeting of any model. Hell, I encouraged you to take the most broken thing you could think of with her!!

 

I don't mind losing, you know this after way too many years to count, but you also know I will look at things and say "that particular thing is just fucked up", and I even do it when I -win- games and I am talking of my own army!

[zFiend]

I don't mind losing, you know this after way too many years to count, but you also know I will look at things and say "that particular thing is just fucked up", and I even do it when I -win- games and I am talking of my own army!

 

This is a very good feat to have. 

[Blaze]

@ Blaze

Remember buddy, I never complained about the rest of the stuff you are mentioning, and even said it was fine as that is the way the crew (not your's in particular for the day) is set up. I am -only- complaining about prompt, specifically it's low cost, no drawback and free targeting of any model. Hell, I encouraged you to take the most broken thing you could think of with her!!

 

I don't mind losing, you know this after way too many years to count, but you also know I will look at things and say "that particular thing is just fucked up", and I even do it when I -win- games and I am talking of my own army!

Whoa, pull the reins there Min, I didnt say that you complained about the crew. What i pointed out was that this is what Colette does. If you re-read my post you will notice that I agree with you that the ability is fractured.

I think if you really want to compare Colettes prompt ability to something then it needs to be compared to Hoffmans machine puppet.

He can do the same thing, (4 times with a upgrade) on a peacekeeper. Yet i dont hear people complain about this, maybe because not as many people play the Hoff so alot of players have not experienced it.

[Blaze]

Man, I wouldn't say that Prompt is "what Colette does." She has so many ways of buffing her models and facilitating the actions that she needs to make happen that it's pretty silly. However, your sentiment is fair - it's not like she has an attack worth mentioning.

Well she is a support master. She just happens to be one of the best support masters in the game.

[admiralvorkraft]

Agreed, rivaled only by McCabe in non-scheme marker heavy pools.

[Bengt]

For those who think Prompt is so much better than Obey, don't you ever Obey enemy models? I mean sure the bulk of Obeys will be on friendly models since it has a higher success chance, but occasionally messing up the opponent's placement (either for VP or to break synergies) is a powerful tool to have.

[dgraz]

 Yet i dont hear people complain about this, maybe because not as many people play the Hoff so alot of players have not experienced it.

No, it's because the Hoff can't influence most of the table while doing his thing. He isn't dropping Scheme Markers all over the place with great mobility and all that like the Showgirls...because.............Hoff-ball is a thing. 

[Blaze]

No, it's because the Hoff can't influence most of the table while doing his thing. He isn't dropping Scheme Markers all over the place with great mobility and all that like the Showgirls...because.............Hoff-ball is a thing.

That's true, the Hoff crew does not have the movement ability of a showgirl crew, however with machine puppet you can still move a model 2" (admittedly with a trigger) and do an action. It's still quite similar.

Now saying that. A hoff crew can get quite a bit of movement in it aswell. Watchers and hunters spring to mind. A couple of upgrades and they are quite awesome scheme runners.