Why no stat cards?!

[Deggiera]

Just re-read all i said, i was a little heavy handed, perhaps i should of shown a little more tact. Apologize if i caused any offence.

i do stick to the fundamental points of my comments though so just add smiley faces after each line :')

 

*Smiley faces, disarming hostility online since 1991* ^^

[mythicFOX]

I'd like to take a moment to remind everyone to keep it civil,.. before the Mods come in here and start dropping hammers on people's heads.

 

Too late.

 

For the benefit of new members I'll remind you all that we're happy for you to discuss these sorts of issues, and for people to disagree, but you must be nice to each other while you are doing so.

 

This is your official 'play nice or else' warning. 

 

</modhat>

[paradoxstorm]

Wow...quality thread.

 

Honestly, putting stats online doesn't seem like a bad idea in any way. Folk who don't care about the game still won't care and bring in any money regardless of it. If you don't care for the nicely made models, you sure as hell won't care about their stats. It's just a bit of convenience for those of us who prefer not to lug too much paper around. Instead, it gets treated like a slight to the company's honor for some reason.

 

And before someone goes "but they dont do it so shut up about it"...how are they supposed to know there's a need for it if no one's to bring it up? You don't improve service by listening to the praise but to the criticism.

 

I would add that "putting the stats online" is not the same as "putting the cards online."

 

I am happy to throw money at a hobby and have no issue buying arsenal decks for proper cards.  What I would like is some sort of a searchable database where I select a couple of model characteristics I am searching for and get a list of models with those characteristics.   For me this is more of a crew builder/shopping list builder than anything else.  More efficient than the big rule book.  Not as much fun as the big rule book, though.

 

Because it is their game Wyrd is free to ignore, act immediately, or save for some future date.   

[Deggiera]

@Paradox storm.

 

In my opinion Pull my finger is our tool for this, its up to the community about how much information is provided per entry. There are people in each of the faction discussions who are pushing for the completion of their entries. the one that springs immediately to mind is the guildies.

 

Alot of their entries talk about everything you would find on the card aswell as tactical application. if its SS cost you want to find Wyrd has provided us with a crew builder.

 

If your faction section is fairly empty make threads to address it, Inspire people to get involved. add what you feel you can give back to the community in there aswell.

[therat]

I would add that "putting the stats online" is not the same as "putting the cards online."

 

This is very true. We all have easy access to the wave 2 files, but my friends and I cannot wait to buy the arsenal packs so we have the cards.

 

That said, releasing the rules in app format would kill my interest in buying cards. Critterkiller32's app would be all that I'd use at the table if it had the rules in it. In this case, digital packs might be something to look into.

 

Directly regarding the topic of this thread, I cannot see how arsenal packs and/or lack of all the stats online constitutes a rip-off. I can certainly see how a brand new player lacking guidance from someone more experienced might unwittingly buy a box with 1.5 cards in it and be a little miffed, but it's not like other minis games don't see similar fluctuations and issues with old product vs new rules. Anyone with minis experience should understand that they need to seek advice before jumping in. In addition, the cost of the packs is pretty minuscule. I believe Wyrd even said during the wave 1 beta that they'd be selling the packs near cost to relive some of the burden 1.5 players had to bear going into a new edition.

[dgraz]

Wow.

 

 

There's also the issue that it's an edition change. I can certainly understand that for newer players this can be a hassle.....picking up crew boxes at an LGS that still have the old cards in and having to buy an Arsenal Deck to replace them. (It was an issue for old-timers that had a ton of stuff to get replacements for.....I had to buy multiple decks that I only needed a couple cards out of because I play Marcus.) I get that......however, it's an edition change.....that's the way it goes. You do a bunch of work to make a better product for the long term health of the game and everything needs to change.....that's going to take time......I expect to still hear people a year from now saying they bought a box and it had old cards in it.....because it was sitting in the back bin of some distributor warehouse. But I also agree that the cost of the decks is minimal compared to what other companies charge (I checked for comparison a while back and if I recall, the PP decks were about twice the cost per card as the Wyrd ones). And overall, a very small price to pay for such a massive change.

As far as buying the wrong rulebook, well I'm sorry but that's a personal mistake. When you want a new TV do you just walk into Wal-Mart and pick-up the first one you see? Or do you go online and check reviews and such then go to an electronics store? Being lazy is a buyer's fault, not a company's.....so is ignorance.....the police don't care if you didn't know that killing someone was against the law, you're still going to prison......ignorance is no excuse.

 

I wonder if people that play Pathfinder own all of the books, or if they just use the online stuff?

[Baalbamoth]

Deggera- I already knew you were a fundie (lol j/k)

Others- the money isn't the whole issue, I can afford to buy the extras and likely will, but I would rather have the decision to buy high quality accessories to be optional purchaces rather than a mandatory.

I can get fiercely loyal to game companies who I feel go those extra steps for their customers. Savage Worlds has been offering 9.00 supp books (while everyone else charges 60.00) for decades now, EP as I said let's you download before you buy, hero games (who make champions etc) has a rule system that hasn't been significantly altered since the 80's. Those companies have earned me as a fan boi, and I go out of my way to promote them.

I'm on the verge of that type of loyalty to wyrd, but there's still a few areas where I'm asking "do I really need to be charged for this?" And "why can't people create apps that do that?" Creating some kind of right to online publish data of key rules/cards like Paizo did with their PRD would go a long way towards earning that loyalty with me, that's all I'm sayin.

Dgraz- when I started PF I didn't, now I do. Same w EP. Giving rules out for free made it easy to attract me to their games and once involved led me to buy everything and carry their flag yelling "these guys are awesome!"

[Mike3838]

Since models come packaged with their stat cards, you don't need arsenal decks. The main purpose of arsenal decks was for the M2E transition, to get cards in the hands of players who already had the models. Wyrd have told us that they sell the cards at essentially break even prices for this purpose - they're not a money grab.

If you buy the main rulebook (and subsequent supplement books) you have all the model stats and rules that can guide future purchases. I would always recommend getting the big book. It has all the fluff in it for one thing. It's essential reading for that purpose. The mini rulebook isn't intended as a replacement, it's more of a "don't want to carry a big book around with you? Get this too!"

Once you have the book, and you get the stat cards in the box with the minis, there's no issue surely? No need to pay any extras unless you really want to.

[Deggiera]

A fundie? not sure what that is, I'm British not american. But i guess its a religious fundamentalist? I'm in my last year of astrophysics so i bat for the "logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence team."  And thus i should keep my mouth sealed as not to offend anyone's beliefs :')

 

You have Dgraz and Mythicfox in this topic so if you want actual advice on anything not related to the price tag attached to the product there are few better people. (opportunity is a'knocking) :')

 

good point by mike aswell, even if you buy the big book, having one that's easily stored for traveling to tourneys that u aren't too fussed if they get some wear and tear is not such a bad thing!

[dgraz]

You have Dgraz and Mythicfox in this topic so if you want actual advice on anything not related to the price tag attached to the product there are few better. (opportunity is a'knocking) :')

 

Well....garsh.....thanks for the compliment, but I don't know if I'm all that.

[Deggiera]

Pff please, I have read rather extensive articles on Marcus by one such you very nearly swayed me into starting this game with alot of metals despite my unadulterated hatred of pinning. ended up team NB but added alot of anti-Marcus depth to my game ^^

 

If anyone can whip up a how to you are in that list

[dgraz]

Gah.....

 

"nearly swayed"

 

"team NB"

 

Oh My God!

 

"ANTI-MARCUS" 

 

obviously I did something wrong

[Poko]

 

It has all the fluff in it for one thing.

Doesn't it just have the continuation of fluff from the old and now defunct rulebook and sourcebooks? Making it's background pretty useless for anyone who did not buy the previous books too? I only have the small manual so I don't know to be honest.

[Deggiera]

sorry man, blame pinning :') i can reveal a future with Marcus though im guessing when plastic molemen and such are released will be the trigger to do it ^^

 

(mini hijack, top 3 next purchases to a marcus box?) 

[Mike3838]

Nah, it's a pretty generic "starting" fluff book.

There's a few chapters of "this is the world of Malifaux and this is its history" Every model gets a few paragraphs telling you who they are and why they do ehat they do. And there is a short story for each faction that advances the story a tiny bit, but is more intended to introduce some of the major players in the faction. Previous knowledge of past fiction isn't that essential.

Previous books (storm of shadows excepted) have had one big story running through the book, but not so in the M2E main rulebook.

[Parker Barrows]

There is absolutely a valid debate for what companies should and shouldn't allow online and what is the best model to gain customers.

 

But when one side starts off with gross mischaracterizations like comparing Wyrd to GW and demanding Wyrd give them free stuff (the Lazrus card, which is kinda weird since the poster said he's playing Levi which means he already has the Wave 2 cards which Lazrus is a part of), it is not going to be valid debate.

[Baalbamoth]

Ausplosions- I'm not talking about fluff, artwork, etc. Just the rules of the game, specifically the abilities of the models. I do think its kind of a rip not being able to know the models stats without first buying a expensive art and fluff filled book im really not all that into.

Sue- as I said I bought a Ramos crew (not Levi), Lazarus would fit nicely in that, problem being I don't have a m2e card for it and gotta buy a whole arsenal deck to get one or have a crappy paper version I print out from a download.

[Lucidicide]

You in no way need the big rulebook to play the game. If you think it's a rip off, don't buy it. If you want to know what models do, read Pull My Finger. If you want the specific stats, drive to a game store that carries Malifaux, and look at the book on their shelf or ask one of your friends who plays to see theirs.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Stats for Lazarus are available for free in the Downloads section. 

[Scorpion0x17]

...or have a crappy paper version I print out from a download.

Dude, everyone has to use a crappy paper version they print out from a download for the Wave 2 models - the cards for those don't exist yet!

[Deggiera]

drive to a game store that carries Malifaux, and look at the book on their shelf

 

Don't do this, i beg of you unless its store copy. one of my pet peeves, i don't even lend books to people, i feel better giving someone a book if they ask to borrow it.

People are so abusive to books, its bordering on hate crime... please :')

 

As far as the crappy paper thing... could just go to a printing shop and get them to print it on cardstock if you are that worried :') or take your laptop/tablet with you. Or just wait till they get round to the wave 2 cards and use the print out :')

 

Edit, dont ask to borrow my rulebook.. just saying

[Mason]

Dude, everyone has to use a crappy paper version they print out from a download for the Wave 2 models - the cards for those don't exist yet!

 

Just to reiterate this point, Lazarus is a Wave 2 model.  The Malifaux 2e stat card for Lazarus only exists in the digital format, which you can find and print off ~here.~  That is, at the moment, the only place to get a 2e stat card for Lazarus, and it is, again, totally free (along with all the other Wave 2 rules).

 

 

Also, if you're playing against someone, why not just ask to see the stat cards of their models?  If they refuse to show you, they're kind of being a jerkl. 

[NoHero]

*SNIP* I do think its kind of a rip not being able to know the models stats without first buying a expensive art and fluff filled book im really not all that into.

 

Baalbamoth, I do not know how long you have  been gaming, but I wanted to share my experience with you because I am a fairly new tabletop gamer (just started in fall 2012). Before Malifaux I was playing Warmahordes. Just getting a basic army was 150$ and if  you wanted all the model stats you had to buy the main book and the faction book. So that was quite an investment. Compared to that I find Wyrds starting costs extremely competitive. The reason I believe they do not have the model stats online is because people could potentially play their game for free. All someone would have to do is proxy the models and buy a playing card deck and they could play the game, thus Wyrd would not get any money. By not giving out model rules they ensure they make some money from the game. Technically, you could buy the arsenal deck and still proxy models and not have to invest in anything else. By buying the arsenal deck you have access to that entire faction. This allows you proxy and try out any model you could ever possibly want in that faction. There have been several models I tried before I bought them because I wasn't sure I would use them. So that works out perfectly. If you don't want the big book you can buy 3 or 4 arsenal decks and that would be less than the book and you would have access to all of those facitons. I do not think Wyrd will put model stats online because they have to make sure they make money. They are a smaller miniatures company that would struggle to make money if they did something like that.

 

 

And while I agree with what some people have said in this thread. I think that being agressive about it will not get anywhere with anyone. I love this game and I would never want to scare away new and potential players.

[Verdeloth]

One thing that could solve the biggest thorn in some peoples back would be to have singels available in the local store so a marcus can buy his arsenal + 5 other singel beast from other factions without getting 60 extra cards they dont use. Just have a MTG binder with singels

[Math Mathonwy]

Since models come packaged with their stat cards, you don't need arsenal decks.

Unless you want the generic faction Upgrades, of course.

I do not think Wyrd will put model stats online because they have to make sure they make money. They are a smaller miniatures company that would struggle to make money if they did something like that.

Which one is bigger, Infinity or Malifaux?

One thing that could solve the biggest thorn in some peoples back would be to have singels available in the local store so a marcus can buy his arsenal + 5 other singel beast from other factions without getting 60 extra cards they dont use. Just have a MTG binder with singels

One problem with that is that some cards are more wanted than others.