DeleteAccount Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 Well, my thanks button just imploded, but thanks a LOT for your post Nathan, insightful doesn't even cover it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 Tooling costs for plastic are pretty much a constant and thus stable cost. 3D sculpting, the same - obviously if it is a larger or more detailed piece or if multiple options are put out for it, it's going to cost more. Plastic itself, also a constant price more or less. You pay X and the prices don't fluctuate like the cost of metal does. It's also lighter, stacks easier, and as long as you don't have any issues such as too much release agent in the tooling, you get an exact replica of the tooling every time without tearing, shifting or miscasts and that in and of itself saves a LOT of time, money and plain ol' aggravation. When it comes to shipping, it's a huge savings. A thousand plastic sprues vs. a thousand metal miniatures, big difference in the cost of shipping, both to receive and to send right back out. When spin casting metal, the molds get used up pretty quickly and you find there are shift and tears as well as extra metal that hangs on due to the venting of the mold. We used to take the time to cut and clean those up because the presentation inside the clamshell would be better. That takes time, which equates to money, and all the extraneous metal adds up. We filled up eight of those orange home depot buckets and each one weighed somewhere around eighty pounds. That was over the course of a year. Now with that in mind, that was extra metal that we ended up paying shipping on, as well as cleaning. Adds up significantly. Oh, and you have to pay for the creation of new molds ... often. Now you take a larger piece like the Avatar Hoffman, there are lots of pieces, thus several molds. All of which need to be spun to get the amount you asked for. Larger pieces take longer to spin because they need to cool down before being released from the mold. Just like anything, time is money, and the longer it takes for the caster to spin up this piece, the more it costs. Take in to account all the pieces, time to cast, weight and shipping and then add in your costs to the overall to get your price so that you can make a profit after distribution takes it's cut and you find quickly that, in the case of metal Avatar Hoffman, it was just too damn expensive to manufacture and put out through distribution. My thanks button is gone, but wanted to say that I appreciate you taking the time to answer this, mainly because I've got an insatiable curiosity and always wondered about this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i_was_like_you Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 Insightful, indeed. So, when the lease comes up on Wyrd's Georgia warehouse, have you considered starting a new one in the vicinity of Gencon Indy? It'd save a lot of Gencon related expenses, from lodging and need for so many volunteers, to transporting product that could be shipped straight to the same city the highest volume of sales comes through. I'm sure there are other factors involved, like friends and family, etc., but we keep getting the impression that Wyrd lives or dies, not off of Black Friday like most other retailers, but on Gencon. Heck, having both Wyrd Georgia and Wyrd California seems like an unnecessary set of expenses right there. Re-consolidate back into one base of operations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 Agreed, modern techniques make casting in plastics an equal if not a superior material to use +1 New plastic puppet wars minis,particularly misaki??? The models are insanely detailed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavicusPrime Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 (edited) I love it when business-folk pull back the curtain and let us take a peek. What Nathan has revealed pretty much confirms what I was expecting. I worked for a wholesaler for 7 years and now at an aerospace manufacturer for 16 years. Anything that needs to go through a distribution network has to go through a series of mark-ups before it hits those shelves. The producer usually only gets 50% of that MSRP and the wholesaler/distributor usually only gets 5-10%. Then the FLGS has to survive on the 40% balance (less shipping and whatever discount they are willing to give). For the producer, there's all the upfront cost Nathan talked about. Tooling, design, etc. There's all the overhead of paying staff and everything that staff needs to do their jobs and the marketing required to get your products exposed to your customers (all those trade shows add up fast). The you've got to build your inventory and pay for the facilities to house your inventory and the bodies required to manage it. The actual direct labor and material cost for the model is a pretty small part of the deal. Then those wholesalers get their 5-10% sliver of the pie to pay for their inventory, facilities to hold it and bodies to manage it. And then the FLGS has to pay for their staff, facilities and inventory out of what's left. That $35 gets spread pretty thin. As for material costs, Nathan cleared up my last misconception regarding the metal to plastic cost issues. Going from an unstable material cost to one that's more predictable is a big deal. The business I'm in right now has some serious economies of scale working for it that little guys like Wyrd don't have access to. But we still feel it when the market price for our materials and/or component costs spike. You can't usually just jack up the price on the fly and keep your customers, so you end up eating it and that hurts, even more so for smaller businesses who don't have the resources we do. Thanks for all you guys do! And thanks for letting us see the release schedule more than a couple weeks out... Unlike some other company I know. -DavicusPrime Edited November 1, 2013 by DavicusPrime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phototoxin Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 Thanks for all you guys do! And thanks for letting us see the release schedule more than a couple weeks out... Unlike some other company I know. -DavicusPrime "But then people will be able to save and actually buy products they want and will use as opposed to… wait how do economics works again?" - Tom Kirby Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 Posting from fake accounts is against the rules. </mod voice> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornelious1424 Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 Until this game starts to require multiple models for units and rediculously oversized models to stay above the curve, the price for Malifaux is way cheaper than anything else out there. The new plastic kits are some of the best starter boxes for any game, and as a gamer, I'd happily spend 35-50 bucks to get me 75% of the way towards a "standard sized" crew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehren37 Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 I'm fairly sure it was said at the time of the book four metals that the price increases for metal weren't being put through to old releases in the same way as new metal. With this in mind the final metals (book4) are more expensive than those in the earlier books. For example a Warden is $18.00, compared to the slightly larger Guardian $12.50. Pale Rider is $35.00 and the larger Peacekeeper $25.00. Perdita Avatar is $45, so a $40 Fuhatsu is not out of line with existing metals. Perdita is riding a DRAGON. Fuhatsu is one slightly larger guy. I can buy a Dark Debts boxed set for 40, and that's 5 guys with extra parts. Heck, the mini darkness on the illuminated and the skeleton w Jacob are basically extra figures themselves. And its also effectively rare 1, unless we're getting the ability to double down on masters... When your pricing is more than a resin botique mini company, somethings wrong. I can get this guy cheaper... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 Which is an oppinion you're entitled to. I'd just say that we haven't seen Fuhatsu, we can't compare the size and scope of his mini to others in the range. We do know there are three models on his base, I'm expecting a big bad-asp model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ehren37 Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 Which is an oppinion you're entitled to. I'd just say that we haven't seen Fuhatsu, we can't compare the size and scope of his mini to others in the range. We do know there are three models on his base, I'm expecting a big bad-asp model. It might be. It still doesn't make the argument that they need to charge as much for him as an entire other master crew less suspect when the other crew has more parts, models and is also effectively rare 1. Misaki's box set is $35 for 6 models for comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rancor709 Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 Mythic I do hope he's grandeous and impressive center piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M_Ruckuss Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 For me it's like spartan: in the "core sets" you get more bang for your buck with the core crews then pay more for the biggies...much better than everything being expensive....it's still a really good value hobby anyway you look at it.... Dark debts is a popular starter and sells well, so cost of design process etc is easier to recoup. It's also duel faction so can be used by twice as many players who plan "factions" as a whole... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edonil Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 Anyone wanting to play Jakob is going to buy Dark Debts. But not everyone who plays Ten Thunders is going to buy Fuhatsu (I know I'm not planning on picking him up, personally). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavicusPrime Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 It might be. It still doesn't make the argument that they need to charge as much for him as an entire other master crew less suspect when the other crew has more parts, models and is also effectively rare 1. Misaki's box set is $35 for 6 models for comparison. Why do they have to argue the rationality of their pricing? The cost of models is based on more than the size/complexity/usefulness of the model. If Wyrd believes the price listed covers their cost (and all the factors that go into that cost), provides a desirable amount of profit and results in a reasonable MSRP for the middlemen and the retailers to work with, then so be it. If, in your opinion, the price is too high, then it will sell one less unit. Your money does the talking far more effectively than a forum post. -DavicusPrime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 Also there are some very informative posts from Nathan about why pricing is the way it is a couple of pages back. I feel like we're going over that same ground again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Laughing Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 Side note: (I know, I know, comparing other companies is unstable ground) Both Games Workshop and Privateer Press (and likely other gaming companies) price starter boxes (such as the Cygnar Battlebox) at a price that is less that the combined components of the box. This is typically done to get customers to buy into the game/faction/crew at a lower starting point so they're more likely to stick around and buy more. Many other lines of business do this sort of "get the customer in the door" pricing. It is rather likely the Wyrd also prices the Master boxes at a price lower than they would if they sold each model individually (or in groups for minions), at which point, comparing a Master box to an individual model (such as comparing the Lynch box to Fuhatsu) is not an Apples to Apples comparison. FWIW, the Mechanical Rider is $35 (1 metal model) and the Rasputina box (5 metal models) was, iirc, $31. Not an Apples to Apples comparison to compare those two boxes to each other, but an apt comparison to the Fuhatsu vs Misaki box comparison previously mentioned. Side note, I still haven't gotten a Mechanical Rider, because it doesn't meet my personal cost-benefit analysis, but I'll likely get the new Pandora box (even though I already have the old box and alt fig) because it does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
decker_cky Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 BTW, I'm guessing Marcus' box set is the same as the current one, with a jackalope added. Razorspine Rattler and Sabertooth Cerberus are $18 each, plus Myranda, Marcus and the Jackalope still looks like a pretty good deal for $50. Cojo could be there instead of one of the other pieces, but the value looks right. Can't wait to see what the models will actually look like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 I can only pray that the Marcus and Ramos box aren't as awesome as the art makes me think they'll be, I don't need to go kneedeep into another faction... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister Shine Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 Finally my grey horde comes in handy! Im free to replace Ramos things because I havent done anything with mine! Mwahahaha Boohoohoo! MY MONEYYYYYYYY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRC Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 It is rather likely the Wyrd also prices the Master boxes at a price lower than they would if they sold each model individually (or in groups for minions), at which point, comparing a Master box to an individual model (such as comparing the Lynch box to Fuhatsu) is not an Apples to Apples comparison. A couple years ago I did the math, and with the old metal starter boxes, roughly speaking, they include one model free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twg Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 I think the prices are very fair in comparison for what I currently pay at GW. The start cost is low, the models are good quality and I get quality feedback from the company, which is very rare indeed. I actually feel valued as a customer by Wyrd, which is something I don't find in other companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritz the cat Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 I do love a good dose of truth and reality. Nice to see the details Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cats Laughing Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 A couple years ago I did the math, and with the old metal starter boxes, roughly speaking, they include one model free. Which is pretty comparable to PP, which also pretty much includes a free model in their starter boxes (or a free faction in the 2 player sets)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted November 1, 2013 Report Share Posted November 1, 2013 Oh wow. A lot sure does happen on these forums that has nothing to do with rules. *is confused* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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