How many Sorrows?

[Grantt]

I'm considering Pandora and her crew; I'm tempted to run lots of Sorrows. You get 3 in the crew box; should I get another 3 on top? 

 

I know they die fast, but I love the idea of dishing out 6 wounds per AP spent inflicting wp duels. I know that this is the ideal situation, but even if only half the models get there, 3 wounds per AP spent is pretty good. 

 

Thoughts?

[Dirial]

I don't think you'll need more than 3. Wait for Insidious Madness instead: Getting those Wp duels through is better than 2 more damage if it happens.

[Uktena]

Play with three before you try more. I love Pandora, but the Sorrows are a lead weight sometimes.

[rgarbonzo]

0 Sorrows and 3 Madness IMO.

[zFiend]

No more than three I think. 

[Bodiless]

Someone in the local area is running a pretty nasty (by report at least, haven't faced it myself) list with Pandora, Poltergeist, and 8 Sorrows. 

[zFiend]

Someone in the local area is running a pretty nasty (by report at least, haven't faced it myself) list with Pandora, Poltergeist, and 8 Sorrows. 

 

Uh, what? Could you maybe tell a bit more about these reports

[Bodiless]

I don't really have much in the way of detail. The one game I know about was against Gremlins (Brewmaster), and the Sorrow-ball was able to Misery Loves Company itself up the field and get itself mixed in with the Brew-ball. Gremlins ended up pulling out the win, but I know that several Gremlins one-shotted themselves by failing Wp checks. 

[Bengt]

"How many sorrows
Do you try to hide
In a world of illusions
That's covering your mind?"

[Therril_83]

I'm generally only using one when I play Pandora. My problem with them is that they are so passive that I don't want too many, they rarely do much in their own activation. I do quite often use them for scheme markers, since they can teleport up to ~10" away and be quite fast, but that's about it. In one game so far, I've managed to use Doldrums, by pushing with another model to get close enough, but it's a hard thing to set up imo.

 

Having more than one Sorrow tends to make me feel like I have too many activations that doesn't do anything. They are also so redicilously easy to kill that it becomes a pointsink quite easy, at 5ss per model. Most models cheaper than a Sorrow can kill it in one activation, and many models more expensive can kill two or more.

It may also be related to the fact that I prefer to not build her crew too heavily around Wp-duels. I prefer to have some good face beaters that don't rely on Pandora to do their thing. That enables me to put preassure on my opponent without having Pandora or Sorrows nearby.

 

I'm having the same problem with the Poltergeist actually. For a 5ss model that needs to be up front to do his thing (which is a very nasty thing, by the way), he's so easy to kill that he rarely survives the turn that he leaves cover.

[Uktena]

"How many sorrows

Do you try to hide

In a world of illusions

That's covering your mind?"

No more than three.

[The Godlyness]

"How many sorrows

ALL OF THE SORROWS.

No more than three.

see above.

[Csonti]

The ideal number is 0. IMO Sorrows are just not good enough for their price.

[Urion]

I use three because that is all I have right now, but if I had another box of them I'd probably run five in 50ss games. I prefer Pandora's passive playstyle. That is the whole reason to pick her. If you want face beaters go with Lilith and her Nephilim. Pandora is about subtly and passive aggressive play. I've tried using Baby Kade and a Teddy in most of my Pandora lists, but without fail they die by, at most, turn 3. They have yet to kill enough to justify their cost. I just played a game against a Shen Long crew and the second turn he killed both Teddy and Kade with the Lone Swordsman without taking a single wound in return, but then I killed five of his models in the next turn and another in the fourth turn then Shen Long. ALL using three Sorrows and Pandora.

[EnternalVoid]

For me I generally only take one Sorrow.  Its purpose is a mix of a lure, distraction, damage multiplier, and back up piece.  People know how annoying it is to get Pandora going with even one Sorrow around, as it greatly can increase her damage output.  So often it will get that extra bit of attention where people are willing to commit to stretching a little further or giving up AP from a good model to insure its destruction.  But if I need it I can often have it just use Misery Loves company twice to quickly move it across the board for a scheme purpose.

 

I have also got it to use Doldrum several times, often because it managed to sneak into the action and my opponent was to focused on Pandora.

 

As for the Poltergeist I have just stuck with the Primodial magic as it is cheaper and tends to do more for me in the end.  A single Sorrow generally does not draw as much attention as the Poltergeist does.  I know when I have played against it that I have made a point to get it removed before it can be to much of a threat.

[Math Mathonwy]

I think that the problem with them is that Incorporeal is so incredibly swingy. If there is good Ca damage dealers among the enemy, Sorrows are a huge liability but if there are none, they are surprisingly durable. But all factions can have Ca damage dealers so Sorrows are quite risky. Or at least that has been my experience with them on the receiving end (I've had my Sonnia wipe out three Sorrows in one activation quite easily).

[Kadeton]

Kirai suffers from the same problem, but manages to push through it with summoning - the inability to produce more Sorrows (come on, lady, just open the box!) is what makes them a risky investment.

[Gorbad]

The ideal number is 0. IMO Sorrows are just not good enough for their price.

 

I think they have some uses, but their use is mostly related to Misery Loves Company. That ability is actually really handy, and can make them surprisingly quick and able to both do schemes for you or be immensely frustrating for your opponent. Now they generally don't survive that, but that's okay, if they managed to slow my opponent down on an important turn/activation that can be worth it. However I do agree that the ideal number is probably between 0-2. You are going to have a hard time clustering the rest to a meaningful degree as well as forcing enough Wp tests for it to actually matter. And for all that they can be surprisingly speedy and flexible, that is all dependent on other models and it's a lot easier to arrange if you bring some other fast models of your own.

[thebarbalag]

I've run 3 and I've run 0 and had success with both.  With three, you really, really want something like a Beckoner/Kade to pull stuff in so you can keep everyone relatively tight, at least tight enough that Pandora can soak wounds for them. With Martyr, they're much more hardy and it's way easier to heal one Pandora, who is relatively unlikely to be wounded otherwise, with Candy, than it is to heal multiple Sorrows.

 

0 works fine, and gives you space for other, more active models, but I think it really comes down to playstyle. Both are effective. 0 may be simpler, as you don't have to think about positioning as much, and can spend more time just going crazy aggressive with Pandora not thinking about how the Sorrows will keep up, but at the same time, Inflict is much more fun when it pushes out 5 damage than it is when it's only 2...

[Hateful Darkblack]

Sorrows are great if you can get your opponent to promise not to kill them.

[Therril_83]

After this weekends tournament, where I faced a couple of crews that had some Companion/Accomplice to use, I really wished I would have had the possibility to companion the sorrows and pandora in some way. 

 

Wouldn't it be awesome if there was an upgrade to Pandora that gaves Sorrows Accomplice, so that you could move them up and then activate Pandora to actually use their aura? If that existed, I could definetly see myself taking more than 1 *wishful thinking*

 

I feel the most use I get out of my Sorrows these days is that my opponent targets them first if I move them into a good position. So they work in a sort of target saturation way, as my other models can often go without attention for a while longer if a Sorrow moves in.

[Csonti]

 

Wouldn't it be awesome if there was an upgrade to Pandora that gaves Sorrows Accomplice, so that you could move them up and then activate Pandora to actually use their aura? If that existed, I could definetly see myself taking more than 1 *wishful thinking*

 

Yeah, this would be certainly a good way to make them more usable. But probably even with that they would be overpriced for the package they could bring. It is not that you can't win a game if you bring some but for 5 SS you can get so much more from other models.

[Patzer]

The accomplice/companion problem can be solved with all the activation control Pandora's crew can provide (and Woes in generall in other crews). They are a tricky model to get right, but once you understand how to hide and position them well they can be brutal. I have a feeling that players in general are overlooking their potential as scheme marker droppers. To be fair, that might be a result of the Insidious Madness entering the scene.

 

If any new Sorrow upgrade for Pandora shall be made it must contain a summoning mechanic! "The Box Open 2.0", 2ss cos,. 6" , "after killing an enemy model, this model may spend a Soulstone to summon a sorrow in base contact with the enemy model before removing it." Sonnia-esque summoning. Don't think it would be balanaced at all since Pandora can kill stuff pretty easy and with an increasing number of Sorrows coming in it would just make things easier ^^.

[Vanilla_Dice]

I've found that getting pandora engaged late turn and then bringing sorrows in behind her, next turn (with help of doppelganger) get initiative and let pandora go to town, the 3" melee range means she can usually keep things engaged with her and outside their own melee range, and sorrows just provide damage multipliers.

[Malsqueek]

Pandora was my first master and I've been playing her since 1.0.

 

Sorrows are FAR more awesome than they have been since the initial cuddle which prevented them from skating along with Pandy (which was broken and wrong). Even with as good as they are, I only ever run 2-3 of them depending upon the scheme.

 

They are REALLY squishy, and are relatively one-dimensional. Sorrows shine when they act late-turn to dogpile a model or two which Pandora can follow up on first thing the next turn. In those conditions, Pandora can burn down nearly any model in the game with next to no effort. However, she can only be in one place at a time. Outside of their Misery aura, and Misery Loves Company to deliver it, pretty much any model in the Neverborn Line is a stronger pick.

 

As has been said earlier. Stick with the 3 that come with the set, proxy in 2 Insidious Madnesses, a pair of Stitched Together (or a pair of Waldgeists) and you will be doing yourself a far bigger favor than even a 4th Sorrow will do. You might peridoically find a good use for a 4th sorrow, but 5 and 6 will most likely gather dust after one or two go rounds.