LordZombie Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 To be fair, they are all paperweights right now. Poor Hoffman didn't even get a chance to be an avatar. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathnard Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Just thinking aloud here, but what if the manifest requirements were dropped altogether and Masters could just manifest at the beginning of their activation from turn 2 onwards? The manifest event itself would encourage players to manifest when it would benefit them most, and they could be sure of actually getting some use out of their models. It's a little less thematic but damn - it'd be a hell of alot easier to balance. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(Sarcasm) Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 @Spiralingcadaver I didn't mean fully fledged cards like Warmachine has, the upgrades would be enough alteration as can be seen in many of the current upgrades that drastically change the way a master plays such as the dreamer's 'summoning' or 'killy' option upgrades Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathnard Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Another random thought (you can't stop me, I'm a mod! Mwahahaha! ); One of the (few) thinks I like about Warmachine are the themed "Tier Lists" that are available for each faction, which basically let you trade list restrictions for in-game bonuses and additional units the Warcaster couldn't normally take. Translating those rules into Malifaux has never really been an option (there's plenty enough reason to take themed crews as is), but maybe, just maybe this could be incorporated in some fashion into the Avatar upgrades? There's already been some element of it with models like Avatar Sonnia gaining access to Fire Gamin, but it could certainly be expanded. Perhaps Avatar Ramos can hire out of faction Constructs as if they were Mercs? Or Avatar Perdita loses access to non-family in exchange for gaining something like Infiltration: Nephilim? In a similar sense, Taking an Avatar (or perhaps even just Manifesting) could also add disadvantages like removng certain actions or abilities in exchange for others. It doesn't need to be anything too dramatic, but it would certainly add an interesting dynamic to taking Avatars? Like I said, just thinking aloud. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drool_bucket Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 I agree that attempting to add 39 Masters to a game with 39 Masters (my math may be off, I've been drinking) in which the Avatar is a completely new concept with new Crew restrictions and abilities is too much. I am still not understanding why Avatars can't be what they are, an upgrade offered to the player to Manifest and then have additional "power." I don't agree that Avatar Upgrades should be "worth" their face down value, instead I feel their "face up" value should be worth their Manifest requirements which are already set forth in the M2e book plus the cost of the upgrade. and when it comes to the "collecting models" discussion, my answer remains the same. This is a Skirmish game that "requires" very few models to actually play (at a competitive level, mind you) and if some people want access to their "favorite Master's" alter ego in some of the games they play good for them, let's give it to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 I had suggested something similar early in the thread. I think avatars are a place to bring additional thematic elements to a crew through an upgrade and essentially a give take that is balanced around the gains and loses from the set. Again as this would allow for great narrative campaign style play and be viable in more of the base game without creating new masters or other such interactions. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 An expensive, large and centrepiece model, that you no doubt spent a deal of time on assembling and painting, that you sacrifice one of your upgrade slots for, that you can use for one single activation in a game seems like a good way to create the most expensive paperwieights in wargaming. I don't know, quite a few of Games Workshop's named characters are both very expensive and very paperweight-y, so the competition is stiff. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daysleeper Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 I think the big issue is to design the avatars in a way that they are neither auto include nor drasticly underpowered. I feel to achieve this with a variety of manifest variations and so much different masters (and their playstyles) is realy realy hard and i kinda fear them being autoincludes that you can't effectivly win against without your own avatar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r4st4f4n Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Pretty sure an unpopular idea, but I'd prefer Avatars to be Special Encounters models like the Carver and Hanging Tree, in Avatar vs. Avatar matches, maybe even triggered by a Magic Surge, or from the start already. Since each of the 39 Masters has a different exploitation of the game resources, there is no way to create manifest requirements equally balanced for all of them. Add to that survivability, as some are a lot less inclined to be possibly killed before taking the most of all the 5 Turns, while others are suited to expend their lives earlier in the game. There will be inevitably someone that almost always manifests(which kills the imagination of it being an extra-ordinary occurence), because the price-benefit ratio is on the positive side, then there'll be the 50-50 balanced and the less positive ones that will manifest a lot less, or, worse, will be forced to carry the Avatar and manifest when facing the first ones, otherwise play an handicap match... I find Avatars a very tough implementation for Standard Encounters, since they aren't a new model to hire, but one that supersedes the one you always hire with a stronger one... The only game resource that has almost the same value amongst all the 39 of them, is a-Turn-being-in-play (not even the single activation, as some can easily bypass this), still it is such a scarce one, that all the solutions that come to my mind go towards special ruled Encounters... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausplosions Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Again, specific encounter only Avatars are not a route that should be taken. How about we stop saying they can't be balanced for regular play before seeing the changes made by Justin? It just seems that people gong in saying "remove them from regular play" is a little defeatist without first having seen any information... 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 I agree with 'the purple one'.........to quote Justin yet again in this thread: I am instituting some major changes which will, hopefully, address all issues. MAJOR CHANGES......let's just see what they are before saying it can't be done. All of the ideas I've seen so far have been cool to read, some more than others.....but again, kind of a waste of time without having any knowledge about what direction Avatars are taking. (But it is fun guessing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 The information we have, although hearsay, is that that IS the route Justin was potentially going. So if isn't defeatist to say that that is a prefered direction because of the issues we had last time around. Even with the burnout, even with the Avatars that were close to "done" there were constant complaints that they didn't "feel" like an Avatar, and that people didn't want to pay $30 plus for essentially something that could be accomplished via a piece of cardboard with a minimal amount of text, and a different base size. I Personally heard plans from a player or two I know that if the Avatars were released as they were they weren't going to buy any of them. They'd just photocopy and print the card from te next book and just put their master ontop of the new appropriate base once they manifested because they didn't like the tax of having to pay so much money for a single upgrade on par with Arcane Reservoir. So no it isn't defeatist. Its totally cool and valid that you want to somehow utilize avatars for regular play. Totally reasonable. However its totally reasonable for those of us who feel that the design requirements of the Avatars, through testing multiple iterations of rules, just do not function or improve the game, and therefore feel utilizing them in a varient way to play the game which allows them to fulfill their design goals is a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgraz Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Except that taking hearsay as gospel is stupid. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathnard Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Don't make me put on my Mod hat guys. Keep it civil and respect other's opinions. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausplosions Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 Anecdotal statements from 3 of your gaming mates shouldn't be used by you to influence decisions here. So again. How about we just cool our jets and stop trying to have people flock to our respective banners just yet. Plenty of time for "Wall O text" dissertations on why you don't like Avatars once we actually see rules... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker Barrows Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 (edited) Pretty sure an unpopular idea, but I'd prefer Avatars to be Special Encounters models like the Carver and Hanging Tree, in Avatar vs. Avatar matches, maybe even triggered by a Magic Surge, or from the start already. Since each of the 39 Masters has a different exploitation of the game resources, there is no way to create manifest requirements equally balanced for all of them. Add to that survivability, as some are a lot less inclined to be possibly killed before taking the most of all the 5 Turns, while others are suited to expend their lives earlier in the game. There will be inevitably someone that almost always manifests(which kills the imagination of it being an extra-ordinary occurence), because the price-benefit ratio is on the positive side, then there'll be the 50-50 balanced and the less positive ones that will manifest a lot less, or, worse, will be forced to carry the Avatar and manifest when facing the first ones, otherwise play an handicap match... I find Avatars a very tough implementation for Standard Encounters, since they aren't a new model to hire, but one that supersedes the one you always hire with a stronger one... The only game resource that has almost the same value amongst all the 39 of them, is a-Turn-being-in-play (not even the single activation, as some can easily bypass this), still it is such a scarce one, that all the solutions that come to my mind go towards special ruled Encounters... I have a few Avatars because I think they're cool, but nothing would kill my desire to get the rest than this idea. $40 for a model I will only have a chance to use special scenarios is not worth it. The information we have, although hearsay, is that that IS the route Justin was potentially going. So if isn't defeatist to say that that is a prefered direction because of the issues we had last time around. Even with the burnout, even with the Avatars that were close to "done" there were constant complaints that they didn't "feel" like an Avatar, and that people didn't want to pay $30 plus for essentially something that could be accomplished via a piece of cardboard with a minimal amount of text, and a different base size. I Personally heard plans from a player or two I know that if the Avatars were released as they were they weren't going to buy any of them. They'd just photocopy and print the card from te next book and just put their master ontop of the new appropriate base once they manifested because they didn't like the tax of having to pay so much money for a single upgrade on par with Arcane Reservoir. So no it isn't defeatist. Its totally cool and valid that you want to somehow utilize avatars for regular play. Totally reasonable. However its totally reasonable for those of us who feel that the design requirements of the Avatars, through testing multiple iterations of rules, just do not function or improve the game, and therefore feel utilizing them in a varient way to play the game which allows them to fulfill their design goals is a good idea. I'm not sure what the problem is here. No matter how incredible they are, they can still be be proxied. I guess I'm saying, I'm not sure what's "feel" like an Avatar? Power? If it is, I think we're stuck in a scenario where some side is going to be unhappy. One side will see buying Avatars a waste if they are not super-powerful. The other side will see buying them a waste if they can use them only in special scenarios. I'm not sure if there is a solution that will make everyone happy. Regardless of what Wyrd decides, hopefully, the result will be suitable for everyone in the long run. EDIT: For grammar. Edited October 18, 2014 by ABoyNamedSue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted October 18, 2014 Report Share Posted October 18, 2014 In not hoping they are super powerful. If a single one is auto include Ill be very unhappy. I don't want to have to tell anyone who gets into the game, "well this master is ok without the avatar, but really if you want your master to be te best it can you have to buy this $30.00 dollar miniature and make part of you game plan every game getting it out." I'm personally in the make them 100% balanced even if it makes them boring as hell or all do exactly the same thing. I do not want them upending the overall benefits the second edition brought to te game just because we 'have' to make them a part of the game. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hateful Darkblack Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 I have heard (or I'm pretending to have heard) that the Avatar card text will just be the regular card text, translated into French. I don't want to pay $40 extra for the same card text translated into French, so I'm conditionally demanding that this change get reversed. I don't even know French! 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausplosions Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 I have heard (or I'm pretending to have heard) that the Avatar card text will just be the regular card text, translated into French. I don't want to pay $40 extra for the same card text translated into French, so I'm conditionally demanding that this change get reversed. I don't even know French! Well I will only play Avatars if the card IS in French. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kadeton Posted October 19, 2014 Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Well I will only play Avatars if the card IS in French. OMG, French is so OP. It would be so much more balanced if the cards were in Finnish. Wyrd, plz nerf French. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Justin Posted October 19, 2014 Popular Post Report Share Posted October 19, 2014 Les gars, laisse être raisonnable ici . Nous savons tous les avatars seront imprimés en russe . EN RUSSE! 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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