Wyrd and QC

[r4st4f4n]

Just to try and beat 'em to the draw, Mr.Graves is Ht3 on his card, Sensei Yu is supposed to be Ht2... Lending an eye to the two of them when moulding ShenLong box... *hint* *hint*

[DocSchlock]

Since HT is abstract in Malifaux, actual model height has never really bothered me, but I can see what you're saying.

[paradoxstorm]

Errata/FAQ are released bimonthly (odd months) and downloadable from http://wyrd-games.net/community/files/file/21-malifaux-2e-faq-errata/

As such, it is easier to keep up-to-date with the errata/FAQ unlike previously when you'd have to check the rules forums regularly to do so.

In my experience, QC and editing are both much more difficult than they seem on the surface, and require a particular skillset to be able to do accurately and quickly - this is why it is possible to hire professional editors - which would be why some things are being missed before release (particularly things like the Arsenal Decks and figure scale)

 

First, props to Wyrd for getting the errata organized into a single location.  I was not aware it was ever done otherwise.

 

No matter how easy it is to get to the errata the more casual players will likely not bother--or simply will not know that it exists.   An active henchman or two at the local store can ease the problem in their location, but the frustration of typos on cards/rules is still going to be as I described for those who drift towards the casual end of playing.  (And many newbs.)

 

Editing and QC are indeed difficult--I certainly never intended to question that.  The challenge in companies both large and small is thinking of QC as cost savings and revenue generation rather than as an added expense.  

 

Hiring an outside reader for Crossroads, on the surface, feels like an unnecessary expense--the guys doing the writing/editing are good guys who are likely very talented.  But as others have already pointed out, finding/fixing errors doesn't work when you are overly familiar with the work.  I read a lot of papers that have been written by teams of well educated people and the number of problems I find is often fairly large, and is never zero.  

 

This is an area where Wyrd needs to find a way to get outside help for proof reading and such.  I'm not thinking a permanent staff member as they shouldn't need that much work of this sort, but some sort of consultants that can be hired on an "as needed" basis. (see those replying to this thread as a starting point.  Most would work for product and public acknowledgement of their contribution.)

 

The number of errors will never drop to zero, but cutting them by 30% or more will help the revenue stream and reduce any costs that may be associated with error correction downstream.  

[zFiend]

Not sure if this is the right place for this but I must say that the amount of pieces the models have really make it advanced level of modeling rather than gaming miniatures. While the game itself is amazing, the miniatures made for the game are horrendous nowadays, I thought that some of the old crew boxes where said to be because of them being so new and among the first (Yan Lo for example) but now, many years later they release a box that is far worse (Som'er). Where Yan Lo might have been a pain to assemble, Som'er box was that many times over. Where Yan Lo after assembly can withhold transportation and actual gaming, the Som'er box doesn't (Skeeters are truly unplayable and untransportable in a normal gamers setting). I just got my Governor's Proxy today, after months of delay, opened it and saw that it was again, in 14 pieces with some very small pieces and just closed the box and shoved it in a drawer. 

 

I have majority of the Rezzer faction in metal, I have a lot of Guild in metal and plastic as well. But unless something changes with the plastics drastically, I am soon going to just stop buying them. They really have started to feel like a waste of money, effort and time. Why would I paint up a model only for it to break when I want to use it in it's main purpose, gaming. Also the models not fitting their bases is getting out of hand. Playing a game where you need to play a 30mm base and be strict about it becomes kinda bad when the model could be on two consecutive 30mm bases. Or it overlaps bases of other models and they become tangled with each other, they are not really serving their purpose then.

[Vaiuri]

I would proofread for free if I thought it would help :-)

[WookieeGunner]

I don't know Wyrd's production methods but I've dealt with production in other environments.  In regards to how Zoriada's card could be oopsied, the fact of the matter is the file the printer uses for Zoriada's box is most likely different than for the Neverborne Wave 1.  When you do mass printing like that you just printed the pieces you need over and over so that they are pre-sorted after you cut them out into just what you need for each box.

[SpiralngCadavr]

It's got nothing to do with the printer. If there's an error with the information in the files sent to the printer, it's the sender's issue, not the printer's, and there's no reason they should be familiar with the content (it's great if they can skim through and see any cropping issues, etc).

 

What confuses me is, why wouldn't Wyrd have just copied the relevant cards in, and copied the relevant new art in?

[solkan]

It's got nothing to do with the printer. If there's an error with the information in the files sent to the printer, it's the sender's issue, not the printer's, and there's no reason they should be familiar with the content (it's great if they can skim through and see any cropping issues, etc).

 

What confuses me is, why wouldn't Wyrd have just copied the relevant cards in, and copied the relevant new art in?

 

That's an amazing amount of optimism about the card generation process...

 

Depending on how they set up the files for the cards, "just copy the new art in" is easier said than done.  Did they generate the cards in Photoshop with the image on one layer, the health bullets in another, and the various text portions on their own?  Or did the perspon responsible open the file, gasp at the horrorific organization, and think, "What on Earth was so-and-so thinking when they did this card.  Oh, well, it'll only take me a few minutes to redo it from scratch," and then proceed to grab the wrong entry from the card spreadsheet.

 

If they had redo the sheet of cards that that particular one was one, then the just-quick-redo-the-card-but-grab-the-wrong-data hypothesis gets even more likely.

 

Disclaimer:  I'm just wriing from personal experience where I've caused similar errors in a multi-media project because the process that would have avoided the error was twice the work and three times as tedious. 

[admiralvorkraft]

I'm new to the game, but I've done copy editing and formatting for everything from fiction to submissions to scientific journals. My passion is for writing but my rates for editing are competitive. I've also done work for construction companies justifying records across multiple spreadsheets, so making sure the numbers all match has become something of a forte of mine.

I'm sure Wyrd isn't taking to their forums to look for workers, but as a freelance writer I'm obligated to throw my hat in the ring.

[MightyGodzilla]

Hire a QC person.  A person who knows it's their job to do QC.  Show them what they need to catch and in what stages of production and make them do their job.

Or

Slap stickers on all of the product with the link to the errata page.

[Kadeton]

Not sure if this is the right place for this but I must say that the amount of pieces the models have really make it advanced level of modeling rather than gaming miniatures.

Unless something changes with the plastics drastically, I am soon going to just stop buying them. They really have started to feel like a waste of money, effort and time.

I talked to Nathan about this at Gencon, and he had similar complaints - the models are separated into parts by the casting company, and the one they were using did nothing to minimize the number of parts on sprue. They've just switched to a new company, and if I remember correctly, the first model by them is Miss Ery - who comes in six easy-to-assemble pieces. I agree that there have been some shockers in the past, but hopefully the future is brighter.

[Inquisitor Wall]

@kadeton That is great to hear. While the models do look great completed, I can sympathize with the frustration people have been having with the number of tiny pieces. They are very daunting to many newer players and make it difficult to get new players into the game.

[Ausplosions]

I do not understand how anyone breaks models while playing a game.

I would say it is likely you are too rough with them.

They are not action figures. If you are breaking them, the fault is yours, not the model.

[Ratsmitglied]

First, props to Wyrd for getting the errata organized into a single location.  I was not aware it was ever done otherwise.

 

No matter how easy it is to get to the errata the more casual players will likely not bother--or simply will not know that it exists.   An active henchman or two at the local store can ease the problem in their location, but the frustration of typos on cards/rules is still going to be as I described for those who drift towards the casual end of playing.  (And many newbs.)

 

Editing and QC are indeed difficult--I certainly never intended to question that.  The challenge in companies both large and small is thinking of QC as cost savings and revenue generation rather than as an added expense.  

 

Hiring an outside reader for Crossroads, on the surface, feels like an unnecessary expense--the guys doing the writing/editing are good guys who are likely very talented.  But as others have already pointed out, finding/fixing errors doesn't work when you are overly familiar with the work.  I read a lot of papers that have been written by teams of well educated people and the number of problems I find is often fairly large, and is never zero.  

 

This is an area where Wyrd needs to find a way to get outside help for proof reading and such.  I'm not thinking a permanent staff member as they shouldn't need that much work of this sort, but some sort of consultants that can be hired on an "as needed" basis. (see those replying to this thread as a starting point.  Most would work for product and public acknowledgement of their contribution.)

 

The number of errors will never drop to zero, but cutting them by 30% or more will help the revenue stream and reduce any costs that may be associated with error correction downstream.

I never intended to imply that you were saying that QC and Proofreading weren't difficult - I was just pointing out that Wyrd have already made improvements to their Errata and FAQ procedure (the other point was in response to other posts in the thread). If they could find a way to hire proofreaders for books on an as-needed basis then this would be the ideal solution.

@Kadeton - that is great news, hopefully this change will also reduce the cost to Wyrd (as a simpler mould should, in theory, cost less to create and there is less risk of the mould needing to be recreated due to an error).

[SpiralngCadavr]

That's an amazing amount of optimism about the card generation process...

 

 Did they generate the cards in Photoshop with the image on one layer, the health bullets in another, and the various text portions on their own?  Or did the perspon responsible open the file, gasp at the horrorific organization, and think, "What on Earth was so-and-so thinking when they did this card.  Oh, well, it'll only take me a few minutes to redo it from scratch," and then proceed to grab the wrong entry from the card spreadsheet.

Looking at how the PDFs they've released are composed (particularly the 1st beta run which didn't have password-protected content, so you can easily see the parts they made it out of), with fairly in-depth knowledge of design software, it's pretty easy to see how the files were constructed, and it doesn't look like a labyrinthine mess.

[paradoxstorm]

I never intended to imply that you were saying that QC and Proofreading weren't difficult - I was just pointing out that Wyrd have already made improvements to their Errata and FAQ procedure (the other point was in response to other posts in the thread). If they could find a way to hire proofreaders for books on an as-needed basis then this would be the ideal solution.

 

 

Fair enough.  We're good then.

[EmperorNorton]

We are certainly not ignoring any criticism.

 

So I am getting a replacement or a refund for the faulty miniatures you sent me as part of the eleven months late Kickstarter?

Fantastic!

[Vaiuri]

So I am getting a replacement or a refund for the faulty miniatures you sent me as part of the eleven months late Kickstarter?

Fantastic!

Send it to me and I'll refund your backing contribution! I'll even pay for postage :-D

[Ausplosions]

So I am getting a replacement or a refund for the faulty miniatures you sent me as part of the eleven months late Kickstarter?

Fantastic!

 

 

1: It's not late. KS deliveries are always an estimated time frame. When you pledge, you surely read the section on "risks". There are always risks when you are funding a kickstarter. Yours just happened to be late. 

 

2: Your miniatures are usable for the purpose. They are just slightly bigger. Is it annoying? I bet it is. But faulty? No.

 

3: You still have 22 other miniatures that are fine. MUCH more than was originally promised. So I guess you have come out ahead in that regard. 

 

 

Maybe Wyrd should be asking YOU for more money for the extras?

[EmperorNorton]

1: It's not late. [...] Yours just happened to be late. 

 

Sure, if you put it that way...

Reading the Kickstarter terms I know they can not legally be held accountable for being late, but reading Wyrd's statement: "We put September 2013 in order to give us enough time to get things right, but our goal is to actually deliver it sooner without breaking any promises or dates." Yes, they are late, no matter how much you try to spin it.

 

 

2: Your miniatures are usable for the purpose. They are just slightly bigger. Is it annoying? I bet it is. But faulty? No.

 

Bottle caps or buttons or small rocks would be usable for the purpose you describe. The whole point of miniatures is their aesthetics. Wrong proportions and scale detract from that. Hence they are faulty.

 

3: You still have 22 other miniatures that are fine. MUCH more than was originally promised. So I guess you have come out ahead in that regard. 

 

 

Maybe Wyrd should be asking YOU for more money for the extras?

 

11, actually. And I'd rather have four of each kind that I see as fit for purpose. You know, what I agreed to when I decided to back their project based on the information they provided.

Wyrd are welcome to ask ME for more money for the extras once they travel back in time to undo a year of bad communication and deliver the product they promised in the timeframe they proposed.

[Math Mathonwy]

I do not understand how anyone breaks models while playing a game.

I would say it is likely you are too rough with them.

They are not action figures. If you are breaking them, the fault is yours, not the model.

The amount of handling a given plastic mini can cope with without breaking is obviously a scale. There is, naturally, a limit where you can design a plastic mini in such a way that it breaks when you handle it.

This is a fact.

Let me repeat that, since I think that it might actually be fruitful.

It is a fact. A truth. It is possible to make a plastic mini that Ausplosions can't handle in a gaming situation without breaking it.

Now, you can argue that such a limit has not been reached with the Skeeters or Ashigaru or whatever while other people can claim that the limit has been reached.

Imagine a player who has been playing for a long time, let's say a decade, and has been able to game with minis without breaking them for that time. And then that player builds a Skeeter and, when gaming, like he has for a decade, breaks it. Is it a fault of the player? When no other plastic mini has ever broke under his handling in a gaming situation but this particular one does so repeatedly?

A disclaimer: I'm not speaking of myself. I haven't handled the Skeeters, I replaced them with metal models from a different manufacturer because I don't like their size for a 30mm base mini. I also have gamed a lot longer than a decade.

Edit: As for the scale problems, I have to agree with several posters that they are the biggest thing I see wrong with Wyrd's product currently. I think that things like the Young LaCroix and the Samurai are really, really unfortunate and really undermine Wyrd's claim to producing premium minis.

[The Godlyness]

whats wrong with the samurai? i just put mine together and look man sized to me heck next to the low river monks they look like they are wearing armor (shock and awe)

[entropolous]

The crouching one is on the large size. He looks to be a descendant of Izamu.

[Math Mathonwy]

whats wrong with the samurai? i just put mine together and look man sized to me heck next to the low river monks they look like they are wearing armor (shock and awe)

o_O

Dude.

http://gmortschaotica.blogspot.fr/2014/08/malifaux-at-gencon-day-four-round-up.html

[hypoking]

Lol. If you just look at the head and shoulders they look fine. Soon as you look down though...

 

Well, guess we know which one has nine wounds.