How to win vs Perdita

[vulky]

I'm playing vs a friend who plays Perdita, we are both kind of new, I have not won once vs Perdita, using any master and with a variety of schemes etc, the best I've got is a tie 8-8. I usually play Pandora, but also use Vikotorias and Seamus.

 

Perdita crew:

 

Perdita

Nephilim (totem)
Francisco

Papa

Santiago
Austringer

Austringer

 

 

Perdita:

Ignores cover/ethereal.

Df9/Wp9

8'' push on activation.

Controls other models

 

Francisco:

Wp8

(-) to melee him.

Is ignored when shoothing into engagement.

(-) to Df when getting shot while engaged (enemy).

Ml7

 

Francisco charges a model which Perdita cannot see -> Perdita shoots Francisco -> It's and engagement, roll for each model -> Can't roll for Francisco -> Instantly hit a model out of sight, who gets a (-) to def, cover is ignored.

 

Possible solution:

Stay as far as possible and without line of sight to any model -> Austringers ignore LoS and Cover, will kill 1 model minimum per turn

 

 

He killed all my Sorrows by turn 2, before they even went close to any enemy (Actually they were not even seen by any enemy)

I had 3 models by turn 4, only tied because my Doppleganger copied Santiago and killed him for 3 points of Vendetta (only way to kill Ortegas is to be Ortega). He finished with 6 models, would have won if the game went into turn 6, only had my totem left at turn 5.

 

 

Please guide me in the direction of being able to hurt Ortegas, even he agrees that it's ridiculously overpowered.

 

 

PD: We bought the rulebook, but don't get to use it much, all rules are ignored by his crew (Cover, LoS, Sh actions in melee, random hits when shooting into melee...)

 

[knghtpiper]

Target the totem, that will limit some of his abilities.  Also always remember to play the mission.  Choose missions you know your guys will have a good chance to completing.  This is one of my issues as anyone who reads my post know.  If you can overload him with models go for that.   

[Uktena]

Goodbye sorrows, hello insidious madness. Also, how much terrain you using? You gotta clog the board pretty good in Malifaux.

[Dirial]

This is a very common question, as beginners often struggle against the Ortegas. This is not because they are broken or unbeatable, but because they punish positioning errors, cautious play and little terrain, whcih are typical beginner errors.

 

I have some reading for you where similar questions were discussed before:

 

Perdita-the-Killer-Thread

Perdita's Tactica Wiki page

Taking-on-Ranged-Crews-Guide

[MasterDisaster]

Yeah this does come up a lot, I can see why she's such a pain to deal with but this is my thought process when I'm regularly kicking her ass all over Malifaux

 

Use minimum 33% terrain on the board as per rulebook and not Warmahordes / Warhammer / 40k levels of terrain. (Granted this is a common mistake)

KILL FRANCISCO!!!

KILL ENSLAVED NEPHILIM!!

Hide in cover for cover bonuses or to deny LoS and attack when only necessary, focus on schemes and strategy instead of killing. VP wins... Kills often do not.

 

Double Austringers is hardly beginner friendly and that list definitely looks like it's designed to stomp face rather than achieve objectives. If you want to kick her face in you can out shoot her. Double Freikorps Trapper + Hans... Perdita doesn't like 3 28"+ range sniper shots EVERY turn  that or just take Ophelia 

[rb_man]

Kill Francisco and Papa first. Hell even with the buff Papa is only WP 6 so he should be easy to lure in to blowing himself up. Also Perdita does not ignore a few different rules like hard to wound and hard to kill. Also her crew has a low weak damage spread of 2 over most of her crew with no built in crit strike. So Hard to wound models with high wound counts that can heal are a good bet like Teddies. But I think the biggest issue you have is you are playing vs what sound like a pretty good player with a dick kicking list with masters that she hard counters in a lot of ways. Like the High WP all around, the ignoring incorporeal, and the not having to take horror duels is the whole point of her crew. it is why she is the neverborn hunter . The Viktorias are  there to kill the minis with all the defensive abilities in the book and to do it from half the board away. But they fold kind of fast do to low wounds vs high MI and SH crews. Seamus Is low DF and again really relies on WP dules to get stuff done. Stuff that would give you a much better matchup would be like Lilith, Tara, or Kirai.

 

Edit: came up with more ideas

 

Another thing you can do is build a crew to just do the strategies and schemes and just not fight her. Also Zorida and Swapfeids would be pretty good as well since they Charges and shooting take a  if they have not activated yet. Even more so since bad juju fits with high wounds and can heal even come back to life. Hell you could even take a Papa Loco of your own.

Edited December 15, 2014 by rb_man

[Therril_83]

Perdita crew:

 

Perdita

Nephilim (totem)

Francisco

Papa

Santiago

Austringer

Austringer

 

 

Perdita:

Ignores cover/ethereal.

Df9/Wp9

8'' push on activation.

Controls other models

 

Francisco:

Wp8

(-) to melee him.

Is ignored when shoothing into engagement.

(-) to Df when getting shot while engaged (enemy).

Ml7

I've played alot against Perdita, most success I've had with Pandora so I will comment from her point of view somewhat.

 

First off, how come Francisco has Wp8? he's only 6 on the card and he can't buff himself..   and the  to Ml is only after he himself activated that ability that ends with the turn, and it only affects Ml-actions, not  , so Pandora should make short work of him if you can attack him before he activates. If you kill him, Perdita immediately returns to Df7/Wp7, which is still high, but not invincible. So I say above all else, Francisco should be your #1 target to kill. Unless possibly if you can make Papa explode before.

I've also found that keeping Pedita engaged with Pandora at beyond her 2" reach is the best way to shut her down, since she has to walk to get into range (and take a horror duel if you've taken The Box Opens-upgrade, which you should) shoot once, and then you keep your highest card left to make sure you win and push to between 2-3" again so she cannot fire a third time.

With Pandora, I somewhat rely on having both The Box Opens and Fears Given Form on Pandora herself and engaging alot of models, preferably outside their own range which is usually possible. That means the opponent needs to take alot of tests to do anything (Df14 and Wp13), and while they can often cheat and pass, it depletes their hand.

 

I will also reccomend alot of the models typically seen in Lynch's crew: Illuminated, Beckoners and Mr Graves. The Illuminated are insane tanks, often weathering an entire activation from stuff as hard as Perdita, before activating and healing back to near full again. And then they are no slouches in combat even without Beckoners, who add even more to them (but I want to stress: don't go out of your way to set up the brilliance before attacking, see it more as a nice bonus if it happens). Beckoners can shoot into engagements without randomizing (lacks the  symbol) and they target Wp, this makes them awesome to support Pandora when she engages half the enemy crew. And Mr Graves is also a bit of a semi-tank and hits pretty hard, this together with his ability to move both enemies and friendlies around makes him really good. I usually start with him pushing Pandora around (remember he can only do it once per turn on friendlies though) and later in the game I'm either pushing more enemies into Pandoras reach, or killing them outright.

They are usually a staple of my crews, together with the Primordial Magic and one sorrow, and then it depends on strategy and schemes for the rest how the exact composition looks.

 

So, try to make sure Perdita loses her buffs, kill both Francisco and Papa early, best of all is if you can blow papa up inside his crew. Then make sure to engage them with Pandoras awesome range of 3", keeping out of the enemy ranges as much as possible, especially Perditas and Franciscos, since they can both hit 3 times per activation otherwise. Killing the totem is also good, but since it often hides a bit far back, I don't over-extend to catch it, kill it if it exposes itself. And don't forget to play to the strategy and schemes, as many others have already pointed out, but that's very hard to do if Pandora and her family is running around freely.. Even engaging them for a few rounds while some other models (perhaps Silurids or Terror Tots) runs schemes can win you the game, even if you get Pandora killed.

[dgraz]

 

 

First off, how come Francisco has Wp8? he's only 6 on the card and he can't buff himself..   

Perdita's 'Aura Ancestral' Upgrade.......gives all family +2 Wp. Basically an auto-include if your opponent declares NB or Rezzer.

[Therril_83]

oh, right, forgot about that one..

 

That does indeed make Fransisco harder to kill, and increases the focus on killing Papa first (as he's still pretty low on the Wp department) to blow him up on the others. Then send in Illuminated to kill Fransisco, his Df is still only avarage. I'd say the only real difference is that you should try to focus Fransisco with something that target Df instead of Wp. Perdita doesn't herself benefit from the aura so she's down to her 7/7 when Fransisco dies.

[Adran]

Another thing to look at is Blast Damage. If Fransico is standing near to Perditia, to boost her, then hitting him with models that do blast damage is a good way to hurt her whilst ignoring her stats. You might have to look at Mercs like Lazarus or the specialist. Terror tots with Black blood also can help make a mess of the relatively low wounded but high stated models.

 

You know what your opponent is going to try, so look for counters. Silurids and Gupps can be safe from Austringers, and are certainly cabable of engaging them pretty quickly, and stopping what they normally do.

 

Francisco isn't that tough if you push him. A decent Slingshot on the Vik of Blood, or focused shot from Seamus can end him pretty quickly without the benifits of his (0).

Pandora up close to him and Perdita largely prevent a lot of their tricks. She doesn't use Ml, or Df, so deistro doesn't help.  Sure its still a brutal fight, but if he flurries you can move out his range if you win one. And if you keep making him take tests, he has to fail some.

 

And play for the victory, use some of your forces to tie him up, and the rest to get the VPs, before they come in and tie him up. You'll find by the end of the game you don't have much left, and you've probably not killed much, but hopefully ahve more VPs than your opponent.

[HowNot2Wargame]

Perdita's 'Aura Ancestral' Upgrade.......gives all family +2 Wp. Basically an auto-include if your opponent declares NB or Rezzer.

The other bit is that it allows Perdita to ignore targeting duels. Hence ignoring terrifying and manipulative.

[vulky]

We clog up the board good, I read the Pullmyfinger article on scenery. 

 

It just seems a little unfair that if you say Resser, Arcanist or Neverborn, and the oponent says Guild, he automatically has your hard counter as an option.

Best option really seems to be to run like 4 insidious madness (Still gonna die, Austringer Sh7 ignoring LoS, lol) and go for Schemes. But what happens when the shared mission and the schemes are mainly about damaging? Or making you oponent move in some way, they just aren't going to move.

 

Obviously we expect to get better as we play, but as of now I quote : "I just choose the model I want gone from the table and automatically remove it as casualty" (Perdita player)

[Kadeton]

Perdita's only got your 'hard counter' for Resser or Neverborn if you choose to focus on winning through lots of Wp duels. It's true that the Family generally has high Wp, but their average Df (except Perdita herself) isn't great, and their Wds are low.

 

Find ways around their defences - blow Francisco up with Ca or Sh attacks to break Perdita's invulnerability, get fast models into the Austringers' and Nino's faces, bypass stats with blast damage, impose twist penalties to Df or Wp flips, etc etc. Find weaknesses in your opponent's play style, and exploit them. You may not currently have all the tools you need in terms of model choices - try to think about what you need to do to beat Perdita and find a model that fits the role. This could mean more tanking, melee, range, speed, healing, different forms of attack, and so on.

 

Perdita hits hard, but she's a long way from "I just choose the model I want gone from the table and automatically remove it as casualty" (try playing against Leveticus for a demonstration of what real killing power looks like). Neverborn are probably one of her easier matchups (she's the Neverborn Hunter, after all) because they're generally pretty fragile and rely on other means of damage avoidance (which she mostly ignores), but that doesn't mean she's unstoppable.

 

Anyway, yes - you will get better as you all play and discover anti-Family strategies for yourselves. Keep at it!

[11th Thunder]

Pandora vs Perdita is a tricky match up, but far from unwinnable. The first thing I would suggest is focus on achieving strats and schemes. If you opponent wants to spend all his AP shooting at you incorporeal models doing them one or two damage a shot then that is his look out. You will be dropping scheme markers in that time and generally scoring VP!

 

It is true that some of the schemes require murderising things, stay away from those ones if you can. It is better to be delivering messages and powering rituals in this situation I think.

 

Of course Reckoning might still come up as the strategy, which means you need to murderise your foe. Generally, if reckoning is declared against anyone, I go for a beatstick list with one or two heavy hitters in it, minimising the amount of casualties my opponenet will be able to inflict. Pandora might have to play out of theme in this case, but if reckoning comes up and you pop down Pandora, backed up with Nekima, Bishop and a  couple of Teddies, then your opponent is gonna have a bad time! He might be able to gun down one of those models a turn with his line, but the scheme needs two. All in the meanwhile, Pandora can be zipping around behind her line of beatsticks dropping markers and laughing.

 

General murderising tips that you might have overlooked though - Pandora has the edge over Fransisco in melee I think, if you can get her and the Poltergeist into within 2 inches of him.

 

The giest is a lot easier to keep alive for this than people seem to think. Pandora can take a damage to reduce the damage the giest takes by one - Even on a strong hit Perdita will likely only do two damage to the totem because of incorporeal. If Perdita is ignoring Incorporeal, she is not also ignoring cover, so take that into consideration.

 

When you are then in melee with Fransisco, his WP 8 is all he has going for him. He is taking a negative flip because of the poltergiest and you are not, because your close attack action is a Ca action not a Ml action. Even if you hit him for weak, he will take 3 damage because of misery, more if your sorrows are close. And I would think you can usually cheat up to more than weak damage with your opponent on a negative twist!

 

Other tips I can give are get Bishop - I find he combos so well with Pandora it isn't even funny. He is a beasticky model that your opponent will have to invest time in putting down too, and whist those models do tend to go down at some point, it is eating AP that you opponent could be using for other things.

 

Candy probably isn't helping too much against Perdita, so maybe look at leaving her at home. She does have a decent heal though, and if you can get her close enough so that sweets or sours will go off that is gonna be awesome too.

 

If you are comfortable playing outside of theme, I recommend Slurids. They have a rule meaning their cover cannot be ignored and they have leap, which they can use to engage those damned Austringers and hopefully tie them up a bit. The same rule also prevents models from ignoring LoS to them,so the Austringers can't snipe them off the board first time they activate. They also give another negative twist if they haven't activated yet, so they are even harder to shoot against! They also come in Zoraida's box which ties into my next piece of advice.

 

Get another in faction master! I am aware this can be difficult if you have no monies, but it really is a big thing. Like you, when I started out, I went first for the masters that I liked the look of, faction be damned! This made it really easy for my regular opponents to tailor a list to defeating what they knew I would likely field. Imagine your friends face when you declare neverborn, and he is expecting to shoot Pandora off the table, but instead you play Zoraida, and every time he shoots down a Silurid, Bad Juju pops back out to say hello! Or he gets charged from behind a wall by Lilith and her big FS! I really recommend picking up Lilith, as If you play the Viks, Lilith can be a beatstick like them whilst you are still learning the rest of her tricks. If you don't want to expand Neverborn, other good options are the Friekorps for expanding your outcasts - Their shooting is almost as good as the families! Or Leveticus, because honestly, nothing melts face quite like Leveticus! I don't know much about Ressers, so can help you less there, although you could pick up McMourning, run him as Guild and take some Ausrtingers of your own

 

I hope all these wordings help you out some, Perdita can be a tricky fight, but don't let your friend put you off! You will beat her down one day and send him looking for the next OP thing to play.

[rsteelrose]

Francisco charges a model which Perdita cannot see -> Perdita shoots Francisco -> It's and engagement, roll for each model -> Can't roll for Francisco -> Instantly hit a model out of sight, who gets a (-) to def, cover is ignored.

 

I personally think that while this is a viable strategy, its pretty low and dirty. 

[Dirial]

I personally think that while this is a viable strategy, its pretty low and dirty. 

 

Because...?

[Reynard-Miri]

I can think of a few reasons. A big one is that it kind of falls under the second type of deception mentioned in the most recent Wyrd Chronicles: it's the kind of thing that most players won't realize can be done at first. And like the author says there, it's totally legit even though it leaves some players with a bad taste is their mouth. There's also the segregation of gameplay and story.

 

Question: Why would cover be ignored? (I don't have their cards.)

[Dirial]

Well, one should certainly point out that possibility to new players, but I see no deception here. It's not intuitive coming from other games, but the way Disengaging Strikes work is neither. It's a valid tactic.

 

Perdita can ignore Cover with a (0). If that's not what Vulky meant, I don't know either.

[dgraz]

 A big one is that it kind of falls under the second type of deception mentioned in the most recent Wyrd Chronicles

I'm really going to hate that article......because now everything is going to be compared to it. How the hell is this "deceptive"? The OP mentioned that he played many times, and you're not going to forget it after the first time it happens. Even the first time you do it, it isn't deceptive, it's a trick, a tactic......just like the first time you drop a Killjoy in the enemy lines.

[Reynard-Miri]

First off, deception (with the exception of lying) is not bad, at least in the context of Malifaux. It is pretty clearly built into the game. Secondly, the article literally says they aren't going to forget it after the first time. Thirdly, deception is both a trick and a tactic.

 

Also, thank you Dirial.

[dgraz]

I may be reading too much into it, but it appears my comment may have offended you.......that was not my intent.

 

Just because they're both tactics does not make it deception. Just because you won't forget it doesn't make it deceptive.........you're not likely to forget that Raspy ends your big melee killer's activation after the first time he hits her......that's not deception. When 'Dita Obeys Papa to move close to the enemy that's behind cover, then Obey's him to blow himself up is that Deception? She can't see the enemy but she can do big damage to them.

 

By your definition of deception, every tactic and ability is deception.

 

I personally agree that deception (with the exception of lying) is not bad.....I just don't care for such a broad definition of 'deception'.

[lusciousmccabe]

To be fair, the game has so much complicated interacting pieces that it would become unplayable if you had to make sure your opponent understands every single thing your crew can do before starting. Sometimes you can completely blow someone away with a combo and it feels really unsportsmanly, but it's hard to predict when that'll happen and it's equally poor sport to pull your punches because you're afraid of surprising your opponent.

 

I'm glad I chose not to read that article, it seemed like it was delving into an area where generalisations are completely pointless.

[vulky]

Today I played again, lost 7-6, 3 Insidious madness and 2 Silurids, then Pandora Candy and a Doppleganger (and Primordial magic).

Mission was the one with 5 markers in the middle line, Line on the sand and the other scheme that give you 1VP for each enemy in 3'' of your markers. I sent silurids and insidious madness to the flanks and the other 3 models to the center to engage Perdita and company so they couldnt shoot my runners. I set some markers making him think they were for line on the sand (which i revealed) then blew them up, 3 VP. At a point in the game I had controlled all 5 markers for the main mission, so it was going well. Then Perdita killed Candy and the Doppleganger in 1 turn (ignores Manipulative) and then Pandora on the next one. Pandora's situation was kinda ridiculous, having to choose a target from 3 possibilities : WP9, WP8, WP7 but Stubborn. 

Then he killed all my crew by turn 4 and used turn 5 to take all the markers and remove my line in the sand markers, would have been tie if game had ended in turn 5, but it went into 6.

I'm really thinking of buying Leveticus or Lilith (probably Leveticus because of the newer box).

 

Also it's not like he likes to stomp me and I have to beat him so he will go to the next OP thing ( as someone said) we play friendly, most of the time we laugh at the ridiculous of the situations. At the end of the game we were wondering what would happen with the game if Austringers didn't have Rare2: Declare Guild, any random master, then 8 Austringers (Kill one master/henchman per turn, minimum, no enemies by turn 3).

 

 

Also it does not matter if you engage the Austringers in melee, the Sh7 skill has no pistol icon (only if focused), this also means he ignores all miniatures when shooting into melee.

[dgraz]

Don't give up.....I spent almost a year trying to beat my friend's Seamus crew with Marcus. By the time I could no one else in the shop could touch me and I had to retire Marcus until M2E came out.

[Reynard-Miri]

It sounds like you did a lot better this time. If you like Pandora, I'd suggest you stick with her. If you constantly switch masters, then you'll never get enough experience with any of them. If you don't like Pandora's play style, then switching might be a good idea.

 

I may be reading too much into it, but it appears my comment may have offended you.......that was not my intent.

 

Just because they're both tactics does not make it deception. Just because you won't forget it doesn't make it deceptive.........you're not likely to forget that Raspy ends your big melee killer's activation after the first time he hits her......that's not deception. When 'Dita Obeys Papa to move close to the enemy that's behind cover, then Obey's him to blow himself up is that Deception? She can't see the enemy but she can do big damage to them.

 

By your definition of deception, every tactic and ability is deception.

 

I personally agree that deception (with the exception of lying) is not bad.....I just don't care for such a broad definition of 'deception'.

 

It was only deception in this case if public information was purposefully withheld from the opponent. Which I don't know if it was or not, but it might have been, which is why I included the phrase "kind of" in my original post. (Which was super unclear. Oops.)  The big thing, though, is that my original post was saying why a person might think that is was "pretty low and dirty." I posted the first two possibilities that popped into my head.

 

To answer your question, no, but not letting your opponent know that Obey can be used on your own models when you think that they don't know that would be deception. Like if I want them to walk into the middle of the border so that I can Obey Bad Juju up there. If I don't think they know I can do that and I don't tell them, then that would be deception. If they know I can do that, but don't think that's my plan, and I don't purposely do anything to make them think that that is not my plan, then it's not deception.

 

Sorry if that sounds angry. I can get... explainy sometimes, and it's hard for my to convey that through text very well.