Too Powerful? Valedictorian and Molly.

[chris_havoc]

Hi. So on Friday I tried out my new cards with my Molly crew and instead of the Necrotic Machine I decided to take Unnerving Aura and Necrotic Preparation on The Valedictorian. My crew contains 2 Doxies so it is relatively easy for Molly to keep up with The Valedictorian. This means that she had Black Blood most of the game too. My opponent found the combo very, very difficult to deal with while I did not have to do much at all. I think the problem was that with proper placement in combat each time The Valedictorian took damage the opponent took two wounds. The opponent was also unlikely to be able to move away meaning that it would take an extra two wounds after its activation. Obviously pushes and Lures are the best way to deal with this but for those crew that lack those abilities (I played against Kaeris) I'm not sure how someone might deal with this. My question is; is this combo broken/too powerful why/why not?

[Ausplosions]

Defensive stance.

Walk away.

[Kadeton]

What was your opponent playing?

There are lots of ways you could deal with this - high damage attacks, Black Blood, melee reach or immunity to pulses will all minimise the damage taken in killing the Valedictorian. Paralysing her (Nurses, Bishop, Pandora, etc) will allow everyone to disengage from her and leave her pretty useless. If all else fails, spreading your crew out and ignoring her will work to an extent - she can only engage and kill one model per turn at most. Hans can also shoot her upgrades off.

The Valedictorian is decently fast, tough and deadly, but I'm not sure what you think it is about her that makes her significantly worse than similar options - is it just the ability to take those two upgrades together and really punish people for attacking her?

[chris_havoc]

Most Df is 5. The Valedictorian has Ml 6 and + from Necrotic Preparation.

[chris_havoc]

Yes those two upgrades on a model that has a 3" Ml range, good Ml stat of 6, fast moving, and tough. By herself and with either upgrade I don't think it would be an issue. The combination of all three and Black Blood ia problematic. Like I said he was playing Kaeris. With Gunsmiths, Firestarter, Eternal Flame and Fire Gamin.

[Dirial]

Seems roughly the same as Izamu with Unnerving Aura.

 

I think lighting her on fire and letting her burn to crisp would have been my choice with Kaeris.

[Kadeton]

(All of the following is from memory of the cards, so apologies if I mis-remember any details.)

So if Kaeris has her healing upgrade, she can mitigate most of the damage from the various auras on whoever is caught in them. If she has Grab & Drop instead, she can just drop the Valedictorian away from her models. Either way, she could also pile on the Burning and kill the Valedictorian really fast, with minimal impact through damage auras - two turns of Kaeris and the Firestarter should do it easily.

I have to say that your opponent's crew doesn't seem particularly well chosen for most Schemes - it seems very focused on killing with firepower at range. Some faster models would allow them to basically play around the Valedictorian - she could engage one or two, but the rest of the crew would be free to roam.

[Sholto]

Apart from the Fire Gamin that crew is just as good in melee as it is at range, so I don't think that is the issue. The Captain would have been a good choice - he usually is

[Patzer]

Nothing in your opponents crew were though enough to deal with the Valedictorian (even without the buffs from Molly). It seems like your opponent should have either fed your models (or tossing out Kaeirs' flame markers) while going for schemes or bring a beater who can match the Valedictorian in your next game.

[Lucidicide]

It is worth noting that the Valedictorian is very, very good for its cost, and arguably the tankiest model in the game with Terrifying, Armor, Hard to Wound, and it's a Henchman. That coupled with a very good (0), an Ml 6, a trigger to get positive flips on damage, and a potent severe damage means that you can't just sit in combat with it and killing it is difficult. Since it moves quickly and has Flight, you won't exactly just avoid it either.

 

While I agree that there are solutions here, I think it's also worthwhile to acknowledge that the Valedictorian IS going to be frustrating to deal with 99% of the time.

[Sholto]

The other point to bear in mind is that tanky models are worse than you think in a Molly crew. If she can make you sit in melee with something, you can guarantee that melee is getting worse every Turn as Molly summons Punk Zombies into the fray. Go for Molly, put her under threat. The Valedictorian might have to turn back and help out because Molly does not like being targeted.

[zFiend]

I don't think Molly has any problems being targeted. She is one insanely durable master.

[MasterDisaster]

Could be worse I guess... Imagine having the Valedictorian given Fast then being buried by Tara only to re-appear later in the turn even closer than before after being unburied and launched at you by Tara to chew your face off with the previously mentioned upgrades. Still, given the Valedictorians fairly durable nature she's not going to last forever under sustained assault. I don't think she is one of the Tankiest models in the game, not by a long shot but she is a pain for sure! With Kaeris and Firestarter in tow you can easily pile put a good Burning +10 in one turn with some decent flips or control hand to cheat with. That's going to seriously ruin the Valedictorian's day! 

[bertmac]

When playing arcanists i find most problems are solved by joss. Certainly gave the valedictorian a kicking when i played a hardcore game with him against her! With the crew your opponent had i would probably have tried feed her a fire gamin then kill from range with kaeris and or a gunsmith.

[Kadeton]

Apart from the Fire Gamin that crew is just as good in melee as it is at range, so I don't think that is the issue. The Captain would have been a good choice - he usually is

 

Yeah, that wasn't at all the point I was trying to make.

 

What I meant was that the crew is slow and focused on putting out damage, getting into fights. That's the Valedictorian's preferred environment. If the crew had models that could scatter quickly across the board instead, you could get all your strategies and schemes done regardless of what the enemy crew was doing.

[Sholto]

Yeah, that wasn't at all the point I was trying to make.

 

What I meant was that the crew is slow and focused on putting out damage, getting into fights. That's the Valedictorian's preferred environment. If the crew had models that could scatter quickly across the board instead, you could get all your strategies and schemes done regardless of what the enemy crew was doing.

 

You are quite right, although we don't know what the Strat and Schemes were, of course.

 

I don't think Molly has any problems being targeted. She is one insanely durable master.

 

Our experiences certainly differ, then. Df and Wp 6 are great, but high Weak damage greatly reduces the usefulness of her Impossible to Wound, and throwing away two cards to reduce Dg to 1 is great when you get Red Jokered, but not when someone is Flurrying on you.

 

Mind you, I am more used to playing Colette, so that is my baseline for 'survivable'

[Myyrä]

In my books, master is survivable, when it's not worth the effort to kill it. That doesn't even always mean that killing the master would be difficult.

[Brightmore]

After playing Molly for the first time, I will fully agree that the combo is strong. 

 

Though some if it comes down to what your opponent was playing. Black Blood off the start is very beatable, just use your melee reach from your melee specialists and fight from outside it's range. Necrotic Preperation makes it hard for Minions to hang against the Valedictorian, but to be fair considering the points cost, nothing but a dedicated beater is going to actually have a good shot at breaking the Valedictorian.

 

How to cope really depends on the crew, and faction. There are generally only three ways to deal with a big nasty model like that.

 

1) Bring your own big nasty model, the Valedictorian is amazing, but so are Peace Keepers, Hooded Rider, Hank, Killjoy et all. Even if your beater doesn't one round the Valedictorian, you are likely to either strip all of their stones, or have the Valedictorian hurt enough that you can kill it later, or force them into some inefficient healing play to try to restart the power of the Valedictorian. 

 

2) Control him. Being largely a melee threat being able to manipulate the Valedictorians position, and APs can be incredibly punishing. Have your Cherub shoot him push him and slow him, Paralyze him with your own nurse. Stack Fees up on him from your guild lawyer, lure him to a bad spot with your beckoners. Hit him with mood swing, and have Candy Paralyze him, etc

 

3) Combo him. This is much more master specific so isn't always available. Stick a McGabe power minion missile to him.  Stick a fully buffed Victoria of Blood to him. Use Guild MCM to give your shooting unites precise, and apply damage through all but terrifying early so when you get stuck in. Have Nicodem hit him with Rigor Mortis every turn, so 1 hp means he gets to do very little very turn.

 

It can be tricky, but well within the realm of doable. 

 

Also as far as Resser masters go, Molly isn't that tough. Masterful Dead is very resource intensive to do, in a Faction that is already resource intensive. You generally only get to convert 1 hit a turn into 1 damage maybe. Damage can stack up on her very quickly, and without an innate healing mechanic, and rules that demand her to be forward, it can get dicey. 

[chris_havoc]

Yeah I agree for sure that The Captain would have been a great addition but he is waiting for models so as not to proxy. I forgot to say that Johana was also in his crew. My opponent knows he made a mistake in scheme selection and chose Power Ritual but our Strategy was Squatters Rights. OK so basically Kaeris has The Captain and Joss to deal with these types of combos. Although bear in mind that he may have no idea I am playing the combo when we choose crews. So whichever of those models would also have to make sense in the crew as a whole.

As for Tara's Valedictorian it's probably still not as bad as Molly because she has her (0) which essentially gives The Valedictorian Fast. It can probably get up the table faster but Doxies/Necrotic Machine make Molly's Valedictorian comprable in speed. Way more points invested in it and also only effective from Turn 2 so I guess more likely to be considered on par with each other.

 

I have been thinking of my answer specifically regarding Arcanists and Relentless models are fantastic whenever your opponent declares Ressers. Which of the Arcanist models have that? Also like it's been said The Captain really works given he is Agile and does pushes. Langston and Joss are also crazy good. These options are quite expensive though so any cheaper options?

[Mason]

Johan and the Captain are both pretty good against Ressers, as there are a fair number of constructs (such as the Valedictorian) for them to pummel with their Relic Hammers.  Even without opposing constructs, they're pretty solid models.  

The Ice Golem is another option to look at, as his Smash attack is pretty capable of killing just about anything if you save up a high card for it.  The weak damage is so high that you don't even have to worry about hitting the enemy very well; even a glancing blow is going to be brutal.  Plus, his armor makes him a pretty effective front line combatant, he's immune to Horror, and his normal attack can hand out Slow to other melee threats he engages with. 

 

With Kaeris, Grab and Drop would be the way to go, I think.  Not only can it hand out a pretty good amount of damage as a free action, it also lets Kaeris reposition the enemy, which can help get around the lock-down situations that Ressers like to create.

 

I've found that Howard Langston tends to be pretty good against elite Resser lists, as his decapitate trigger can take out threats in one swing, or at the very least, bleed cards that the resource-intensive Resser masters would rather keep in their hands.  He's also got high enough minimum damage that Hard to Wound won't be quite the annoyance that it is with other models. 

 

December Acolytes are another model worth considering.  They're pretty good in most matchups, but their Drag trigger is good for pulling enemy (or friendly) models out of combat, and they can remove Hard to Wound and Armor in a wide radius around them, thus taking away the durability of most Resser models (especially the Iron Zombies).  They also hand out Slow like it's candy at a parade and can force discards, both useful abilities against any opponent. 

 

Joss is good for many of the same reasons.  He's a tough beatstick that ignores armor, hard to wound, and hard to kill with a high damage spread, making him capable of cutting down undead quite easily.  If you get stuck in with a particularly tough model, he can use his Pneumatic Fist to deal some serious damage...and possible even paralyze the opponent afterwards, just to add insult to injury. 

 

Sabertooth Cerberus is also pretty solid, with the Leap and Stalk abilities to escape combats he doesn't want to be in, an innate   to attack and damage flips if he's healthy, and a high-damage attack with a trigger for additional attacks.   They're just brutal beasts. 

 

 

 

Those are some options you might want to have your friend consider next time he's up against Ressers.  The Arcanists definitely have answers to that sort of problem, but just tossing Burning onto undead and hoping they go up in fire usually isn't the most efficient way to go about it.   Other than that, just keep the strategy and schemes in mind, and don't be afraid to run away from scary models that are trying to get into a fight with you. 

[rover1013]

Off the top of my head, outside of mercs, the only immunity to horror duels in arcanists is frozen heart.

 

And kaeris without pushes!?! Heresy!

[Myyrä]

Off the top of my head, outside of mercs, the only immunity to horror duels in arcanists is frozen heart.

Mei Feng is immune to Paralyzed and Kang has Horror Immunity .

[brdparker]

Also remember Counterspell that can be tacked onto Henchmen (such as the Captain). It will make it so he can't be lured, and the doxy "lure" will have to flip/cheat a precious crow to get off (and nullifies the trigger as well).

[kross1]

Kang is only Ten Thunder, he is Foundry and the reason why Me i Feng can take him.

[DeleteAccount]

I'll add another echo of "go for Molly", really, she isn't that hard to kill, and at the very least, if she tries to stay alive, it utterly destroys her hand, a couple of good hits will really put the fear of god into her. I also thought Molly was a tough cookie till I noticed she always had to be too close for comfort and people actually stopped worrying about how supposedly hard she is and just went for her neck, she dies, and she dies quicker than you think, specially if you actually use your hand.