The new nexus of power

[Joel]

I meant slots in her crew. it depends on how many henchmen you feel like taking however. I don't like putting nexus on an enforcer though - paints a target and often out of position. Pandora does zip about the board still.

It's interesting to hear how different players use pandora though.

[Thaarup]

Could it not be useful in combination with "Stone of Tyrant Echoes" (if anyone uses it, that is)? I would guess it would be more of an support upgrade for a model close to the leader.

I dont play Neverborn at the moment as I only have Lucius and Collodi in the Neverborn Faction...but I am quite fond of the guild version of the stone.

[FearLord]

I meant slots in her crew. it depends on how many henchmen you feel like taking however. I don't like putting nexus on an enforcer though - paints a target and often out of position. Pandora does zip about the board still.

It's interesting to hear how different players use pandora though.

I doubt Nexus will paint such a big target anymore - its no longer the most devastating thing in the crew...

[vonevilstein]

I was using on it the Widow and yes it turned the Widow into a tank, which is not what it should be doing really. The net effect for me is that I probably bother with the Widow now but that really is an issue for the Widow in beta not for Nexus.

As for Nexus, my personal opinion is that faction wide cards should be for all crews. As all crews can use damage prevention stones I think it should trigger on that but only for one wound. At least, try it to start with.

[Mastershake]

I love the phrase "Must Consider". It's right up there with saying it isn't "That" bad. If you have to quantify it, you're just fooling yourself.

[Dracomax]

Um, no. Must consider is where EVERYTHING should be. it means that it is a serious contender for the spot, but that there are other things that are also serious contenders for the spot.

[Mastershake]

Um, no. Must consider is where EVERYTHING should be. it means that it is a serious contender for the spot, but that there are other things that are also serious contenders for the spot.

Nexus isn't a serious contender for anything right now.

[Helm]

My main concern is the effect that the cuddle will have on the rest of the faction. I know that all of my playtesting has been done with the old Nexus in mind, and imagine that this has been the case for a lot of other peoples' testing. Candy felt very effective for me when she held Nexus and tied down groups of enemies; can she do this any more? How about Taelor/Nexus? Is Aura of Decay going to be as good now that it doesn't have to counter Nexus?

While I'm very happy with this release in general, this kind of last-minute errata makes me worry a little about Wyrd. Is there someone who could suggest, in a very general way, whether or not this got significant internal playtesting while the faction models were being balanced? Because the wasted external playtesting is a real shame in my opinion.

That being said, at least we get to take the effect into account for Wave 2. Nekima and Widow Weaver in particular will have their effectiveness changed for me. I just hope we don't see a Book 2 syndrome again now that Wave 2 will be balanced post-cuddle.

[Mastershake]

My main concern is the effect that the cuddle will have on the rest of the faction. I know that all of my playtesting has been done with the old Nexus in mind, and imagine that this has been the case for a lot of other peoples' testing. Candy felt very effective for me when she held Nexus and tied down groups of enemies; can she do this any more? How about Taelor/Nexus? Is Aura of Decay going to be as good now that it doesn't have to counter Nexus?

While I'm very happy with this release in general, this kind of last-minute errata makes me worry a little about Wyrd. Is there someone who could suggest, in a very general way, whether or not this got significant internal playtesting while the faction models were being balanced? Because the wasted external playtesting is a real shame in my opinion.

That being said, at least we get to take the effect into account for Wave 2. Nekima and Widow Weaver in particular will have their effectiveness changed for me. I just hope we don't see a Book 2 syndrome again now that Wave 2 will be balanced post-cuddle.

This is where I'm at as well. Barbaros made a lot more sense at 10ss with the old Nexus, now that man is struggling to be worth it.

[Adran]

I can't speak for others, and I can't entirely remember what I did in Wave 1 playtesting but I bring it up when I find a model is only worthwhile if with 1 upgrade.

I certainly have played games with Barabos without nexus and he pulled his weight.

Prehaps he shouldn't be in the very middle of a huge ruck and survive everything, but he is certainly able to avoid that with his triggers.

[Helm]

I can't speak for others, and I can't entirely remember what I did in Wave 1 playtesting but I bring it up when I find a model is only worthwhile if with 1 upgrade.

This isn't really what I meant. Certainly no particular model could only be viable with Nexus, however its effect on Neverborn as a whole was significant; if it wasn't, Wyrd wouldn't be changing it right out of the gate.

Neverborn in the public playtesting got much more bang for their Soulstone while using Nexus of Power. SS users with defensive deficiencies could do well if positioned close to a Nexus carrier, and I believe that many playtest results reflected this.

My worry isn't for any particular model, but rather that the Neverborn were balanced with Nexus in mind. Take away Nexus, and you lower the Wave 1 models' defenses. If Wave 2 is balanced with new Nexus in mind, they will have better defensive abilities than Wave 1 models.

It's just a little close to Book 1 vs 2 for my liking. A new group of models balanced for higher performance than the initial group.

[Cats Laughing]

My worry isn't for any particular model, but rather that the Neverborn were balanced with Nexus in mind. Take away Nexus, and you lower the Wave 1 models' defenses. If Wave 2 is balanced with new Nexus in mind, they will have better defensive abilities than Wave 1 models.

Consider, however, that we're supposed to be (at least initially) testing Wave 1 vs Wave 2. With that in mind, Wave 2 should be getting tested against Wave 1 with new Nexus, which means that Wave 2 needs to be theoretically less offensively powerful to deal with Wave 1 with new Nexus, and this should apply to all Wave 2 factions (including Neverborn).

[Helm]

Consider, however, that we're supposed to be (at least initially) testing Wave 1 vs Wave 2. With that in mind, Wave 2 should be getting tested against Wave 1 with new Nexus, which means that Wave 2 needs to be theoretically less offensively powerful to deal with Wave 1 with new Nexus, and this should apply to all Wave 2 factions (including Neverborn).

Thank you for pointing that out, I'd never considered it that way.

I'm not sure that the influence upon level of general offence will be as great as the effect upon the Neverborn defense. I mean, offensively speaking, any given Faction will be most likely to be facing a Faction that will not have access to Nexus; meanwhile, every Neverborn Crew will have access to Nexus for defense. I'm also not really a fan of the idea of Wave 2 being less offensively powerful than Wave 1.

This does make me feel better, though, knowing it's not as simple as all that.

[Cats Laughing]

I'm hoping it's not a significant difference either way, though your original concern is a concern.

I think, there are a couple of possibilities:

1) Wave 1 was completely balanced (with old nexus rules) when released. Cuddling Nexus therefore cuddles Wave 1 Neverborn and likely makes Wave 1 other factions stronger by comparison, but since Wave 2 is in beta, Wave 2 can be balanced against everything as a whole, leaving only Wave 1 neverborn slightly behind.

2) Wave 1 wasn't completely balanced (with old Nexus rules) when released and Cuddling Nexus brought Wave 1 neverborn in line with everyone else. Wave 2 still in beta, should end up balanced overall.

3+) Many many gradients inbetween and outside the parameters of the above two.

I think 100% perfect balance is pretty much impossible in any game more complex than flipping a coin (and even then...), so what we're shooting for is "close enough" balance.

My hope is that our situation is closer to #2 proposed above and Cuddling Nexus helps put the Neverborn in line overall, and balance is close enough overall.

[Csonti]

My worry isn't for any particular model, but rather that the Neverborn were balanced with Nexus in mind. Take away Nexus, and you lower the Wave 1 models' defenses. If Wave 2 is balanced with new Nexus in mind, they will have better defensive abilities than Wave 1 models.

I experienced wave1 very differently. I was following the Neverborn section closely and actively but I couldn't remember so many playtest reports with Nexus used and heavily abused. As far as I can remember the only post regarding the possible OP status of the upgrade was written by me. So I think wave1 test of the faction in general was not conducted with Nexus' real power in mind. If it would be the case, Wyrd would cuddle it before printing I guess. Most people realized the true potential of NoP during wave2 when they put that on the otherwise also broken first week Nekima. But the problem was valid even in wave1 with for example Lilith&Barbaros.

[EnternalVoid]

I will admit I threw my concerns about Nexus wave 1 during the open beta, but after the early stuff alot of my playtesting went to Leveticus and then into proving other issues with other factions *such as going around on a sheer murder spree with Vengeance Bullet*. Save for the beginning my focus shifted from the Neverborn side *I also felt stuff like Lilith's tangled Vine was scary and that actually got better afterwards*. I honestly did think it was going to change when the book came out and was surprised when it had not but a couple other things had.

[Helm]

I experienced wave1 very differently. I was following the Neverborn section closely and actively but I couldn't remember so many playtest reports with Nexus used and heavily abused. As far as I can remember the only post regarding the possible OP status of the upgrade was written by me.

I can guarantee that your post was not the only one complaining about Nexus. Perhaps the only dedicated thread, but certainly not the only post.

And Nexus didn't need to be "heavily abused" to be good; it paid for itself the first time someone used a SS in its area of effect (since 1 ss prevents around 2 dg anyway). The benefits were easy to reap and provided a solid defensive bonus, which is why I'm concerned about the effect that a downgrade will have upon balance. Perhaps there wasn't a big noise about it within each report, but any battle where a) Nexus was present and 2SS were used in its area of effect was actively benefiting from Nexus from a Wounds perspective. I'm willing to bet that that's a *lot* of playtesting.

[TarlSS]

Huggy + Nexus doesn't really seem particularly strong anymore..thankfully I think he was really meant to go with other upgrades.

However, Huggy + Endless Hunger does not seem nearly as good a choice without being able to take Nexus for tankiness.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Well it now makes you have to weigh to options. Have a more effective darkness but be unable to resummon, have a less effective darkness but be able to keep bringing him back.

With nexus it was not only an absolute no Brainer choice but it also meant that Jakob was unarguably stronger as a NB master rather than a ten thunder master.

[Sharp_GT]

Well it now makes you have to weigh to options. Have a more effective darkness but be unable to resummon, have a less effective darkness but be able to keep bringing him back.

With nexus it was not only an absolute no Brainer choice but it also meant that Jakob was unarguably stronger as a NB master rather than a ten thunder master.

I will say I appreciate the crew building challenge presented to me as a primarily Jakob player, however the more combat oriented teams like Huggy (lets face it he's a team unto himslef) really appreciated the Nexus's old power. Especially in such a melee heavy crew, using nexus to keep huggy, barbaros, etc alive long enough to get them into combat was almost neccissary.

As is I will say I feel less shackled to playing Jakob only as neverborn; I can take him in 10T and use rising sun to keep huggy in the action. Sadly this means forcing a more focused darkened theme, but such is life. Huggy will just have to choose between playing more of a cruise missle or ninja type of game plan, instead of getting to play offensive super-tank.

I don't think there were cries of old version Nexus being broken because it wasn't abusable in a really unfair way, it was just way over-use-able. Using it neccessitated a lot of SS being set aside to keep the model it's on alive, but for the advantage granted... why would you ever not?

Overall I doubt I'll take nexus nearly as often as I have been now that it's been errata-ed (it was basically an auto take). But it won't be left at home against certain crews.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'd disagree people didn't find it OP, I ran into the darkness at gen con with that up grade and he weathered over 29+ attacks from a 3 model belle bomb and Sybelle and it cost him 4 stones. Old nexus was one of the very definitions if an OP option AND it was going to skew all design in the future. Survivability is one of the key attributes that balance a model. Make something balanced in survivability and then add nexus and you have an OP model. Make them when you take nexus into account at they became too fragile without it, thus making it a needed card to play.

[Joel]

I'd disagree people didn't find it OP, I ran into the darkness at gen con with that up grade and he weathered over 29+ attacks from a 3 model belle bomb and Sybelle and it cost him 4 stones. Old nexus was one of the very definitions if an OP option AND it was going to skew all design in the future. Survivability is one of the key attributes that balance a model. Make something balanced in survivability and then add nexus and you have an OP model. Make them when you take nexus into account at they became too fragile without it, thus making it a needed card to play.

I totally agree with this.

[zFiend]

I'd disagree people didn't find it OP, I ran into the darkness at gen con with that up grade and he weathered over 29+ attacks from a 3 model belle bomb and Sybelle and it cost him 4 stones. Old nexus was one of the very definitions if an OP option AND it was going to skew all design in the future. Survivability is one of the key attributes that balance a model. Make something balanced in survivability and then add nexus and you have an OP model. Make them when you take nexus into account at they became too fragile without it, thus making it a needed card to play.

100%.

[Sharp_GT]

I'd disagree people didn't find it OP, I ran into the darkness at gen con with that up grade and he weathered over 29+ attacks from a 3 model belle bomb and Sybelle and it cost him 4 stones. Old nexus was one of the very definitions if an OP option AND it was going to skew all design in the future. Survivability is one of the key attributes that balance a model. Make something balanced in survivability and then add nexus and you have an OP model. Make them when you take nexus into account at they became too fragile without it, thus making it a needed card to play.

Holy sh:crowst! As in 29 attacks were taken against huggy and it only took 4ss to keep him alive? Jeez, in that case yes, OP to a rediculous degree. Most of my experience with huggy+oldnexus was he got to be untouchable for a about the first 3 turns or so and then the SS's dry up and he'd be left hanging in the breeze.

I definitely agree with your second point: nexus as it was skewed balance and thus also skewed design of neverborn masters and henchmen. As I percieved it, the W1 models were balanced pretty well without nexus being abused (huggy happens to just abuse it worse than anyone else, wonder how that got through beta unnoticed...) it makes sense that they tone it back before oldnexus affects the design on W2 models.

[Fetid Strumpet]

To be fair there was a nurse paralyze as well, because the instant the darkness got free he started killing my belles right quick. But the point is outside of massive casting damage I was doing the most effective counter to incorporeal models which is hit them with ALOT of attacks. The thing with nexus was he could let the darkness take a hit or two, then damage prevent the next hit that came in, and heal back up to higher than he was when that attack started. Even without the nurse heal/ paralyze considered he weathered a single turn of 18+ attacks, the one turn none of my three belles failed their terror check, and was still smiling at the end.

All in all better it was changed. Although we can argue about the actual change as much as we like.