Scouting Opponent Crews

[Ausplosions]

Yeah, the "peek into a bag" comment sold me.

You are the sort of player a Tourney doesn't need.

[Icemyn]

Yeah I understand deduction like he declared outcasts and Hamelin is worse than the Viks in Reckoning.

 

What you are suggesting there is disingenuous and practically cheating. 

[SpectreEliteGaming]

It's fine, I don't mind.

I'm not skulking around in the shadows lifting up the lid to look in the bag when others aren't looking - I'm saying that say you are at adepticon and you are wandering around checking out pick-up games: What are the people playing and if their bag is open, what's in it. A lot of people are nice enough to pretty much just talk about their stuff - hobby pride and all that... there's no reason to not take advantage of this knowledge. It's war games boys and girls - not playground games...

... besides the best part about it is that your opponents might not know you did it - you just keep it to yourself and make a mental note. How can you just willfully handicap yoursef knowing that your opponent only brought Marcus?

Here's an example... Cheatedfates Joe just said on his most recent podcast that he is painting up Neverborn and he's bringing it to adepticon. He has access to Lucius, Zoraida, Dreamer, and Pandora. He said himsef that he really likes Pandora and isn't good at Lucius and is moving away from Lucius. I also know he has the most experience with Dreamer and just started Zoraida. So I can deduce that he will likely take dreamer or pandora when it counts and the strategy/scheme composition should give an idea of the rest. Sooooo.... playing Outcasts with high WP and some movement effects would be a good idea, and so on...

Kind of a general example because I don't know what the strat/schemes is and are we playing a casual/competitive game or a fun game or whatever. Of course, if he were to play a "fun" game and take whatever he felt like chances are he'd be handicapping himself in both mindset and optimization.

I consider this to be using an advantage, definently not cheating. In my games I put so much importance on pre-game set up that I have a good idea of what to expect as soon as the game begins. The game for me is list building and total optimization... then you just play it out.

Welcome to competitive play

[daniello_s]

Welcome to competitive play

Welcome to the slippery slide...

When competitiveness kills the fun.

Been there, done that - no, thanks.

[Trinecity]

Trying to deduce what your opponent will bring is fun and legal.  But peeking in bags is not really my cup of tea, nor is it really that reliable.  Someone could always be baiting you into countering a certain master by flashing the models, then handing you his crew cards and they don't match the models.  That would be one of those GOTCHA! moments.  

 

As I've been playing more, I've been leaning towards safer, more universal crews.  Countering a certain master is putting too many eggs in one basket for me.  But I do agree with you Spectre in that list building is half the fun of this game.

[Dafty]

... besides the best part about it is that your opponents might not know you did it - you just keep it to yourself and make a mental note. How can you just willfully handicap yoursef knowing that your opponent only brought Marcus?

 Cause in a fair and balenced world the only knowledge you should have is that he is Playing Arcanists. and then you build your crew to strategies and schemes. not having the for knowledge that your opponent only has Marcus. Its not a willful handicap, its trying to act....Honorably. Dont get me wrong if some one was walking around saying they are the best marcus player around and always wins playing marcus and Marcus marcus marcus. then sure at that point you have every right to bring an i hate marcus list.

 

 

Welcome to competitive play

 

what i garnered from the other thread is that Icemyn Won the Avatar last year with levy. which seems to sparked this "Mech Ryler" Phenomenon. So i think he knows how to play competitively. so

 

@icemyn Peak in anyones bags? Wander around noting who was playing what? and then decided that your generic list of "Mech Ryler" would just win you the tournament?

[Icemyn]

One of my favorite tactics is to pick up high cards out of my graveyard while my opponent isn't looking and discard lower ones out of my hand. Since I am not actually going up in cards it's not really cheating. It's not like I am skulking around in the shadows stabbing people as they walk by, but that would be totally cool because these are WAR games not playground games.

 

... besides the best part about it is that your opponents might not know you did it - did you draw the cards from your deck and discard or are you just super lucky? How can you just willfully handicap yourself knowing that your opponent isn't paying attention?

 

Here's an example sometimes when I'm measuring Ill do it really badly and move my model an extra 2 or 3", I mean once it's moved how can they prove where it was? I randomly knock my models over and stand them back up in different places, accidents amirite?

 

I consider this to be using an advantage, definitely not cheating. In my games I put so much importance on pre-game set up that what happens in the game doesn't matter. The game for me is list building and total optimization... then you just play it out in your heads why bother actually getting models out?

 

Welcome to High Level Tournament play.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

@Icemyn - I don't feel those are comparable examples at all - my deductions occur outside of the game, before the game occurs, or in regards to other people's games. Your examples are obvious cheating - in game I measure as accurately as possible, walk my opponent through what it is that I am doing and ask if that is alright with him. I don't telling them info if they don't ask for it but I do what is expected. You are essentially using my words as a copypasta to paint a very unfair picture of me. I've never said any of those things, and they are just plain ridiculous.

Interesting statements, none the less, for such an "honorable" player to make.. :/

[moxypoo]

I was going to stay out of this thread, but I don’t think Specter deserves a lot of the flak that he’s getting.  Using an analogy, I’m hoping to put some things into perspective.

 

Has anyone here played competitive sports at a high level?  The kinds of things Specter mentions are rampant and expected in high level athletic competition.  For example, baseball pitchers watch videos of potential opponents’ batting to identify weaknesses they can exploit.  Martial artists watch other fighters during a tournament to find patterns and preferences they can use against these opponents.  American football teams watch video of other teams’ plays so they go into a game with an idea of what to expect from their opponents.  One feature all these examples have in common is that they’re using publically available information to gain knowledge about the opposition.

 

Compare this to what Specter has been talking about.  If you’re at a Malifaux tournament, you can watch other matches to determine a player’s preferences and gain insight into what masters or types of crew s/he likes.  I’ve found that a lot of people will enjoy talking about their tactics or even favorite master.  You see where I’m going with this – using publically available information to gain an advantage is common in all forms of competition.

 

Now, you can certainly argue whether these examples are sportsmanlike, but you cannot say that they’re cheating.  Therefore, I think a lot of the comparisons and implications made in this thread are unfair.

[zFiend]

Welcome to the slippery slide...

When competitiveness kills the fun.

Been there, done that - no, thanks.

Gotta agree here.

[scarlett fever]

Whilst I can't imagine using these tactics, I just don't think I'm that competitive, I do value the dialogue that Spectre brings to the forum. Like Moxy mentions these are all valid tactics in a top sports level If you're going to be highly competitive.

The sportmanship is dubious but it's not cheating.

 

On the other hand if I had to play in that environment I'm not sure I would find it fun, I might look for games elsewhere.

[Bengt]

I don't think it's cheating to research your opponents at a tournament. But the way Spectre describes his activities... he makes it sound so sordid.

[brdparker]

Never been to an official tournament outside of the local ones, but I could see using that sort of knowledge. Though, I will say that if I had access to the knowledge of which master my opponent was using, I'd balance it out by saying "I generally use Marcus or Ironsides... kinda been wanting to break Raspy out for a while now, lemme see what my mood is." That's in friendly play, but I don't think I'd go too far out of my way to hide the crews I have in an official setting either. Let the players with good eyes have their advantage. I'll count cards, thank you much, as that's my "sneaky" skill

 

(Mind you, saying I play Marcus doesn't really reveal too much, as I have about 7 different "standard" Marcus crew templates I could choose from)

[Adran]

About the "not knowing which master you will be playing" - I don't see how people can say this. There are so many ways of deducing what you're opponent will take out that I just don't see how you can't know. Whether its loose lips or peaking inside someone's bag during a walk around or just previous knowledge from pick up games on previous days of the tournament or what have you - you should know or you're not paying attention (willful blindness perhaps?). I don't want to undermine my own powers of deduction... but really its the little things. Did your opponent bring a bag big enough for multiple masters, whats his faction/what's on his tray and of course - what would you play if you were your opponent. Even at tournaments people are not that secretive and travelling normally means its unlikely that they will bring everyhing they have unless they show up with a Hordes bag. Add complacency to that after a long day of wargaming and you will see some consistent gameplay choices. I'm not saying to tool up completely towards a single match up - just make sure that if that match up occurs you have an answer and hopefully a good one. You should know what your good and bad matchups are and adjust accordingly (at least considering your "worst" matchup). While waiting for your opponent to go, look around and see what else is going on and make some mental notes, etc.

 

I think I might be your worst enemy.

I don't know what master I'm taking when I walk up to the table. You can know the contents of my bag all you want, but it won't help you. You can look at my previous gaming history, and I'm pretty sure it won't help you. Even in a fixed master tournement you probably haven't got a clue as to what my list will look like (because I don't generally know). I'm certainly not a beliver in "standard" lists.

 

yes, I like to know what my opponet has availible, and what they have played before. I don't generally go as far as looking in their bag, but I probably generally have a good knowledge of what they have used so far. Its not cheating, and I don't think its particually un sportsman like to try and work out from what you know they have previously done. Public knowledge is public klnowledge, feel free to use it. Spying is taking it too far. (by which I mean makign an effort to obtain non-public information such as routing through a players bag, not just walking past and seeing the lid open) Not sayign you do spy, at least by my definiiton, just thats where I think is too far.

[Dafty]

Maybe i shouldn't have asked Icemyn if he looked in people bags apparently Competitive play is stabbing all the opponents so you win by default   I get that is is tongue and cheek and how quickly "Scouting the field" can turn into information.

 

Welcome to the slippery slide...
When competitiveness kills the fun.
Been there, done that - no, thanks.

 

But this is very true also. Game is supposed to be fun and Enjoyable. Even when losing. if your opponent knows you only have Raspy and the Brings nix with hollow in a viks list you might feel a little slighted. since Arcanists are not known for all the blasts and nix with hollow in viks list seems out of place.  So you could see Where people might have and issue with Hyper-competiveness that you are bringing to the table. I have never faced you and maybe you are a great guy but the Snapshot picture that we got is and Was "I peek in Bags"  Which Shines a very poor light upon you.  In some peoples minds what you are doing is the same thing as what icemyn posted (not to the extreme as Stabbing people) but just feeling like "That is Wrong".

 

Side Note I hope To see You at Adepticon. I Think i would actually enjoy playing you. Bring that "A" Game i plan on winning. Doubt i will. But i plan on it.

[Icemyn]

@Icemyn - I don't feel those are comparable examples at all - my deductions occur outside of the game, before the game occurs, or in regards to other people's games. Your examples are obvious cheating - in game I measure as accurately as possible, walk my opponent through what it is that I am doing and ask if that is alright with him. I don't telling them info if they don't ask for it but I do what is expected. You are essentially using my words as a copypasta to paint a very unfair picture of me. I've never said any of those things, and they are just plain ridiculous.

Interesting statements, none the less, for such an "honorable" player to make.. :/

 

It seems like you at first understand all of my statements are an obvious over the top parody of what you stated, but then you forget that and assume that what I am saying is factual. Certainly an interesting path to take. 

 

The problem I and other people have with your approach is the slippery slope aspect of it, where is it too much? Comparing it to major sports isn't a great analogy either as most people will tell you the "clever" interpretations of the rules while technically legal represent an unfair advantage to those using them. So now everyone has to just shy of cheat so they are on a level playing field? I find that logic problematic. That's how you get doping scandals.

 

You mention that "the game for you is list building and optimization" and I have nothing but respect for that. Is it really an optimized list though if it's optimized for your possible opponent and not the strategy and schemes? If you bring blasts because you are optimizing for collodi and he doesn't bring collodi, have you really optimized?

 

For the record, scouting is fine, talking to your possible opponents to glean information is totally fine.

Looking into to people bags to gain information that you should not have is not fine. 

Obviously, I enjoy the competitive side of the game and have no problem with people being competitive, but there has to be a line. 

[Math Mathonwy]

Stuff like asking to see someone's minis in order to pretend to appreciate the paintjobs while "secretly" gathering intel for that extra edge? Wow.

And the comparison to pro sports? Seriously? Minis gamins is a hobby, not a job. No one's livelihood hangs in balance in a tournament. Also, the hobby aspect is huge. People spend a lot of time painting their minis and they like to play with pretty things. All that Sirlin stuff really doesn't apply.

People care about the visuals. People care about the minis and the terrains. People care about fluff and the story. People want to enjoy themselves and the top prize is a $50 box of minis and bragging rights that extend to a hundred or so individuals whose actual increase in respect towards you is mostly about how you conduct yourself. Welcome to competitive wargaming.

[moxypoo]

And the comparison to pro sports? Seriously? Minis gamins is a hobby, not a job. No one's livelihood hangs in balance in a tournament. Also, the hobby aspect is huge. People spend a lot of time painting their minis and they like to play with pretty things. All that Sirlin stuff really doesn't apply.

Doesn't have to be pro sports.

 

My high school baseball and basketball teams did the same thing. Even the most recreational martial artists I trained with did this. The comparison was made to highlight the fact that competition often includes things that Specter pointed out.  I understand that mini-wargaming is a hobby, but a tournament is inherently a competitive environment where the goal is to win. 

 

Like I said, you don't have to like it; you don't have to think it's sportsmanlike; but it does happen, and it isn't cheating.  For example, what if I see a beautifully painted Lady J crew, and i genuinely want to admire it and learn about the techniques used to paint it.  It's a bad thing that I match the guy/girl with the awesome crew in my head for future reference?

[Icemyn]

Like I said, you don't have to like it; you don't have to think it's sportsmanlike; but it does happen, and it isn't cheating.  For example, what if I see a beautifully painted Lady J crew, and i genuinely want to admire it and learn about the techniques used to paint it.  It's a bad thing that I match the guy/girl with the awesome crew in my head for future reference?

 

I have alot of respect for your opinions and contributions in general Moxy, but this isn't one I can get behind. This is misrepresentation of our stance. 

 

Talking to someone and admiring their paint work is a great part of the hobby, and remembering the person because of it is also a good thing. That is not the same thing as talking to someone and having them show you their models for personal gain. 

[Math Mathonwy]

This reminds of this one story of the early MtG. Early on, you weren't allowed to use protective shields in tournaments and there were no limits on how many of the same card you could have in your deck. There was this really cheap card that forced the other player to shuffle their deck.

If a player wasn't satisfied in how the other one shuffled, they were allowed to shuffle the opponent's deck.

Now, the tactic was to load your deck with nothing but these shuffle cards. You took your opponents deck and mashed the cards together shuffling it with brutal force marring all the expensive cards. Then you gave the deck back and asked whether your opponent would concede. If they didn't, you play another shuffle card and mash their deck even harder. And ask them to concede. And so on.

Now, whether this tale is apocryphal or not (I heard it told as something that really happened, but it does sound like something that would get you punched, so I really doubt anyone actually did it) but it might highlight why something that is allowed by the rules isn't necessarily a thing that should be done.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Split off topic from discussion of Salvage and Logistics box.

[asrian]

Not that I ever play tournaments, but I would enjoy someone to scout my bag...it contains every model in Neverborn in it. Good luck.

[moxypoo]

I have alot of respect for your opinions and contributions in general Moxy, but this isn't one I can get behind. This is misrepresentation of our stance. 

 

Talking to someone and admiring their paint work is a great part of the hobby, and remembering the person because of it is also a good thing. That is not the same thing as talking to someone and having them show you their models for personal gain. 

Thank you for the kind words Icemyn; I can say the same for you.

 

You do bring up a good point, and I may have been misunderstanding your stance.  When you say it like that, I do agree with you.

[zeeblee]

I'll actually point to a sport where nearly all of the information about an opponent's play style is freely available: League of Legends. If you pay attention to the pro scene then you will see champions picked and banned specifically to counter an opposing player. The only difference between LoL and how Specter plays Malifaux is that LoL makes that information freely available, and most Malifaux players seem at least partially secretive about their possessions. If anything I think this discussion mostly points to how young the Malifaux tournament scene is currently. If the game grows, then I can guarantee "bag scouting" will become the norm.

I think fighting these competitive play actions will end up being a fruitless struggle that only causes discontent in the community. It's really just an issue of friendly and competitive views clashing.

[4thstringer]

This is the kind of post that makes me want to stay away from "competitive play". I'm very interested in how I could hold up against tourney players, but when the game starts being about cheap tricks not the game, count me out.