Fixing Leviticus

[Fetid Strumpet]

I believe he is referring to when individuals make a suggested change to the rules during the play testing phase and many forum posters come in a say you shouldn't do that, and you shouldn't. I doubt in this instance, since the rule is not in the context of a play test, it would garner much comment other than "Play that way if you want to, we'll play using the Real rules." which tends to happen.

 

Icemyn however makes the salient point in that even if he tested it, it wouldn't really offer and proof one way or another because the data set would be so small. And I also think regardless of whether Levi is the strongest master in the game or not, Wyrd isn't going to errata him unless there is a definitive problem exemplified by lots of players, not just players of Icemyn's caliber, abusing said master.

 

In any game where people don't have exactly the same powers, someone is going to be on top of the power curve. The endless arguments that get spawned on the forums are in how far above everyone else that outlier on the curve is, and how many other masters are close to it. There are several masters I think are over the curve, but the curve in M2E at least up to wave 2 is much flatter and the masters more close to each other in power than was ever the case in M1 and M1.5. Cuddling whoever is on top just puts the new most powerful master on top in a cycle which no one is happy with.

 

My personal take is that recent tournaments have, in some very few small cases, indicated there are models that an eye should be kept on (I'm looking at you Mechanical Rider, and others), but that there really isn't enough data to warrant any real nerving as of yet. Icemyn could be 100% correct and Levi may in fact be in need of a Cuddling, but at this point its far from clear he does, and if he does what the actual most effective solution might be. 

 

I do think the conversation is constructive though.

[Adran]

I have not. Changing the game and reporting back on it would get the most negative feedback you have ever seen. Imagine the current comments with twice the condescension & Derision. Additionally, by myself there is no way I could generate enough data points to prove it would indeed be a good fix. 

 

That I can understand.

I've just gone back and looked at your gencon list again, and you could still take it under this proposed change, with just 1 cache lower.

 

 

I personally don't think levi needs a change, but he is a short sharp shock for someone who doesn't know him. But I will admit you have a much better understandign of him than I do.

[moxypoo]

 

Thing is Moxy there's a decent number of people out there who don't share our refined pallet and tend to get a little, I think understandably, irritated when they figure out in media res that the basic principles of the game are getting turned on their head. I mean you cant blame them for acting on assumptions like 'things will die when I kill them,' or being upset when it doesn't work out that way.

Oh, I completely agree with you.  I can understand this attitude, but I really can't empathize with it.  I'm stubborn as all hell, so if I'm consistently losing to a particular master I will practice and brainstorm until I figure out how to beat said master.  But I do understand that most people don't share this attitude, so I can see how Levy would upset them.

[Whut]

Oh, I completely agree with you.  I can understand this attitude, but I really can't empathize with it.  I'm stubborn as all hell, so if I'm consistently losing to a particular master I will practice and brainstorm until I figure out how to beat said master.  But I do understand that most people don't share this attitude, so I can see how Levy would upset them.

Would you mind if I asked what exactly the way to beat Levi is? I can't speak for everyone, but at least from the Arcanist perspective I can't see any way to deal with everything he can bring. To survive his crew (Ashes&Dust in particular), Armor helps, but Levi himself rips through armor. Ashes is so fast its hard to hit him first, and Levi can attack from super far away, ignoring cover. Even if you do hit either of them hard enough to kill them, you didn't accomplish much because either of them can easily come back, and your (most likely expensive) model is now trapped in the middle of the opponent's crew, ready to die. I suppose crews with strong shooting elements (Sonnia, Perdita, Gremlins) will have an easier time?

[moxypoo]

Would you mind if I asked what exactly the way to beat Levi is? I can't speak for everyone, but at least from the Arcanist perspective I can't see any way to deal with everything he can bring. To survive his crew (Ashes&Dust in particular), Armor helps, but Levi himself rips through armor. Ashes is so fast its hard to hit him first, and Levi can attack from super far away, ignoring cover. Even if you do hit either of them hard enough to kill them, you didn't accomplish much because either of them can easily come back, and your (most likely expensive) model is now trapped in the middle of the opponent's crew, ready to die. I suppose crews with strong shooting elements (Sonnia, Perdita, Gremlins) will have an easier time?

I don't mind at all!

 

From your post I can tell that you're in the wrong mindset for fighting Leveticus.  According to your post, you're focusing on killing him and A&D permanently, which is generally a waste of AP.  The key to beating Leveticus is to limit his options and always play to the objectives.  For example, opportunistically killing his Waifs greatly limits his mobility and offense; he can't use Channel very effectively if he's scared that he won't be able to come back.  If you're going to go after A&D, make sure you can also kill one of the pieces after he splits.  I find that players often spend a lot of effort to kill A&D only to ignore the pieces and let him reform - he doesn't actually put out an enormous amount of damage for his cost, so keep that in mind.  Hitting Leveticus hard and fast in the early game will severely constrain his options for later objectives.

 

Also, get in the mindset that you will lose models.  Leveticus is one of those masters (like the Viks, Perdita, or Lady J) who can kill models at will.  Don't play too defensively, because that plays right into Levy's hands.  Don't needlessly sacrifice models either; try to bait the Levy player into killing a model you want him to rather than making the best tactical choice.

 

Lastly, always play to the objectives.  In my experience, people who are unused to playing against Leveticus try to get into a slug-fest with him, which is inadvisable.  Rather, focus on scoring your objectives and not on gunning for Levy's crew.  My friend CougDyver plays Arcanists and does well against Levy with Ramos and Ironsides.  If you PM'ed him, I'm sure he could give you master specific advice.

 

Hope this helps!

[DeleteAccount]

Another suggestion, though I've only played Leveticus once, but targeting Leveticus with some burst damage before he activates (supposing you don't have anything better to target) really castrates that turns use of Unmaking. I remember that I took a beating, it didn't kill me, but it did leave me with 2 wounds and I had to blow a soulstone, meaning that my Unmakings would not be boosted, and as such, be a lot less scary (he also had slow...). This doesn't work so well against him punching you to death though as long as he has a full hand and is willing to discard.

[Math Mathonwy]

Well, Levi is essentially the toughest as well as the killiest Master (as long as he can pick his targets, which he can). One of the fastest, too.

[moxypoo]

Another suggestion, though I've only played Leveticus once, but targeting Leveticus with some burst damage before he activates (supposing you don't have anything better to target) really castrates that turns use of Unmaking. I remember that I took a beating, it didn't kill me, but it did leave me with 2 wounds and I had to blow a soulstone, meaning that my Unmakings would not be boosted, and as such, be a lot less scary (he also had slow...). This doesn't work so well against him punching you to death though as long as he has a full hand and is willing to discard.

This is another great piece of advice.

 

Along these lines - killing Levy before he activates during a particular also really helps.

[Dafty]

Well, Levi is essentially the toughest as well as the killiest Master (as long as he can pick his targets, which he can). One of the fastest, too.

So fastest killiest toughest master with the biggest model pool to choose from.

Nope not op. Mediocre at best.

[Patzer]

The fact that Leve can hire either all non-gremlin undead or constructs sure makes him powerful. However, I am not convinced that having more models is actually going to make a master more powerful. Flexibility is always a nice thing to have, but in it self it won't win any games. In order for the ability to be overpowered it needs to make the models hired into Leveticus crew (cross factions) to be better in Leveticus crew. I don't think that is the case, rather the opposite, thanks to some good design decisions. For instance, Coryphees cannot Dance Together unless they are used in an Arcanist crew. I think that most Ressers Levetiucs can hire is sometimes a bit lacking since they get their edge from different upgrades Leve cannot take.

 

The way I look at Leveticus crew is that it needs to have models that function on their own, without much support, and can excel in that role. Much like Levetiucs is great at killing, he needs a Necropunk who is great to run for objectives. My point is, Levetiucs himself isn't really versatile at all so his crew needs to make up for that. I.e a restriction.

 

I can certainly agree with you that Leveticus might should have had a restriction to the amount he could hire (like infiltration 4) or pay the merc tax. That would tone him down some. At the same time I don't think their is a pressing need for it. Leveticus is really strong, but he isn't unbeatable or so far above the curve. For instance, I think that more players would like to see the Mech Rider (which is really the thing we are talking about he I presume^^), Corn Husks, or Trappers being cuddled

 

Another thing, Leveticus hasn't been out of the gates for a long time, just about half a year. Lynch (without bonkers Nexus) was at the peak of his powers at this point last year, now I don't hear that much about him any more or that he is utter filth.

[Math Mathonwy]

Another thing, Leveticus hasn't been out of the gates for a long time, just about half a year. Lynch (without bonkers Nexus) was at the peak of his powers at this point last year, now I don't hear that much about him any more or that he is utter filth.

Lynch got an errata which affected his power level

[zFiend]

Lynch got an errata which affected his power level

 

And I still think if he got an errata there are other models that should get one as well.  

[Patzer]

Lynch got an errata which affected his power level

That is true, but if I recall the turn of events correctly Lynch wasn't played as heavily when he got erratad. Also, even if Lynch could potentially have a ridiculous damage track which could potentially be casted 3 times; I never thought that the Final Debt was OP since those situations never occurred. Anyway, what is done is done and I can understand why they did it.

 

While if something is going to be erratad, after half a year of tournament season and non-play testing, I think there are bigger problems around than Leveticus hiring pool.

[zeeblee]

Arguably there should be errata occuring from time to time.  It's nigh impossible to truly playtest balance in a timely manner which still allows for models to be released.  As I allude to in other threads, League of Legends has a constant "errata" cycle in order to maintain balance in their game to cope with the release of new content as well as new community discoveries.  Errata is healthy and useful.

 

Then again, most mini games seem to "errata" via new editions instead, but I think embracing the existence of the internet and releasing FAQs and errata upon getting more and more play data is something that should be done.

[Dirial]

That is true, but if I recall the turn of events correctly Lynch wasn't played as heavily when he got erratad. Also, even if Lynch could potentially have a ridiculous damage track which could potentially be casted 3 times; I never thought that the Final Debt was OP since those situations never occurred. Anyway, what is done is done and I can understand why they did it.

 

While if something is going to be erratad, after half a year of tournament season and non-play testing, I think there are bigger problems around than Leveticus hiring pool.

 

While I generally agree with you, I should tell you about the one time Mr. Lynch came to Lady Justice's door to remind her of her crippling gambling debts... It wasn't pretty. Well, maybe if you go for abstract art... in blood... on the floor...

[zFiend]

While I generally agree with you, I should tell you about the one time Mr. Lynch came to Lady Justice's door to remind her of her crippling gambling debts... It wasn't pretty. Well, maybe if you go for abstract art... in blood... on the floor...

 

Just what the Guild deserves. Yes! 

[Bengt]

Arguably there should be errata occuring from time to time.  It's nigh impossible to truly playtest balance in a timely manner which still allows for models to be released.  As I allude to in other threads, League of Legends has a constant "errata" cycle in order to maintain balance in their game to cope with the release of new content as well as new community discoveries.  Errata is healthy and useful.

 

Then again, most mini games seem to "errata" via new editions instead, but I think embracing the existence of the internet and releasing FAQs and errata upon getting more and more play data is something that should be done.

The logistics of errataing a computer game is vastly different from mini game. Especially a client server game where the client gets automatically updated when connecting to the server.

[zeeblee]

The logistics of errataing a computer game is vastly different from mini game. Especially a client server game where the client gets automatically updated when connecting to the server.

Very true, but we constantly see "soft errata" in the form of FAQs.  Playing at home means you might not get the update, but if you're a tournament player you will have to research and abide by the update.  Even Warhammer 40k has pulled some pretty strong errata in the past (though very rarely).

[Bodiless]

WMH has drastically altered the power level of various models via errata. 

[Justin]

WMH has drastically altered the power level of various models via errata. 

 

As has Malifaux.

 

We're just not going to make a habit of doing it unless we have to.

 

If I were to be convinced that Leveticus were the most powerful Master in the game, and his hiring pool was the sole problem, then I would errata it.

 

At the moment I am not convinced. But things can change. Carry on.

[Drool_bucket]

We're just not going to make a habit of doing it unless we have to.

If I were to be convinced....

...But things can change. Carry on.

I'd be interested to hear what models you do have your eyeball on, if any?

 

Maybe after the Beta you could share some/all and people could contribute planet-wide reports and feedback.

 

Instead of these Mech Rider/BelleSpam/Leveticus/Dreamer threads that spontaneous pop up....  kinda like a "State of the Game thread" that keys eyes and ears open and information exchange flowing?

[r4st4f4n]

The fact that Leve can hire either all non-gremlin undead or constructs sure makes him powerful. However, I am not convinced that having more models is actually going to make a master more powerful. Flexibility is always a nice thing to have, but in it self it won't win any games. In order for the ability to be overpowered it needs to make the models hired into Leveticus crew (cross factions) to be better in Leveticus crew. I don't think that is the case, rather the opposite, thanks to some good design decisions. For instance, Coryphees cannot Dance Together unless they are used in an Arcanist crew. I think that most Ressers Levetiucs can hire is sometimes a bit lacking since they get their edge from different upgrades Leve cannot take.

Actually, some of the Arcanists' models do individually shine brighter inside one of those OOF-filthy-"borrowers" crews, having their best mechanics all starving from Tomes , which they have to contend to death inside an Arcanists crew. Having a lot less contenders of the same suit (that probably can get the best out of the other suits in hand, and waste less of them, too) helps them having a higher rate of usage of their shiny ability/trigger throughout the game, therefore play "stronger"

[Patzer]

Actually, some of the Arcanists' models do individually shine brighter inside one of those OOF-filthy-"borrowers" crews, having their best mechanics all starving from Tomes , which they have to contend to death inside an Arcanists crew. Having a lot less contenders of the same suit (that probably can get the best out of the other suits in hand, and waste less of them, too) helps them having a higher rate of usage of their shiny ability/trigger throughout the game, therefore play "stronger"

One of Leveticus' best triggers need tomes, so there are some battle for that suit with him too. I get what you are saying, but I am not certain that is applying to Leve. Mech Rider is very sufficient of getting those tomes by itself, Howard competes with Leve on high Rams, SS-Miner doesn't really need suits for what it does for Leve. I couldn't come up with a specific model that really becomes better with Leve than in Arcanist. Any specific model you were thinking of?

[Justin]

I'd be interested to hear what models you do have your eyeball on, if any?

 

Maybe after the Beta you could share some/all and people could contribute planet-wide reports and feedback.

 

Instead of these Mech Rider/BelleSpam/Leveticus/Dreamer threads that spontaneous pop up....  kinda like a "State of the Game thread" that keys eyes and ears open and information exchange flowing?

 

I think that's dangerous, as it could become a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. "Oh, you're playing the Master Justin said was broken?"

 

I catch enough flack for answering rules questions in a non-official capacity. And rightly so. It's hard to take things I say about Malifaux game mechanics as opinion, even though they are.

[Lucidicide]

Last I heard, Justin had his eye on Coppelius. Hur hur hur