The Mystery of Miss Ann Thrope's Missing Pants

[Ferossa]

Isn't the term Orientlism also offensive to many people?

 

As an aside, how do you know none of the Samurai are Female? Would you be able to tell under all the armor, and does it matter? I always assumed at least one of them was.

 

Not trying to pick a fight, just interested.

 

Yup, it's an objectifying term that implies "the East" (and by extension it's people and cultures) exist to be consumed for Western pleasure. Misaki and the Last Blossom Teahouse use the sexist and colonialist assumptions to operate outside the notice of the Guild, and are themselves a colonising force in opposition to the European Guild. Like I said, it's masterful.

 

I agree re: the Samurai, but the point is we can't tell. Same reason I didn't include the Tengu. None of which have tits to mark them as GIRL mystical bird creatures, for which I am thankful.

[Mako]

I was going to stay out of this, but oh well...

I should start by saying I don't have a problem with sexualisation or nudity in games. Where it's appropriate. Colette's crew are a great example of it done well. And wyrd are doing better than most when it comes to that.

Then there's this piece, which feels like someone slipped for a moment. I honestly don't get why something that seems so heavily styled on a clockwork orange isn't wearing trousers that either don't quite reach the ankle or are tucked into her boots. It feels tacked on to make it more "feminine" (which I don't think is in any way the method to make things feminine).

I'm not going to sit here as someone not trying to run a gaming/miniatures company and knock wyrd for it, they try hard from what I've seen, and do pretty well all things considered. But I don't like the skirt, it's sexualisation that isn't in the right setting to my eyes.

In fact, ferossa - if you're at gencon and get one of these, I'll convert it to wear trousers for you if you want (I'll be there and will have tools to hand). Doesn't exactly fix the issue (I trust wyrd to work on that though in future, since they've said they will), but you get a female wastrel out of it at least, and something that shows what it could have been.

[TychoTerziev]

 First, I will say that I am not a big fan of oversexualization in games. That's the main reason I am reluctant to get the new Ronin. I know that the whole sisterhood theme is played quite well, but I still can't get over their sculpts. I  am also not a big fan of Nekima's two-piece swim suit. But compared to many miniature companies out there, Wyrd is fantastic in presenting strong female characters. Heck, yesterday I read the Kirai/Molly story in Crossroads and I found it heartbreaking. Compared to those two, the male Resser masters are quite cartoonish and one dimensional. Also, the idea behind the Cult of December can be seen as a (bit gruesome) metaphor for empowerment. But  did they went wrong with Thrope? I don't know, despite the mini skirt, I think that she looks quite badass. And although the world "wastrel" has a defined meaning, it leaves at least some room for interpretation and projecting our ideas.

 

I find the fact that there aren't many TT female minions quite interesting. Maybe it has something to do with the patriarchal tendencies in Asian culture, especially when it comes to warfare? And yet, TT includes leaders like Misaki and Mei Feng who are presented as strong and independent personas. And, of course, Yamaziko! She is not here to titillate some teenage boys. Yes, none of them are minions, but many of the TT units seem to belong to an organized army, rather than the ragtag groups that are most of the other crews. The Guild is structured like a police force, Arcanists are essentially Terrorists/Criminals, Ressers are connected only through their....hobby, Neverborn are interested only in causing bloodshed and Gremlins are...Gremlins. Only TT has some actual military units.This ,combined with the spirit with the era, can provide a possible explanation for the lack of many female  Ten Thunders minions. 

[mythicFOX]

While I wouldn't currently call the player base of any war game diverse I think Malifaux could certainly claim to being more diverse than most.  We all have a part to play in promoting that diversity; Wyrd, Moderators, Players, and forum users.  None of us are going to get it right all the time and these dialogues are important.

 

One of the things I like most about Malifaux is we have a forum community who can raise and discuss these things sensibly, and that as a result Wyrd feel able to publicly engage with and discuss the topic with the community directly.

 

Thanks for keeping things civil,  you're all awesome. 

[valhallan42nd]

Given that: a. Wastrels are essentially over privileged rich kids who tend toward the outrageous

b. This is a Miss Model, which is notably a pinup style model...

I have zero issue with this render. I intend to paint her like Imperator Furiosa,making the sexual nature of the model an ironic twist on the character's part.

While I understand Ferrossa's point, I do not entirely agree with it. And quite frankly, Wyrd gets feminism right more than it gets it wrong, and is striving to get better. There are far better targets in this industry for that sort of critique.

[CannibalBob]

Should we seek legislation to make wearing a mini-skirt illegal?

 

Please no.  I happen to quite enjoy mini-skirts.

[dancater]

I'll add my opinion for what its worth.

First the important context, I'm a man, I'm an old gamer and I've lived through the years of 'no girls at all are gamers' and gaming men as social pariahs to the populism of nerd/geek/comic/gaming culture. From Harry Potter to Game of Thrones and the Marvel goliath it is now at least not auto social outcast to understand gaming and comics (hell The Big Bang Theory has made it comedy chic). Now part of that is the inevitable problem where the 'old' gaming culture was made up of a lot of socially awkward boys and men who at the same time lusted after and idolised women while being abjectly terrified of them and passive aggressivley hostile. The new game culture..... well I hope it will be more inclusive, flexible and empowering for girls and boys alike, but it will not be an instant transition.

 

Now Ferossa I do not feel your pain, I cannot as a male gamer of 30 years I feel a different pain entirely, but I think I understand it and on the broad point I totally agree and sympathise. Unfortunately my gender is comprised of humans who evolved from anceastors who thought they could drag 'mates' to caves and battle giant hairy elephants with sharp sticks; thousands of years has not really improved our evolutionary logic as 'super model culture' advertising and lingere for 10 year olds while complaining that we over sexualise young girls clearly demonstrates. In short man as a mass gender is sadly prone to stupidity and short sighted nilihilism.

 

I am glad you are speaking out but I also hope you will be patient and understanding. Also I want to review some of your more direct points:

• The Missingno issue, was completely unaware of this until Justin explained it in his post, now I am aware of who Linda Lovelace was and her disturbing story. I can sympathise with Justin that he did not know this when the model was initially named, I agree it would be plain wrong to bring out a female model of any type with a name which could be connected to such a history. But the fact it does not look like it will happen should hopefully let the matter rest, mistakes can happen, and when corrected hopefully we can move on.
• Lust, this is a tough point, on the one hand... it's Lust pretty much being sexualised goes with the description. But I also totally understand your point that making it a her is trope, stereotype reinforcing, potentially insulting and disappointing to you and many others. A male Lust would have been nice, an androgynous Lust I think even better. But I also understand that the 'art is done' argument, hopefully when the model is released Wyrd make a real attempt to twist the image even if Lust is her.
• To the male/female ratio, honestly I think Malifaux is doing well here. Master wise women are well represented (its not 50/50 but its solid) with several masters which are pretty asexual to my eye (Ironsides and Sonnia promiently, I never considered either as really 'sexy'). In the non-master group its poorer but still not terrible. Body type is a tougher argument but then most of the men are not as it were the same body type as I'm guessing most male gamers have, lets face facts the violent Malifaux world would reward the physically fit, which I ain't, I certainly don't look anything like McCabe or Marcus I'll tell you that.
• Now the one that started it all off, the Miss Ann Thrope. The statement that a Wastrel would not dress such, here I disagree, wastrel's are neglected children who are an embarrassment to their parents and I can think of no better way than for a strapped into a whalebone corset staid 'young lady' to shock, horrify and embarrass her parents than to be theiving and mugging drooling idiot lordlings. My image is of the repressed young debutante who decides to live a life of petty (or non-petty) crime, indulgence and hedonism, almost reveling in her sexuality to the shame of her family while spitting in her social classes proverbial eye. So for me it fits, but I grant you it could have eqally been done a different way.
• The cosplay article, yeah now this I both totally agree with, it is horribly sexist and objectifying and to be honest I think it should not be celebrated but it is also (for both good and bad reasons) a real phenonena and very popular. Not sure what to do about that, same as I'm not sure what to do about the aforementioned super model culture but I'll freely admit to looking and being a sucker to buy the product advertised by the sexy women thus perpetuating an essentially unfair and toxic image.

Ferossa and those young ladies who support you, I hope you stay in the community, I hope you continue to speak out and try to make it more inclusinve and I hope you understand that many positve moves can still be mixed with occasional horrble errors and a lot of us are really trying.

 

And to my fellow men, do what I do, try not to look, drool and turn into morons around anyone with breasts; we are supposed to be rational, reasonable, enlightened and we want, I mean we really REALLY want as many women to play this game as we can get. I'm tired of sweaty, bearded, pasty skined cellar dwelling man-nerd domination of the hobby I love. Also please understand Ferossa's disappointment, frustration and anger that in a hobby she loves she faces some of the worst and most malignent gender stereotyping, we may not be the exact problem but I for one will try to support her calls for a solution.

 

Peace out and if you read this whole thing I thank you for your commitment.

[scarlett fever]

Thanks for the critique Ferossa, I really appreciate your input in the forum. It would be less of a place without it (seem to be a lot of penis posts and what she said jokes lately, school's out maybe?).

 

 

Yes. We actually have more women working at Wyrd than men.

 

Okay, sorry but where are they? Nathan, Justin, Aaron, not even sure there's a female moderator? What roles do the women have in your team?

Just curious.

 

This is a white male dominated hobby and that's just how it is. That's truth is all.

It'll be great when that changes but it'll take time, I look forward to a wargaming future of inclusion and diversity

 

I still love and will buy Wyrd models, I believe they're doing much better job than most, but practical trousers and a greater range of female bodytypes would be awesome

[AuroraZ]

This is gonna be a long one, and I apologize for the wall of text in advance.

 

First of all, I want to make one thing very clear: I freaking love Malifaux.  The flavor of the setting attracted me to it, painting the models got me invested, and the card-based gameplay cemented my love for the game.  I am proud to be a henchman and I love the involvement in the community I feel when I run demos or other events.  I have never, ever felt like Wyrd, as a company, was wasting my time by actively trying to make females feel excluded, with the excuse, “well they’re not our target market,” or, “why pander to SJWs and females when they don’t buy into the game in the first place?” (which, speaking as a female, I do feel happens with certain game companies.)

That being said, OF COURSE I experience sexism in the gaming community.  I hate that it is a given, and I hope one day it won’t be, but the gaming community as a whole still has a long way to go.  Whether it be the snide comment from onlookers when I’m teaching a guy how to play, “so are you letting her win?” (had that happen more than once…), or if it’s the design of certain models from my favorite gaming company.

 

The root of a lot of the reactions coming from women concerning model design comes from representation.  Curious as to how females and males are represented in the game as a whole, I went to the pull my finger wiki to whip up a really quick (I mean REALLY quick) spreadsheet to see what the spread of representation is.  Here’s a summary of what I found:

(Quick note before I get too much into it: like I said, this was a really quick project, and a lot of the organization is done on a fairly subjective basis.  I can almost guarantee that at some point I miscounted or mischaracterized models.  I tried to organize the clearly female and clearly male models separate from the constructs/monster/unknown gender or genderless models as best I could. This project also only included models up through wave 2.  I’m also not including alternate models in the count, such as the Miss series - I want to only count models that customers will see on the shelves of their LGS.)

 

MASTERS

This, of course, is where Malifaux shines compared to other miniatures companies.  Of all the masters available, 21 are male and 18 are female.  Not a perfect 50/50, but pretty darn close.  I’m not going to argue sexism here, especially when, for the most part, females are dressed appropriately for their station.  Colette is dressed like a showgirl, Mei Feng is dressed like a woman that works in high-temperature environments, Sonnia dresses like a law enforcement officer, etc.  (Aurora’s side thoughts: SO glad Lilith found a pair of pants and that Lady J got breast reduction surgery upon entering 2e.  Seriously, boobs of that size cause major back problems, which can be a problem when wielding a sword around the way she does.)

 

HENCHMEN

This is where there starts to be a noticeable gap.  Not including Snowstorm, Bad Juju, and Huggy as their genders can be argued (though I almost always hear people defaulting to male), I counted 26 male and 19 female henchmen.    This is also where body types tend to be more widely varied among the males, and less so among the females.  Captain Dashel, Sebastian, and Mortimer don’t fit the “ideal” or “average” male body type, and that’s a good thing!  Kang is a really big guy, while The Firestarter looks like he’d be really slippery and quick on his feet in a fight.  Awesome!  This gives all male gamers a chance to identify with a character and experience the power fantasy that so many gamers are looking for when approaching a game like this.

 

When you look at the female henchmen… it’s a bit disappointing.  Myranda, Cassandra, Hannah, Alyce, Taelor… they all look the same.  All the other female henchman have body types that match their flavor: Candy is a little girl (PLEASE don’t sexualize her!), Sybelle is DEAD and boy howdy, death has not been kind to her, Ama No Zako is a straight up demon, etc.  It’s really, REALLY cool that Wyrd has worked so hard to match the model design to the flavor, but what about the female power fantasy?  Are young to middle-aged women who are 5’10” and 185 pounds not allowed to have one?  This is what Ferrosa is talking about when mentioning being more inclusive in the design of female models - not every woman is going to relate to Cassandra, or Hannah, or the others mentioned, and NO woman is going to relate to Madame Sybelle.  Not unless they’re dead. 

 

ENFORCERS

(aka, where Aurora goes “YIKES”)

Imma keep it short: there are more male enforcers than there are female enforcers and constructs/beasts combined.  There’s a handful of multi-model enforcer boxes: the only female among those models is a single Oxfordian Mage.

This is also where a noticeable trend starts to happen: most female enforcers are female because it fits in better with the fluff - and it feels gimmicky.  All of Raspy’s themed models are female, so if it fits in with the December theme, sure, make it female.  But if it doesn’t fit a theme, it seems to default to male - why are both the desperate mercenaries male?  Why do 3 of the 4 Riders look very distinctly male?  Why not split it half-and-half?  How cool would it have been to have a female lone rifleman - come on, pretty cool, right?  But no, also male.

 

MINIONS

At this point almost all models that are female are gendered that way because they “have” to be, whether it's part of a master's theme or because of traditional gender roles:  Nurses, Ronin, Beckoners, Performers, etc.  Most groups of non-construct, non-monstrous or beast minions are all-male, outnumbering females 2:1, and again I have to ask: why?  Why, based off of the models already released, or the art we’ve seen so far, are so many boxes all male?  Why are all the TT monks male?  What was preventing the designers from having one male and one female guild lawyer?  Or two female death marshals and one male?

 

And, actually, that last question brings up another interesting observation I had: if there are groups of three minions in a box (such as The Illuminated), if they’re not all female or all male, the mix is 2 males to 1 female.  Every.  Single.  Time. 

 

Now, here’s where I will throw this disclaimer out: there are a few minion boxes we haven’t seen yet, and it’s hard to tell what they will look like based off of the art from the arsenal decks because a lot of them are the same art, just zoomed in or mirrored.  So we don’t really know if there are going to be female guild autopsies, or drowned, or rat catchers (so I didn’t count them in my spreadsheet), and it looks like the exorcists are going to all be male (hopefully they’re not!) but based off the trends I’ve noticed, they’re very likely going to be all-male. 

 

WHY MISS ANN THROPE FEELS LIKE A PROBLEM

(Sheesh, this is turning into an essay, isn’t it?)

When addressing why Miss Ann Thrope feels so sexist, it’s important to take all of the above into account: what is the overall balance of female to male models, and how much variety with body types, abilities, and interests is there?  If a female player enjoys the idea of taming and training a bird of prey, is there a female austringer model out there that she feels represents her interest?  Is there a female model out there that shows larger women that they CAN hold positions of power and respect, while still looking attractive?

 

When it comes down to it, the argument (or, at least, my argument) is not about this one single model.  In the art shown in the Chronicles, she’s not posed in a way that objectifies her - she looks ready to kick your ass if you look at her the wrong way, and she won’t even think twice about it.  As for her outfit - no, most women don’t dress like that.  Some do, and they like the way they feel when they dress like that, and to them I say: more power to you!  You do you.  But a good majority of women, in preparation to go hand out a few black eyes and broken ribs while still looking like a statused member of society, will go for the fitted blouse, sans the movement-restricting corset, and some tailored pants either hemmed so they don’t step on them or tucked into some boots (as Mako mentioned).

 

No, the real argument - the real question - is, “Really?  More of this?”  When I, as a female gamer, look at a model and the first thing I notice is, “look at the length of that skirt and the size of that chest!” it takes away from the flavor and empowerment I would otherwise feel about said model, and I also know that every male gamer is going to notice the same thing, and will likely be tempted to objectify her as a sex object for it.  Personally, I don’t mind the idea of pinup-style models.  I’m not going to demand that Wyrd not give her out at Gencon, and I’m not going to ask for models that are dressed like pilgrims.  BUT - and this is a big one - pinup-style models are only going to work if the rest of the female representation does NOT always cater to the male gaze.  Wyrd’s done a really, REALLY good job of making almost all their female models dressed and posed in ways that are empowering for females, but the fact of the matter is that they’re still all proportioned to the same male ideal - large chest, trim waist, just curvy enough to be distinctly female but not, you know, chubby.  They’re also extremely outnumbered by men, and minions are almost all relegated to traditionally female roles.  The message, while I know it’s not intentional, is, “this is your place, and this is how you should look.  When it’s not conventional - like with the wastrels - you’re unique because you’re sexy.”

 

Whew.  This is long.  Apologies, and if you’ve read this - congratulations!  +3 friend points for you.

[Dirial]

[all of it]

 

Good post. Makes the issues clear without pointing fingers. Your approach made the issue very relateable for me as as a man, and if we're serious, men not being able to relate to the problem and thus dismissing it, is the core obstacle for a bilateral approach to gender issues.

 

As one of the people who wanted a male Lust, I approve of your recommendations for future models. Wyrd, I'd buy the hell out of female Mounted Guard, for example, especially if she didn't look pin-up style.

 

(If the Miss models are meant to be cheesy and pin-up style for ridicule reasons, which I would be okay with in general, I also propose a male series. Sir Prize was mentioned....)

[Victoria]

I suppose I will never understand the plight of the female gamer until I experience it. I have been involved deeply with the Malifaux community only, and I have never felt that I have been treated differently in any way, whatsoever. Unless it was to feel welcomed into a community - but hopefully males experience that, too.

 

Nor have I ever had a problem with a single model that Wyrd has produced, in regards to feeling it was inappropriately sexualized. Moreover, I can't imagine something that WAS "sexualized" (Something in my opinion, subjective) making me feel uncomfortable or unwelcome. Nor do I care if the models have my body type or not - it doesn't make me feel less empowered as a woman.

 

Personally, I love the new Miss model. She looks like a punk badass. Thats also why I love the Viks so much. Never considered her skirt length, or any model's boob size, and I probably won't in the future.

 

I just wanted to speak up as a female who doesn't feel threatened by these sorts of things. We exist, too.

[MasterDisaster]

Wow, some people really take this game way too seriously, chillax guys. It's just plastic!

 

It's a model, buy it or don't, just get over it. No need to apply political or social ethics to it. If you like it that's fine. I don't have a problem with it, if you don't like it then don't buy it. At the end of the day this is a game designed to have fun. If you're not enjoying it because you're too busy analyzing the social or ethical implications of it's models then perhaps it's time for you to move on. Simples

 

Good luck mods!

[Dirial]

Wow, some people really take this game way too seriously, chillax guys. It's just plastic!

 

It's a model, buy it or don't, just get over it. No need to apply political or social ethics to it. If you like it that's fine. I don't have a problem with it, if you don't like it then don't buy it. At the end of the day this is a game designed to have fun. If you're not enjoying it because you're too busy analyzing the social or ethical implications of it's models then perhaps it's time for you to move on. Simples

 

Good luck mods!

 

I don't agree, MD. How we choose to have fun, and whom we try to include/exclude, says a lot about us and our society. Get over it! is only good advice for the currently privileged, as it means upholding the status quo.

 

Of course it's just a game, and there are more important issues. But issues are issues, and sometimes it needs the small steps to change a mindset.

[Aluwin]

I'm a fairly rare poster but for some reason felt the need to chime in on this.  Perhaps its because I recently got married and am working on the whole kid thing so I'm going through a lot of sympathy emotions with my wife right now.

 

In any case, I've grown up with 2 strong grandmothers, a very strong mother, several aunts and two strong sisters so I like to think I have a good perspective coming from some a female dominated family.  However, I'll also be the first to admit I quite enjoy the sexual nature of females that I'm not related to(and of course only my wife  ).

 

So since I'm quite bored at work now I took a look at all the available m2e sculpts in the webstore.  Counted about 276 unique models.  Of those, anywhere from 1/2 - 2/3 are gender neutral(constructs/animals/etc.)  Of the ~100 or so that are left I counted 55 females.

 

Of those I would consider 22 non-sexualized, 16 of average sexuality, and 17 that would make me uncomfortable if I saw one of my sisters dressed like that.

 

In my opinion that that last category was Nurses, Bells, Beckoners, Doppleganger, Nekima, Ronin, Vicktorias, Waifs.  Even if you add some of the other upcoming models I would still consider that a pretty good spread that represents a wide variety of women in terms of look and dress and I think just as it would be ridiculous to have all the models be completely over the top, it would also be inappropriate to not represent that subset of the culture, particularly where its appropriate to the model itself.

 

Now certainly I would admit that the size of the female models is definitely skewed towards the thin end of the spectrum and probably is an opportunity for some more diversity, but to be fair the scale of the game and the art style and the time period(in other words not modern day overweight america) I do believe would make that more difficult as many figures wouldn't quite look right...though not impossible and certainly something that could get some attention.

 

Anyway, my two cents.

[r4st4f4n]

This is gonna be a long one, and I apologize for the wall of text in advance.

 

First of all, I want to make one thing very clear: I freaking love Malifaux.  The flavor of the setting attracted me to it, painting the models got me invested, and the card-based gameplay cemented my love for the game.  I am proud to be a henchman and I love the involvement in the community I feel when I run demos or other events.  I have never, ever felt like Wyrd, as a company, was wasting my time by actively trying to make females feel excluded, with the excuse, “well they’re not our target market,” or, “why pander to SJWs and females when they don’t buy into the game in the first place?” (which, speaking as a female, I do feel happens with certain game companies.)

That being said, OF COURSE I experience sexism in the gaming community.  I hate that it is a given, and I hope one day it won’t be, but the gaming community as a whole still has a long way to go.  Whether it be the snide comment from onlookers when I’m teaching a guy how to play, “so are you letting her win?” (had that happen more than once…), or if it’s the design of certain models from my favorite gaming company.

 

The root of a lot of the reactions coming from women concerning model design comes from representation.  Curious as to how females and males are represented in the game as a whole, I went to the pull my finger wiki to whip up a really quick (I mean REALLY quick) spreadsheet to see what the spread of representation is.  Here’s a summary of what I found:

(Quick note before I get too much into it: like I said, this was a really quick project, and a lot of the organization is done on a fairly subjective basis.  I can almost guarantee that at some point I miscounted or mischaracterized models.  I tried to organize the clearly female and clearly male models separate from the constructs/monster/unknown gender or genderless models as best I could. This project also only included models up through wave 2.  I’m also not including alternate models in the count, such as the Miss series - I want to only count models that customers will see on the shelves of their LGS.)

 

MASTERS

...

 

HENCHMEN

...

 

When you look at the female henchmen… it’s a bit disappointing.  Myranda, Cassandra, Hannah, Alyce, Taelor… they all look the same.  All the other female henchman have body types that match their flavor: Candy is a little girl (PLEASE don’t sexualize her!), Sybelle is DEAD and boy howdy, death has not been kind to her, Ama No Zako is a straight up demon, etc.  It’s really, REALLY cool that Wyrd has worked so hard to match the model design to the flavor, but what about the female power fantasy?  Are young to middle-aged women who are 5’10” and 185 pounds not allowed to have one?  This is what Ferrosa is talking about when mentioning being more inclusive in the design of female models - not every woman is going to relate to Cassandra, or Hannah, or the others mentioned, and NO woman is going to relate to Madame Sybelle.  Not unless they’re dead.

 

ENFORCERS

...

 

MINIONS

...

 

...

...

 

Pretending a precise 50:50 male:female ratio in every possible ideal fraction you can isolate from the total range looks kinda compulsive, rather than reasonable O.o

The real world doesn't work like that! The DNA has 50:50 gender possibility, but then it goes random! Some families have got 5 females and one male or viceversa, some countries have more male inhabitants, some more female. Will they need correction?

Also, at which point of the production do you sign a clause which says you'll be bound to produce a representation of each existent human type, so that every existent human type will be able to strictly relate to one of your characters? Seriously?

http://m.moviewavs.com/0053148414/MP3S/Movies/Simpsons_Movie/toughguys.mp3

 

[Dirial]

Also, at which point of the production do you sign a clause which says you'll be bound to produce a representation of each existent human type, so that every existent human type will be able to strictly relate to one of your characters? Seriously?

 

That isn't even close to what she said. I'm no fan of hyperbole.

[edonil]

It has nothing to do with a contract being signed. It is merely a comment and a request on the fact that the range has a greater diversity in male characters and how they look than it does with female characters. Not sure I can see why that's an issue to be annoyed at. In particular, though, that kind of arguing is one that comes from a perspective of privilege. Look up some time the reaction of Whoopi Goldberg to the character of Uhara in the first Star Trek. Seeing a black woman in media who wasn't a maid or a servant was incredibly empowering to her. And that's a story I hear time and again in a lot of different situations, when I'm talking to friends who are women, or gay, or minority. It is a repeated refrain, just one that gets ignored a lot.

[trikk]

@Ten Thunders

You missed Yamaziko in the TT female list.

 

Now I`m not a woman so I will not know how you feel, and you can have your own opinion on Miss Ann Thrope but I`d like to point out atypical female characters:

 

We have Ironsides, Zoraida , Perdita, Sonnia Criid, Mah Tucket, Madame Sybelle, Sammy Lacroix (maybe?) Yamaziko, Abuela Ortega, Molly, Mei Feng, Johanna, Nanny. Crooligan Girl, Guild Guard female. All of those are IMO not sexualised. 

 

What I would be more worried about is lack of strong, independent and smart female characters, but there are tons of those in Malifaux. 

 

That being said I`d love a Female Death Marshal (Not Miss Tenious but a more default one)/Lone Marshal and in that I can agree but I believe you are a bit overzealous for a right cause.

[dgraz]

I think the female/male ratio is horribly skewed. 

 

It's incredibly unrealistic for the time period that the game is set in. In the 1850's women had very little rights, spent most of their time being pregnant and raising children, their husbands controlled everything...and if they weren't doing that they were looked down upon. It was the extremely rare woman that any kind of real power...especially over men.

[mythicFOX]

<modhat>

I removed some sarcasm and other inappropriate comments.

Do not make me get my mod stick.

</modhat>

[r4st4f4n]

It has nothing to do with a contract being signed. It is merely a comment and a request on the fact that the range has a greater diversity in male characters and how they look than it does with female characters. Not sure I can see why that's an issue to be annoyed at. In particular, though, that kind of arguing is one that comes from a perspective of privilege. Look up some time the reaction of Whoopi Goldberg to the character of Uhara in the first Star Trek. Seeing a black woman in media who wasn't a maid or a servant was incredibly empowering to her. And that's a story I hear time and again in a lot of different situations, when I'm talking to friends who are women, or gay, or minority. It is a repeated refrain, just one that gets ignored a lot.

I couldn't agree more!

It's just that this thread is not "It'd be cool to see a middle age, not perfectly fit female character too", but instead "Miss Ann Trophes looks sexist because... And the fact you produced her instead of a middle age, not perfectly fit female character is wrong, change this thing".

These two approaches are very different from each other. I just think it's Wyrd's right to differentiate their minis, without being based on a constant threat of sexism charges every time there is the slightest possibility to fit one.

The sexism argument is much more severe than the pure aesthetic preferences, it shouldn't be abused. And - I add- expecially not against Wyrd which, IMO, doesn't deserve such accusations at all.

[Uktena]

I think the model looks good! I'm in the camp where a model like this is just harmless fun. I don't see myself picking it up, I mean - it's still a Wastrel. I'm ok with beef/cheesecake, Wyrd. I don't look to tabletop wargames to inform my social behaviour or tolerances and I don't really feel obligated to project mine onto the models I build and paint. I don't feel more or less respected/respectful by/towards other people because of how the models are depicted.

[Ferossa]

I think the female/male ratio is horribly skewed. 

 

It's incredibly unrealistic for the time period that the game is set in. In the 1850's women had very little rights, spent most of their time being pregnant and raising children, their husbands controlled everything...and if they weren't doing that they were looked down upon. It was the extremely rare woman that any kind of real power...especially over men.

 

That's actually very historically inaccurate, and only somewhat accurate within a tiny subsection of the European population. Most women worked dawn to dusk doing all the same work men did, and if the patriarch died, it was up to one of the daughters in the family to assume his position. You may be familiar with this custom, as it's how Emily Brontë became head of her family. She even inherited her father's shotgun because she was the only accomplished marksman in the family.

 

Magazines from this time period are littered with advice to treat women with care and respect because they are not the stupid brainless objects that men think they are, and they have thoughts and opinions and if you want to have a successful business/make a good match/live comfortably and well you should listen to women. It's only a tiny minority of insecure, pathetic men who have ever thought otherwise and tried in vain to convince the rest of the world.

 

While we're talking, here's a brief history of cross-dressing. It was a crime because until recently, clothing was all people looked at when determining gender. As long as women didn't get pregnant and kept their shirts on, they could work as men and nobody was ever the wiser. When your options are starving, the workhouse, or becoming a navvy, you sell your skirts and buy a sledgehammer. This is a recent archaeological discovery, as we've started sexing the skeletons inside graves instead of stereotyping gender by grave goods. Thus far at least 1/3 of mercenaries throughout history have been women, and the numbers may be higher.

 

And finally: the Breach is historically inaccurate. Magic is historically inaccurate. A man who dies and comes back to life over and over is historically inaccurate. A five hundred year old woman is historically inaccurate. Why does historical accuracy only matter when it's an excuse for less representation?

[Lucidicide]

Hi, my name is Aaron, and I'm locking the thread.

 

I'm locking it for the same reason that I lock most threads -- I feel that both sides of an issue have had a chance to voice their concerns and opinions, and that further discussion will not be productive or constructive.

 

This is not, and I cannot stress that enough, it is not an attempt to silence anyone's opinions or dismiss their experiences. As I've stated before (and in many places), I greatly value feedback of all kinds. I want it to continue. But at this point, the feedback on Malifaux and its models is transitioning into something else (and that's fine, there are better places for that than the Malifaux Discussion forum).

 

I'd like to take a minute here to thank everyone who participated in the thread civilly and productively. I think that any discussion of discrimination (in this case, sexism) is a difficult one. There are so many possible threads of discussion and ways the conversation can go, that finding enough common ground to have a discussion can be rife with pitfalls.

 

The thread may be locked, but that doesn't mean the discussion is done. It just means that the time for public discussion is over, as it seems people have weighed in with their views and opinions.

 

Again, thank you to everyone who participated. Please, never stop giving us feedback as a company. Sometimes, threads need to be locked for community health, but that doesn't mean we're unhappy with them starting or the discussions that took place.

 

Thanks for your understanding. Go enjoy other threads!