Showgirls: Colette's Promt

[Anselmus]

Hi there,

 

had my first game of M2E last night. I played (apart from other models) Colette and a Coryphee Duet. 

 

Since Corlette has 3 APs is it possible to cast Prompt three times on the Duet and make it attack three times out of its actual activation? 

This seems kind of overpowered.

 

Gtx
A

[zFiend]

You can and it is.

[asrian]

I don't see it as overpowered. Basically it's just a transfer of power. It's the same for any control style master (Colette, Zoraida, Lucius, and Collodi all come to mind). They're basically giving up their ability to do anything themselves by utilizing those around them to do more instead. Take away their toys, and they aren't as deadly. They are still each a very real threat, but they get more power from ordering others around rather than doing the job themselves. 

[mythicFOX]

Yeah, combat masters can hit as hard as a Coryphee (or harder) three times themselves, without having the prompt step in the middle of it.

[asrian]

Three hits from a Coryphee or three hits from Vik of Blood or Lady Justice.

What is Sophie's Choice, Alex.

[Grantt]

Wait 'til the avatar hits...

[Dirial]

Three hits from a Coryphee or three hits from Vik of Blood or Lady Justice.

What is Sophie's Choice, Alex.

 

Come on, those two hit like girls.

 

(Actually, that figure of speech might mean something totally different in Malifaux.)

[Barnaberible]

In a game I had Colette prompted Howard Langston to decapitate 34ss worth of my models in one activation. I wouldn't have minded so much but he was paralysed at the time! And what did Colette do, she stood 10" away laughing, lets see Vic of Blood do THAT!!

[Dirial]

In a game I had Colette prompted Howard Langston to decapitate 34ss worth of my models in one activation. I wouldn't have minded so much but he was paralysed at the time! And what did Colette do, she stood 10" away laughing, lets see Vic of Blood do THAT!!

 

Well, if he was paralyzed, he had no melee range, and thus cannot attack. Colette could have prompted him to interact or move, but not to attack.

[Barnaberible]

Well, if he was paralyzed, he had no melee range, and thus cannot attack. Colette could have prompted him to interact or move, but not to attack.

 

Good call, I will demand recompense from my opponent! 

[r4st4f4n]

Well, if he was paralyzed, he had no melee range, and thus cannot attack. Colette could have prompted him to interact or move, but not to attack.

Mmm, bad interaction here... So by rules a paralyzed model cannot be obeyed to take a melee attack action, but can be obeyed to take any ranged attack one? Brrr...

[DocSchlock]

"A model with the Paralyzed Condition generates no AP and can declare no
Actions during its Activation (not even 0 Actions which cost no AP). The range of
all $ Actions a model has is considered 0 while it is affected by the Paralyzed
Condition, and will therefore not engage enemy models"

Considering BtB contact is defined in the FAQ as 0", does that mean if the Paralyzed model was prompted to Attack while in BtB with an enemy, they could do it anyway? Or does the "not engage enemy models" part override that, since you need to be engaged to make a Close attack?

Paralyze only prevents Actions during the model's activation. It does not prevent Actions outside of the Activation.

[Adran]

Mmm, bad interaction here... So by rules a paralyzed model cannot be obeyed to take a melee attack action, but can be obeyed to take any ranged attack one? Brrr...

One of the things paralysed does to a model is give it a 0" engagement range.

So you can't use  attacks if you are ordered. Paralysed doesn't affect any other range a model has

[Math Mathonwy]

Don't have the book handy, but I thought that Paralyze dropped the Melee reach to 0" and thought that they could still do stuff like Pounce into base to base contact? Is this thought incorrect?

Edit: OK, I was really late in sending my reply it seems... Doc "ninjaed" me by ten minutes, it seems. I'm not sure it counts as a ninjaing anymore, though.

[zFiend]

Doc "ninjaed" me by ten minutes, it seems. I'm not sure it counts as a ninjaing anymore, though.

 

We just call you Lenny because of your height.  

[Soul Puppet]

I was the Colette player prompting Howard mentioned above.

 

This specific instance aside, I confess I am a little confused by distances in Malifaux sometimes.

 

If a model has a 3" engagement range and another model is pushed to exactly 3" away from said model, are they engaged in melee? As I understand it under the rules for 'Within' they are and the model with a 3" Ml attack can use it.

 

Technically then, a model with a 0" engagement range should be able to make Ml attacks if it were in base contact with the model it wishes to hit as it is 'Within' 0". The Paralyzed rule says they not engaged though, which seems to indicate no Ml attack is possible.

 

Just seems a little inconsistent.

[DocSchlock]

Or Paralyzed saying they are not engaged is part of Paralyzed's change to engagement.

[tenshu]

even base to base isn't technically 0" its 0. 000000000000000loads more 000000001 from each other... 0" would end at the models own base not past onto the other. anywho Martin is a cheating so n so. unless on my team. then alls fair.

[Soul Puppet]

Or Paralyzed saying they are not engaged is part of Paralyzed's change to engagement.

Which means that a paralyzed model in base contact can be prompted/obeyed/etc to make a Ml attack then?

[Fetid Strumpet]

The relevant text for this discussion is on page 52 of the big rule book:

 

 

The range of all   actions a model has is considered to be 0 while it is affected by the Paralyzed Condition, and will therefore not engage enemy models.

 

You cannot make a melee attack if you are not within your engagement range, and the rules for Paralyzed say you do not engage enemy models while you have the condition.

 

 

As a personal observation on the action Prompt, I tend to find that Obey type effects like Prompt are more powerful than if they had a damaging attack action on masters, if that action has a decent range. The reason I have found this to be so is that it is a force multiplier that can be used very effectively and with versatility. Lets examine Zoraida's hyper movement from animal shape. She can take two actions to teleport a great distance, but if she does she can't interact. Prompt allows Colette to just target a model within 10" move is 3" and then just drop a marker. She herself has to move minimally to project massive amounts of power in that way.

 

Additionally comparing it to a melee master is just not really fair because that Melee master not only has to maneuver and put themselves in theoretical danger, and can be blocked or diverted, they physically have to be where they want to threaten in order to project power. Additionally consider that the bigger melee models are prime to be abused in this way. Lady J and Howard's melee attack are about equal in deadliness, if you survive a charge by Lady J you know at least she won't attack you again until next turn. In a crew with Prompt Howard can nimble up to you, flurry, and if you survive Prompt can give Howard between a max of 3 to 6 more attacks. and if any of them remove you as a threat Prompt can then jump to another model somewhere else up to 10" away from Colette.

 

It was something I found during the beta that masters that could just effectively give their AP to other models within a long range, especially if those masters were difficult to remove from the board, were often more effective that masters that just had great attack actions.

 

It's one of the reasons that almost all Obey effects not only require a suit, but also prevent you from taking more than one attack action via the Obey. Ultimately while I wasn't surprised that Prompt didn't prevent multiple attack actions I was surprised that it didn't require a suit.

 

Its going to take awhile though to truly gage where any particular master lies along the power axis, and even with prompt, while I think it is one of the most, if not THE most powerful abilities in the game, it remains to be seen in the long run if Colette's weaknesses make up for it. at this point wave 2 is just still too new to really have a hard gage on it, and my views I don't say are 100% fact, just what I've come to experience.

[Soul Puppet]

The relevant text for this discussion is on page 52 of the big rule book:

 

 

You cannot make a melee attack if you are not within your engagement range, and the rules for Paralyzed say you do not engage enemy models while you have the condition.

 

I'm not sure about this bit as it just adds to my confusion. Paralyzed is the only place I've seen where it says in the rulebook that you are not engaged with a range of 0"

 

Under Attacks it only mentions being in range and under Engagement it says that the engaement range is equal to distance of a models longest Ml attack.

 

It just goes back to the distance thing and I know that this is a niche case but it just bugs me.

 

I agree completely with the rest of what you said though.

[decker_cky]

even base to base isn't technically 0" its 0. 000000000000000loads more 000000001 from each other... 0" would end at the models own base not past onto the other. anywho Martin is a cheating so n so. unless on my team. then alls fair.

I'm pretty sure there's actually an FAQ on that, and base to base is 0" (and 3" away is within 3", etc..).

[Soul Puppet]

Yep...

 

Q: If two models are in base to base contact, and an Ability pushes one of them exactly 3”

away, how much distance is considered to be in between the two models? Are they

considered to be within 3” of each other?

A: As base to base contact is considered to be exactly 0” apart, the models would be exactly

3” apart after the push and therefore still within 3” of each other. 

[Hateful Darkblack]

Colette is just really, really good.

[Barnaberible]

I think Fetid's summary of prompt is bang on.

One of the reasons I was in a position where Martin could use Howard to decapitate 3 of my models was that on the only other time I played against Colette I remember prompt involving a 6 and a 10 and I foolishly thought it was a 10 to cast with a 6" range and not vica-verca!

The only other thing I have struggled against in wave 2 is mech rider and his scheme dropping ability, not faced the full force of that in conjunction with Colette yet but I imagine it's not fun.

As for the melee issue, I would presume not engaged = no option for melee attack even with obey / prompt

[Soul Puppet]

As for the melee issue, I would presume not engaged = no option for melee attack even with obey / prompt

 

That's the problem. The wording of the Paralyzed rule contradicts the wording of 'within' as per the FAQ.

 

EDIT: Also, still can't find anywhere else in the book where it says you have to be engaged to make a  attack?