The Adept Posted December 27, 2014 Report Share Posted December 27, 2014 A friend and I (both experienced wargamers) have had a few games with the starter crew boxes (at 35ss), my Hoffman vs his Lucius. So far he's been really struggling, and has been unable to finish off any of my constructs (other than a Watcher for Frame for Murder); Hoffman repairs most of the damage that the machines take. We know it's not all about the kills, but with my hunters chewing through his guys it's very hard for him to score VPs or prevent me from scoring VPs, especially on the last couple of turns when the casualties have built up. Is this just a bad match up for Lucis, or are we missing something? His lack of hard hitters seems like an issue. All thoughts welcome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khyodee Posted December 27, 2014 Report Share Posted December 27, 2014 I assume he is playing as guild with the box set (since this is posted under guild forums). Lucius is a minion enabler and he needs good minions in order to win games. That said his box set isn't very good independently for killing based schemes & strategies since as you stated, he lacks minions that are offensive. What he'll need to do is get ahold of some of the stronger minions (like your hunters for example) to be more effective. He also loves guild riflemen with dashel if you have schemes and a strategy that doesn't need a lot of extra movement. The problem with the base box is that you have to many support models with nothing to support. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kapten Vendetta Posted December 27, 2014 Report Share Posted December 27, 2014 Hi, and welcome to the game, as a fellow Hoffman player I feel for your friend, as box .vs. box it seems rather a poor matchup (Note: I do not play Lucius myself). It seems Lucius really comes into his own when other (arguably better) Guadsmen come into play, such as Riflemen (Dashel & a couple of them guys really pack a punch). Strong minions such as Illuminated which Lucius, if Neverborn, has access to (while keeping said guardsman trio as mentioned above with Surprisingly Loyal) is a good choice. Lucius really likes minions, good ones, and with such minions he really has the potential to shine. Right out of the box I can see the Lucius crew struggling somewhat, with the lack of a beatstick and dedicated schemerunners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebarbalag Posted December 27, 2014 Report Share Posted December 27, 2014 Really depends on the schemes and strats available, but the Hoffman box, as posted above, is a little more well-rounded than Lucius. That in mind, Lucius' crew really doesn't need to kill anything at all. I watched a game between two of my gaming mates between Lucius and Rasputina, at the end of which, Lucius had a Lawyer who was about to die left, and had not killed a single of Rasputina's models, and Lucius won 10-3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Adept Posted December 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2014 That's good to hear - we had come to the conclusion that the Lucius box has too high a proportion of support (coming from Warmachine, that's a thing we're used to trying to avoid). We were worried he'd just chosen a bad Master/theme, but it looks like things will get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asrian Posted December 27, 2014 Report Share Posted December 27, 2014 Lucius is by no means a bad Master/Theme, quite the opposite. He just takes a bit more finesse and less straight forward brutality than what other Masters/Crews can dish out. For the Lucius player himself, what I tell new players when I play them is at the start of each turn re-read their strat/schemes and see how they can achieve them that turn. Worry less about killing the opponent (unless that is a strat/scheme) and more about achieve their own goals. After a few games it'll start to click in place. Don't get discouraged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chumbalaya Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Lucius limited to only his box is a sad secretary. Dashel buffs shooting and Guild Guard really don't have very impressive firepower. They're more suited to moving around the board dropping schemes and dying slowly, or running in a horde beating stuff up with numbers. The Lucius box is thematic and all the models are useful to him, just not all at once. Dashel works better with Riflemen, Pathfinders and Austringers (the shooty ones) while Guild Guard work better with Guard Sergeants and more melee oriented models like The Judge, Wardens or Hunters. Lawyers are super versatile and useful, just not terribly killy. Lucius himself and the Scribe are more about mobility and control, both over your own minions and enemies through debuffs. If Lucius spends his entire activation simply walking across the table while giving 3 minions free actions, it was a good turn. Your pal has a bad matchup right now, but as you expand up to 50SS he'll get a lot better. Riflemen, Austringers, and a Pathfinder are great additions, as are any Guild minions, really. Dipping into Neverborn with Surprisingly Loyal is also a good call, look for Doppelganger, Beckoners and Mr. Graves. Lucius has a ton of options to make solid crews depending on the strategy and schemes, whereas Hoffman works with what he's got, so the more options you give Lucius the better he gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thstringer Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Here is what I would do (or try to do): I would use Lucius as a tarpit. First turn move him up, making sure to take advantage of any cover that he can. use his commanding presence with the lawyers to get the lawyers and Guild Guard up the board towards scheme success. Work to get him and the scribe into combat as fast as possible (but not together, the scribe should chase the lawyers to keep their defense at a 7 so that the hunter's 5 shoot will struggle. Daschell and the guardsman should work as a team too, hopefully giving the guardsman the ability to actually hit things with his shooting, and hopefully allowing him to get a severe off so that he can actually do some real damage. Daschell's gun isn't half bad, as is certainly enough to take down watchers. If he is given plant evidence, he can operate as a fairly tough scheme runner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerHarris Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 One model that's probably worth looking at for both of you is the Warden. They're minions, fairly solid and can pack a punch too, and the models seem fairly easy to get hold of - I was able to snap up a couple in the same country without difficulty. They give Lucius options that he probably hasn't got at the moment in the shape of beatsticks that he can influence, and their advantages against horror duels should help as well when he starts ordering them around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Sadly, Lucius box has quite a few questionable models in there. Two Lawyers is a bit much and the Guild Guard really aren't all that good. A box of Riflemen and a Doppelganger make for some really nice additions, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorschlag Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Lucius Shopping List Guild Hounds Guild Warden Guild Pathfinder Guild Riflemen Guild Sergeant Guild Austringer Guild Hunter Executioner Death Marshalls and Witchling stalkers seem really good on paper as well but are yet to succeed in anything other than getting killed in my Lucius Lists. Unless I'm playing a mimic only list a pathfinder and a warden always find a place in my Lucius lists followed regularly by a Sergeant and/or Lawyers, the rest depends on the S&S. Neverborn: Candy Doppelgänger Beckoners Mr Tannen Mr Graves Unless he plans to break into neverborn Candy might be hard to get his hands on but she can really change the way Lucius plays, She would normally replace a beat stick like the executioner in my crews so is situational. Mr Tannen works wonders when he's well enough protected and the beckoners auto trigger makes them a highly mobile target for Lucius' movement tricks (walk Lucius - target beckoner - beckoner lures Lucius and then pushes herself in any direction). Graves can increase mobility of your shooters a little by pushing one around per turn but I'm yet to see him make up his stones on the table, the doppleganger on the other hand can be useful for stealing everyone's tricks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertmac Posted December 30, 2014 Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 Just lucius' box you need to use dashel as a beatstick potential to do 5 damage from a weak hit with a ss for an extra ram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Adept Posted December 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 I like the look of Wardens for Hoffman (they punish activated models, the Hunters punish unactivated - I like the symmetry), but I'm sticking to the 2e models as they're so much better! This limits me a bit, but there's enough to paint for a while. Is there any word on when / if things like the Watchers are to be released separately? I could do with another one or two as scheme runners. My next shopping list: Metal Gamin and the Lady J crew box. Death marshals are too cool not to have, the Judge is an independent beatstick, and the Gamin bring Ca8 and cheap but durable constructs. Plus master flexibility is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HowNot2Wargame Posted December 30, 2014 Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 Hate to sound a dissenting voice but.... If you friend is playing Hoffman (and guild), have you thought about playing Neverborn? Illuminated would solve your hitty problems in five seconds and you can still take Guardsmen with suprsingly loyal. Then you add in waldgeist and silurids and terror tots and... Lots of minion based fun. Thought I would at least suggest it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thstringer Posted December 30, 2014 Report Share Posted December 30, 2014 Unless he plans to break into neverborn Candy might be hard to get his hands on but she can really change the way Lucius plays, She would normally replace a beat stick like the executioner in my crews so is situational. I have found Candy to be a hard beatstick to use. She is great for hunting down other beatsticks, but sometimes you need your killer to clear out a tarpit or kill a scheme runner, and she is god-awful at those due to being dependent on the opposing model's damage spreads. I find her better as a planned support/secondary beatstick model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lusciousmccabe Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 If you friend is playing Hoffman (and guild), have you thought about playing Neverborn? Illuminated would solve your hitty problems in five seconds and you can still take Guardsmen with suprsingly loyal. Then you add in waldgeist and silurids and terror tots and... Lots of minion based fun. Probably one of the main advantages of the Lucius box set-up is that everything in it can be dual faction with that upgrade. It kind of makes up for it not being that feasible to open and play since it's basically a support box for neverborn or guild Lucius. Can you get the Illuminated on their own as a box, or do you need to get the Lynch starter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asrian Posted December 31, 2014 Report Share Posted December 31, 2014 You need the Lynch box. The Illuminated aren't sold seperately yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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