Francisco Ortega?

[Hagisman]

After listening to the latest Malifools podcast, they made mention that then people were looking for advice in Guild crew building, Francisco was almost always mentioned.

 

Just wanted to know why? Is it because of his ability to give bonuses to defense? His melee capabilities?

[osoi]

Hes a really solid Henchman all round, quite survivable and he can slot into almost any Guild crew easily

[rancor709]

+2df +2wp is a huge bonus to give out. He's very cost effective and offers some nice tricks all around. I tend to favor the judge but its more play style than anything else

[Meliondor]

- He is a good melee tank and can become even tankier with his 1 point upgrade

- He can make other moels even tankier (for example lady Justice or Bishop...this are the perfect companions for him, or Perdita for defense 9)

- He can hit hard in melee and he can shoot ok

- He can push your models out of melee

 

So if you have a model for only 8 Soulstones, with the fighting abilities of an 8 point model, but also 2 great support abilities, then it is just absolutly great. His stand alone abilities are worth taking him for this points. His Bodyguard abilities are just making him better. Even at 10 soulstones I would still consider taking him. He makes it in nearly all my lists, even if I hate the model.

[coolguyclay]

He makes it in nearly all my lists, even if I hate the model.

 

The old model, or the new one?

 

For a faction that has a large amount of shooting models, Francisco is a stand-out melee model. He can wreck a lot of things, especially with a good hand, and Finesse keeps him quite safe while in melee. A go-to bulwark again melee-oriented builds.

 

Slightly squishy outside of melee (basically average stats), so getting there is his biggest drawback . . . plus he kills most anything he touches, so is outside melee even more!

[MasterDisaster]

To be honest I think all of Francisco's models suck. The plastic one is bearable but my GOD do I hate his sombrero. I really wish it was optional. If you don't glue it on you still have the straps on his face and a gaping chunk missing from the back of his head. Granted the head could be filled in with Greenstuff but removing those straps from his cheeks would require way more skill than I could hope to achieve. 

[Joel]

I also hate the models (both metal and plastic), so the onl way I will field him is as a proxy, using Miss Terious without her coffin.

[NoHero]

I like the Miss Terious idea. Maybe  Santana could be modified to be holding a sword? Also anyone who has the plastic one is a head swap an option?

[sssk]

Head swap isn't. Hat swap is

[Hagisman]

I'm going to rock that hat. Don't care about everyone's hatred of it.

[zFiend]

Haha. Well said Hagisman. I hated the new sculpt too with the hat, but it's growing on me I actually quite like it now.

[Hagisman]

I find that Francisco has the same weakness as Guild guard. A Savy player will target Francisco. Much like guild guard where target one and it weakens the other.

[dgraz]

I find that Francisco has the same weakness as Guild guard. A Savy player will target Francisco. Much like guild guard where target one and it weakens the other.

Agreed. Not as easy as a Guild Guard.....with H2K, Finesse, and use SS.........but the principal is the same.

[LunarSol]

Agreed. Not as easy as a Guild Guard.....with H2K, Finesse, and use SS.........but the principal is the same.

 

My biggest fear with Diestro is that while he feels suitably hard to kill for a 9 SS model, he's significantly less impressive in the 12 SS slot.

[dgraz]

Well, you don't need to use Diestro.

 

Now, I will say that I have both used it, and not used it. When I didn't take it I wished I had it.........and when I had it......whatever was close to him was dead, dead, dead. I've brutalized enemies for several turns before they're able to take him down.

[Sonova]

He is impressive when you take him in a vacuum or when available model pools are small. Once you take into account other factions and their model pools he becomes a lot less impressive. The fact that people are pushing him onto new players so hard is doing the game as a whole a disservice I feel because he is being sold on his +2/+2 which is disingenuous.

 

What these people fail to mention is that without Perdita and Aura Ancestral things like Rotten Belles and Beckoners become hard counters to him, not to mention the sheer number of masters who can just brute force him down, push him, bury him, use him as a low defence bounce point for blasts etc etc. He is not bad as a model because of his OTHER tricks and pretty decent melee... But he's not worth the 9+ points to anyone other than the Ortegas in general.

[dgraz]

He is impressive when you take him in a vacuum or when available model pools are small. Once you take into account other factions and their model pools he becomes a lot less impressive. The fact that people are pushing him onto new players so hard is doing the game as a whole a disservice I feel because he is being sold on his +2/+2 which is disingenuous.

 

What these people fail to mention is that without Perdita and Aura Ancestral things like Rotten Belles and Beckoners become hard counters to him, not to mention the sheer number of masters who can just brute force him down, push him, bury him, use him as a low defence bounce point for blasts etc etc. He is not bad as a model because of his OTHER tricks and pretty decent melee... But he's not worth the 9+ points to anyone other than the Ortegas in general.

Holy crap I couldn't disagree with you more. He's Wp 6 base......and with forced neg flips on melee attacks against him, how are Belles and Beckoners hard counters. Belles with their Ca 8 move everyone in the game......that's hardly a 'hard counter to 'Cisco'....and when he gets there, what are they going to do to him? Flail uselessly with neg flips on their attacks where they can't cheat to hit....while he still can, and can use SS to prevent damage....and has H2K....and a (0) Heal ability.

 

I also find it 'disingenuous' to say how many masters can beat him up.........well, they're MASTERS.....any master that can handle him like that will do the same to anything in front of them.

 

No one is forcing him on anyone, and he is not being sold on his +2/+2........the 2nd thru 4th posts of this thread mention several reasons other than that. Actually, the OP asked what people thought about him, so how are people forcing him on anyone by answering that question.

 

Again, just like the Sam Hopkins thread, I think you're seriously under-selling this model.....perhaps you've had bad luck with him, but perhaps he doesn't suit your play-style.

[Sonova]

Whoa i think you need to take a step back and breathe. I'm not saying Frank is bad. I'm saying he is not as good as people are making him out to be and there are better models for specific crews. Frank is only super duper good in the Ortegas because the Ortegas are chocked full of abilities that can move him outside of his activation guaranteeing that he can be where he needs to be to get maximum effect out of him. This is the ONLY way you will be able to justify his fully decked out 12ss cost. 

 

Other masters:

 

Lady Justice - The Judge is better because of his ability to move either your own or opposing models which can be the key to setting Justice up for a devastating charge or allowing her to assassinate a key model. This is a (0) action so he loses no mobility or utility. More wounds, HTW and HTK stock standard. 

 

Sonnia Criid - There could be an argument for the inclusion of Frank for Sonnia because of her rather crappy Df. However Sonnia's penchant for staying at maximum range whenever possible means that if this is your plan, you are essentially paying 9+ ss for a meatshield. Guardians are cheaper and possibly MUCH better because at 40mm they can hard block LoS and charge lanes for anything that would engage Sonnia since Sonnia doesnt have to see stuff to set it on fire (if its already on fire).

 

McMourning - McMourning can move Frank around so there could be some synergy there. However, my experience has been that McMourning wants to move around like an insane howler monkey on cocaine... so he doesnt move around enough. Also runs into the same problem as Criid where if you need a bodyguard model the guardian is also probably better since the +2 defensive buff does NOT require Macca to be within 4 inches once its been placed on him. 

 

Hoffman - Frankie is not a construct. Its not his fault but ya know... thems the breaks.

 

McCabe - McCabe is an interesting kettle of fish because his mechanic can quite simply push Frankie into the realm of ridiculousness. The main problem is then that this is not specific to Frankie and a huge argument can be made for if you are going to to make someone a superman, you might as well go all in on a model thats already super good. As nice as Frankie is he isn't the ideal candidate for McCabe's upgrades when compared to the other henchmen or something like the Pale Rider. As for Frankie's defensive buffs? McCabes on a horse. Frankie isnt. Good luck with that.

 

SO yeah ... He is ok. He just only has soft synergies with anyone other than Perdita and isnt really worth the effort of shoehorning him into EVERY guild list. And yes... Belles and Beckoners are hard counters because unless Frankie is standing next to something relevant he is just Df 5 Wp 6 Wd 8 with HtK maybe. It doesnt matter if they can hurt him or not. In Perdita's crew he is Wp 8 which makes him MUCH harder to shift. 

[Joel]

Actually, McCabe and Frank have quite an easy time of it,

 

every time an upgrade is passed, the model receiving it gets a 4" push.  If the upgrade you are giving Francisco is the badge of speed, he's also just picked up nimble.  McCabe also doesn't need to often be strolling much past the centreline in my experience, so movement potential differences tha the two mdoels have are less of an issue.  McCabe's promises upgrade actually works better with Fransisco than many other models of comparable cost as giving him positive flips on Ml and Wp is a really good idea.

 

with the boosts going the other way, a McCabe who is Df7-9 based on how many enemy models he's engaged with and a Wp of 8, with positive flips is as solid as anyone could want.

 

promises doesn't boot some of the other henchmen as much as their main attacks are Sh ones.

[Sonova]

Actually, McCabe and Frank have quite an easy time of it,

 

every time an upgrade is passed, the model receiving it gets a 4" push.  If the upgrade you are giving Francisco is the badge of speed, he's also just picked up nimble.  McCabe also doesn't need to often be strolling much past the centreline in my experience, so movement potential differences tha the two mdoels have are less of an issue.  McCabe's promises upgrade actually works better with Fransisco than many other models of comparable cost as giving him positive flips on Ml and Wp is a really good idea.

 

with the boosts going the other way, a McCabe who is Df7-9 based on how many enemy models he's engaged with and a Wp of 8, with positive flips is as solid as anyone could want.

 

promises doesn't boot some of the other henchmen as much as their main attacks are Sh ones.

 

Eh? Most of the guild henchmen have better melee stats than shooting so promises is pretty solid all around. Also free movement is gold whether you are shooty or stabby. And yeah the interaction is interesting ... but is it as good as giving nimble to either the Pale Rider, Executioner or Peacekeeper? Also pro tip, Dashel with McCabe can be pretty brutal for a crew that likes handing out and abusing slow.

 

And again the problem with boosting masters to the 9's means that a savvy opponent will just tear the Df 5 buffbot apart or move him. Or even more likely just ignore your little deathstar and pick on easier targets.  

[MasterDisaster]

I've tried McCabe, Dashell and 2-3 Riflemen with devastating results. Francisco has rarely if ever been a contender for a spot in my McCabe crews. 

[Joel]

which is where McCabe being Ht3 on a 50mm base comes into play - blocking LoS rather effectively.

 

For me, Pale rider tends to operate outside the McCabe radius anyway and the executioner is brought in for specialist work.  Francisco is a generalist, which is why so many people are recommending him.

 

Now, I agree with you that Francisco is being over-used and over-recommended in guild lists.  However, he is a solid choice for most masters and cheap enough to at least be worth a look at when building a list.

 

Personally, I seldom use him, but I do appreciate his role when I do, and can see why he's getting so much play at the moment,  I think that when wave 2 beds in a bit more, he will drop off in common usage.

[Sonova]

Yeah. If all people have are the Wave 1 boxes then he's pretty solid. Once the model pool expands however he drops off a cliff for everyone except the Ortegas where he's being pushed into base contact with the enemy to debuff them while Perdy and Santa perforate them before being pushed into something else to flurry it to death and then ending the turn within 2" of either Perdy or an injured family member to give them a quiet boost. 

[Dracomax]

Honestly, Even with wave 2, He's pretty solid. Just not as Autotake as a lot of people are claiming.

 

Any time you have a shooting focused crew, he's a good—albeit expensive—add with diestro. the +2/+2 are great, but situational.

[LunarSol]

Frank is only super duper good in the Ortegas because the Ortegas are chocked full of abilities that can move him outside of his activation guaranteeing that he can be where he needs to be to get maximum effect out of him. This is the ONLY way you will be able to justify his fully decked out 12ss cost. 

 

I think you're right for the 12 SS version of him, but the 9 SS version is quite impressive regardless of master.  8 Wd HtK is quite durable with or without Finesse, particularly with the ability to self heal and use soulstones to make that second to last Wd really count.  His damage output is also quite solid for the cost.  Using the +2/+2 exclusively on the Master is probably a bit of a trap though, and in general its probably best spent protecting high value targets that can't stay at range (or J, I suppose).