How do you beat Pandora?

[esqulax]

We are a pretty new group of players that all started together 6 months ago and we are starting to have a pretty big roster of models split between us. The one master that has been dominating everything has been Pandora. I am sure it is just our newbee meta, but we really can't seem to find an answer for her. It is me who run her and I usually play her with The box opens, Fears given form and Aether connection, 2 sorrows, Iggy and Mr. Graves to get her upfield faster. After that I add some more WP shenanigans or whatever the schemes call for. 

Usually I just try to get her engaged with as many enemy models as possible where she feels completely immortal due to her 4 push, 7 WP and Aether connection. It is hard to disengage from her due to her range of 3 and if I manage to throw a Sorrow or two into the mix everything my opponent has in that bubble just dies. 

Untill yesterday I had imagined that a heavy ranged crew would be her downfall, but I played against Sonia which I still managed to beat while feeling like I was somehow cheating. 

I play four other Neverborn masters and I don't have this "problem" with any of them, so could someone please shed some light on how Pandora ever loses? 

[Adran]

 Pandora really hates any damage that doesn't let her use her wp stat. . Sonnia is pretty good against Pandora as she naturally gets postive flips against her when casting Flameburst, and she can shoot her own models if she wants to get those blasts onto Pandora. As a bonus, if you used a witchling to do this, when it dies it does more damage Pandora can't avoid easily. And even when Pandora gets close to stop her shooting, Sonnia can use inferno to deal 3 damage to her that she gets to do nothing about. Pandoras attacks against Sonnia are also a risk due to reflect magic trigger Sonnia has along with her huge Wp. 

Pandora plays a very different game to a lot of masters so it can take a while to learn how to deal with it, but whilst she is strong, she isn't unbeatable. 

[Math Mathonwy]

Look at your crew, now back at Pandora, now back at your crew, now back to Pandora. Sadly, your crew isn't hers, but if you stopped using models that attack her in the conventional way and had access to blasts and pulses and whatnot, you could kill her. Look down, back up, where are you? You're in Torsul's post, following his advice. What's in your hand, back at Pandora? It's VPs that you get by concentrating on Schemes and Strats and killing her crew and ignoring her. Look again, the VPs are now Pandora's tears. Anything is possible when you combine the advice of Adran and Torsul. I'm on a Pig.

[Mutter]

In my last game with Pandora, my opponent Yin'd her, and that made me, very, very sad. It was pretty much lights out for her after that, so stuff that shuts down her slipperyness is very powerful.

[esqulax]

Good advice guys, thanks. Although unless you know in advance that you are facing her, I feel like it is very hard to have enough ways around her WP to not just have her soak the damage with Aether connection and a usually decent size SS pool. 

 

And Mutter, couldn't she just push away from Yin by winning an Incite duel? Am I crazy or isn't that a WP duel? 

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, esqulax said:

And Mutter, couldn't she just push away from Yin by winning an Incite duel? Am I crazy or isn't that a WP duel? 

I believe that Mutter meant that Yin hit Panora with Gnawing Fear (on Wp and Ca duels). After which she is extremely vulnerable.

[Mutter]

Yes. I guess I should have elaborated.

[Ghoul]

4 hours ago, Mutter said:

In my last game with Pandora, my opponent Yin'd her, and that made me, very, very sad. It was pretty much lights out for her after that, so stuff that shuts down her slipperyness is very powerful.

This! I main rezzers and my buddy does neverborn.

he runs Dora with lust and let me just say that is annoying. I gave her negative to ca/wp duels with gnawing fear and then hit her with hanged. Super funny to watch Dora  get paralyzed. Sadly iggy was still a thing and set everyone on fire. We were playing extraction. But Seamus was able to run leave your mark all on his own and eventually kill lust and Dora.

I play against pandora the same way I play against shooty guild and that is hand management. Start taking note of the duels you can afford to lose and really think about the ones you can't. "Maybe my henchmen can take the damage from Dora so I'll save the 13 for casting gnawing fears".I have also used the red joker way more defensively against this kind of crew. Knowing pandora can push out. Just ignore her.

I would also say you're opponents need to look at the pieces that make your crew work.  Iggy's incite doesn't seem strong but in concert with your crew within 6inches of your dudes it can do 3 damage as a 0 action  (1 from Dora 2 from your sorrows) then force them to activate for fgf damage.

Sometimes you just need to walk opposing players through how things work, or will work especially in friendly games. I know I had to do this a lot with Hamelin.lol

hope this helps

[-Loki-]

Worst game I ever had was a 30pt Slow Grow game where my opponent Pine Box'ed Pandora. He had a good card to cheat, and my hand was entirely garbage and I flipped low. Bye bye Pandora. Next turn my hand wasn't any better, and Pandora failed to get out. Two turns without Pandora when you built your crew using mostly her crew box isn't fun.

[Franchute]

2 hours ago, Torsul said:

Btw Seamus and Marcus are two of the worst Matchups ever for Pandora

Do you mean Marcus has an advantage? Or a disadvantage? Sorry for mh English.

[Four_N_Six]

There are general masters that are better in the situation, but Marcus isn't a guarantee either way.  Depends on the player.  When I had just started the game, a local guy offered to play me while I used Pandora.  He used Tara.  Should have been a slam dunk for Pandora, but it wasn't.

If I could choose a single master, knowing I was up against Pandora, it would be Zipp.  Nothing she can do about him coming at her.

[hydranixx]

1 hour ago, Franchute said:

Do you mean Marcus has an advantage? Or a disadvantage? Sorry for mh English.

Advantage. I assume @Torsul writes this due to Marcus and Seamus both having access to upgrades that lowers the WP of nearby enemies by 2? Either of these put Pandora down to WP5, where she becomes much easier to hit and her Incite is much easier to avoid.

Pandora's a dangerous thing for them to hunt though. Even though they neuter her WP, her base Ca stats on Self Harm and Self Loathing are good, and Marcus (Trail of the Gods + Shillelagh) and Seamus (.50 Flintlock) both have minimum 4 damage attacks that she'd absolutely love to use against them. If she also has overlapping Misery auras, the damage stacks up even quicker. My Seamus shot himself in the head twice in one turn when she Self Harm'd him; 10 damage later...

Against Pandora:

When you're against Box Pandora, as others have indicated, it's best to avoid her as much as possible, and play for your schemes. The Strategy will very often still be painful (Pandora is most popular in Extraction-type strategies for a reason; stacking her auras and Inflict into a mosh pit), but sometimes you just have to tough it out and throw some fatties in the middle to score you 2 or 3 VP on the strategy. The cost to attacking is often too high, but killing her support model core (Sorrows/Madnesses/Iggy/Widow Weaver/Poltergeist) undoes a lot of the pressure and damage she brings. 

If you ever play Voices Pandora, suggest to your friends that they consider disabling her before she disables them. iirc she also has an upgrade that makes models Insignificant. Either or both of these upgrades severely hamper one's ability to score. Traditional condition removal can help, but as you know Incite can often get around that.

Any control actions they can throw at her usually help a great deal. She's as delicate as anyone else when it comes to being on the receiving end of harmful conditions. Alternatively, throwing high stat attacks at her will force her to use her hand on defending, which means there's fewer resources for her to pour into disabling models that will yield you VP.

[Vorschlag]

Sonnia with all witch hunters and counter spell aura- worst Pandora experience I ever had.

Hamelin (thematic crew) leaves no beaters for her to abuse as it focuses on bleeding disease.

Models with explosions because she likes her crew to cluster.

Yin ruins Candy's day and would make Pandora's somewhat unpleasant.

Of course you could simply have your hanged make her flip a black joker on a terror test... (sigh )

Point: she's no less breakable than other masters once you figure out how to handle her.

For the most part the advice others have provided of taking apart her machine by knocking out key pieces is the most functional advice you can get for handling any crew that uses synergy.

Focusing on v/p and using blocking terrain should  also be taken as read.

Regarding your meta give it time and look for mistakes you feel your opponents are making then discuss them at the end of the game.

In my experience even before the wisps Zoraida was the bane of my local meta, sometimes a player just clicks with a masters play style and it makes them harder to handle because their game play is more fluid and adaptable.

I look forward to haunting the bayou with my shabby old crone again once my game with other masters has improved somewhat.

[Ludvig]

Guild specifik but: Sonnia should have a field day as already mentioned. Extra fun with Papa Loco buried by the emissary popping out and forcing several really tough df duels that she can't use her WP to resist and then automatic damage against her when he dies.

If you can get a couple of models with an attack stat of 7+ to hit her she should be sweating like a pig.

Anna Lovelace can help, Pandora isn't allowed to push away if she is close.

[Four_N_Six]

You're looking at trouble selecting a gremlin, but I think certain masters have a good advantage over her.

Som'er might do alright.  Her attacks against willpower will hurt a bayou gremlin, but when you're throwing 3 a turn at her, the best she can do is just take them down.  Then you summon 3 more and throw them at her, and just eat her AP.  Obviously it isn't a perfect world and she'll find a way out, but it's potential.  Hell, just throw stuffed piglets at her and shoot them with Som'er and blast her.

Wong would be my secondary choice over Zipp.  Give him Gremlin's Luck and throw those expendable Stuffed Piglets at her.  Randomize to hit them, and she's screwed.  Can't test to resist the blast so she can't push away, and she'll be potentially taking the pulse damage, too.  That's (ideally) a minimum of 6 damage (3 from the  , 2 from the  , 1 stuffed damage).

I hesitate to suggest a Mah Tucket crew, though she's one of my favorites.  She has triggers to force pushes on melee attacks, which means she can keep engaged with Pandora.  Her crew (Bushwackers) also have an above average stat line for Gremlins, which is the main reason I would suggest them.

I'm not a big fan of Ophelia or Ulix, but they do have the damage potential to eat through her before she can do much.  Burn a couple of stones with Ophelia for Thinkin' Luck and Pandora should only last a couple of shots.

[Math Mathonwy]

23 hours ago, Four_N_Six said:

You're looking at trouble selecting a gremlin, but I think certain masters have a good advantage over her.

I hesitate to suggest a Mah Tucket crew, though she's one of my favorites.  She has triggers to force pushes on melee attacks, which means she can keep engaged with Pandora.  Her crew (Bushwackers) also have an above average stat line for Gremlins, which is the main reason I would suggest them.

She can also up the Ml of her crew which can make Pandora sweat quite a bit more than normal.

You forgot Zoraida who is actually very good against Pandora as she is herself is pretty safe with her Wp 10 and she can can control positioning which is pretty key against Pandy. She doesn't have a (0)Action so Liquid Bravery for a bit of extra protection and for boosting your Minions. Also, Bewitching Pandora is fun  She would actually be my second favourite choice against her after Zipp (who is just stupid).

[Four_N_Six]

I always forget Zoraida, unfortunately.  I bought her while I was playing Neverborn, and haven't made the leap to even try her as a Gremlin yet.  She's on the list.  When I go back to my green guys, I'm focusing on the masters I neglected last time.

[esqulax]

Thanks for the advice guys

We are only playing our own little meta, so it sometimes take some time for us to realize that we are playing something wrong. We for example just found out that auras and pulses require LOS which definitely helped a bit. 

[IntereoVivo]

2 minutes ago, esqulax said:

We for example just found out that auras and pulses require LOS which definitely helped a bit. 

Yeah, that is important.