Duels against a - stat

[taozenrat]

whats the effect or how does one resolve a duel against a model without the specified stat?

Ex: Ototo uses Thunderstrike: Enemy models within :pulse3 must succeed in a Wk 12 Duel or Gain Slow.

in range of the is a say a Clockwork Trap or Ashen Core.

Ignoring for the moment this ability wouldn't affect those models as the Trap never activates and the Core is immune to conditions, both models have a no Wk stat.

do the still perform the duel?

[Dracomax]

My guess would be that it is just the value of the card flipped.

[HalcyonSeraph]

My guess would be that it is just the value of the card flipped.

Could be. Or it could be they are immune to the power.

Obviously Lilith's Transfixing Gaze vs models with no Cg is another common place this comes up, as we saw in the other thread.

[Dracomax]

Could be. Or it could be they are immune to the power.

Obviously Lilith's Transfixing Gaze vs models with no Cg is another common place this comes up, as we saw in the other thread.

You could also make the argument that it means they can't resist the power.

'"--" means that they can't do the thing the stat refers to. if the stat is a resist, then defacto, they can't resist, so the attack automatically hits.'

I think thecard value is the best interpretation, because it creates fewer corner cases.

[Sharp_GT]

Treating the stat as 0 when adding it to the duel seems like the easiest thing to do. So try to pass the Wk 12 duel with just the card value, or lilith succeeds and doesn't move the target. I doubt not having a stat would make a model immune to duels involving that stat.

[Mastershake]

Treating the stat as 0 when adding it to the duel seems like the easiest thing to do. So try to pass the Wk 12 duel with just the card value, or lilith succeeds and doesn't move the target. I doubt not having a stat would make a model immune to duels involving that stat.

Automatically failing a duel involving the stat is also an option. While it's easy to imagine the "-" is a 0, it isn't an actual value. I could see it either being treated as a null value or an auto-fail, but it does require a decision from the game devs since there isn't anything in the core rulebook to make a determination for certain.

[solkan]

whats the effect or how does one resolve a duel against a model without the specified stat?

Ex: Ototo uses Thunderstrike: Enemy models within :pulse3 must succeed in a Wk 12 Duel or Gain Slow.

in range of the is a say a Clockwork Trap or Ashen Core.

Ignoring for the moment this ability wouldn't affect those models as the Trap never activates and the Core is immune to conditions, both models have a no Wk stat.

do the still perform the duel?

Can you find an example that would actually be possible, so that the method of resolution would matter?

Otherwise, you may as well say that the resolution is free beer for everyone playing. *beer.goggles* Because it doesn't matter how you resolve something that can't happen because the developer is careful to prevent it.

Edited January 28, 2014 by solkan

[HalcyonSeraph]

Can you find an example that would actually be possible, so that the method of resolution would matter?

Otherwise, you may as well say that the resolution is free beer for everyone playing. *beer.goggles* Because it doesn't matter how you resolve something that can't happen because the developer is careful to prevent it.

The best and easiest example is Lilith trying to cast Transfixing Gaze on a model with a Cg of -. We have no idea what happens. Possible options include:

A. She can't target it at all because a Cg stat is a targeting requirement.

B. She can target it and it auto-fails the check because it has no Cg.

C. She can target it and it auto-passes the check because it has no Cg and is thus immune.

D. The world ends and the game crashes.

[Myth]

The original example itself matters, since Ototo gains benefits against models with Slow.

(Which brings up another rules question - if you give Slow or Fast or Paralyzed to a Clockwork Trap, does the condition remain... forever?)

Another similar example to the original one would be Barbaros and his upgrade. It is also a Pulse that requires a Wk duel - and, in his case, immediately causes damage and movement to those who fail.

So when you use it, what happens? Do models without a Wk stat auto-fail? Auto-succeed? Flip a card and count their stat as 0?

[Tuttleboy]

From the call out box on Math:

"Models with a value of "—" in a Stat do not have the noted Stat, and it may not be modified."

The model does not have the Cg stat so can't be targeted by the ability IMO. But this is similar to the discussion on using Self Harm against a model that doesn't have a attack so I'm fine waiting to see how the FAQ on it turns out.

[HalcyonSeraph]

From the call out box on Math:

"Models with a value of "—" in a Stat do not have the noted Stat, and it may not be modified."

The model does not have the Cg stat so can't be targeted by the ability IMO. But this is similar to the discussion on using Self Harm against a model that doesn't have a attack so I'm fine waiting to see how the FAQ on it turns out.

Ok, then what happens when a model with no Wk stat is called upon to make a Wk duel in a pulse? Is he immune? Honestly, both the "they are immune" and "they autofail" arguments have significant merit, either would make sense.

[Hateful Darkblack]

(Parenthetical side note: This could, in a very unusual circumstance, come up and matter! If an Alp is nearby, gaining Slow would do the trap 1 damage even though the trap never activates.)

[Dracomax]

Doesn't the Friekorps specialist also have a pulse ability that triggers a Wk duel?

[Myth]

Doesn't the Friekorps specialist also have a pulse ability that triggers a Wk duel?

I don't believe so, but I think the Firestarter does.

[Malharath]

Well, what about Cursed Object?? Can they make an attempt to clear the condition? Or is it free points to oppoment?

[The Godlyness]

they be peons so i think you have to target something else with the object iicr

[Malharath]

they be peons so i think you have to target something else with the object iicr

It was more, if there is anything it could come up on, sorry should have said that.

[baskinders]

Ashen Core is an Enforcer with Wk -

[Dracomax]

Well, Rail Golem has Vent boiler, which is a TN12 Wk Duel. Nobody uses it ATM, but it is there.

[vxghost]

Did this ever get resolved? The Lilith Transfixing Gaze interaction came up in my game last night against Nicodem. Specifically she was in Avatar form and had multiple Hazardous terrain features under him. The question we ended up with was whether it doesn't push him at all, or if he is pushed 0", thus triggering the damage flip from the terrain as well as the effect from the Transfixing Gaze itself. Given the rules void, I ended up just altering my plan.

[Dracomax]

Well, if he was pushed 0", then he did not move, and therefore had no damage from hazardous.

 

Q: If a model moves (or is Pushed, Falls, is Placed, etc) 0” (zero inches), does it count as having moved?
A: No. Same answer for Pushing, Falling, Placement, etc.

[HalcyonSeraph]

Did this ever get resolved? The Lilith Transfixing Gaze interaction came up in my game last night against Nicodem. Specifically she was in Avatar form and had multiple Hazardous terrain features under him. The question we ended up with was whether it doesn't push him at all, or if he is pushed 0", thus triggering the damage flip from the terrain as well as the effect from the Transfixing Gaze itself. Given the rules void, I ended up just altering my plan.

 

Well, what HAS been clarified is that moving 0 is not moving, so it would not trigger the haz terrain in any case.

 

To answer your question, though, no, we have had no direct clarification on whether or not Lilith can even target someone with a Cg of - with Transfixing Gaze, or what happens if she does. 

[Nicodemic]

This came up in Vegas actually, lilth tried her lure on my Mz but since it had a - for charge mack said it didn't move.

[The Godlyness]

Lets try looking at this a different way. Lilith can target the model all she wants. Nothing is stoping her from doing so. (Applicable tests for targeting ofc). If the the model cant move since it does not have the required stat than it does not.

(See pandora clarification in faq).

[Dracomax]

It doesn't solve the question of the Rail Golem's Vent Boiler, though. If the target does not have a Wk, do they automatically pass, or automatically fail?(it is a pulse, so can't be targetted isn't really an option).

 

There is no movement, they either pass, or take damage. it seems like the clearest example of the issue I've found.

[Soundwave]

EDIT: Nvm.