New Cards for old models....An appeal for card singles

[Iron Heel]

At the face of it, the Arsenal boxes don't look like too bad of a deal: $8 for wave one of a faction...okay.

That is great and all as long as you focus your playing on a caster like LJ or Seamus...but Malifaux has many other masters for whom "faction" is less meaningful.

This comes into play with dual faction masters. I have Lynch and fluffy support models from Gencon 2012. In order to play the full fluffy crew I would need to get Wave 1 Arsenal boxes for NB and TT...and then perhaps each of those for Wave 2 depending on where folks primary faction resides. That is $32 to play the fluffy crew.

Think of Levi or Marcus who can build crews around figure categories other than "faction" (like Beast, Undead, Construct, and so on).

Now think about Levi, Marcus, or some such complete faction-ignorer...you may end up needing to buy almost every faction deck!

As someone who was building up the models to run a Levi crew for M2E, I am not too pleased about this. I ended up with a few models from Guild, Outcasts, Archanists, & Rezzers (not all represented in Wave 1). I may end up needing to buy $64 of card boxes between wave 1 & 2 just to play the model I have for this one crew!

Wyrd...Please offer singles through your site again. :Stuck_Puppet:

[zFiend]

Op has a good point.

[Manic Mouse]

Also don't forget that generic upgrades for factions are ONLY in arsenal packs. So if you pick up a new crew and want to use a generic upgrade you have to buy the arsenal pack. And some "generic" upgrades are essential to certain crews like McMourning with the transfusion upgrade.

I see this as a bigger problem - new players will be forced to buy arsenal decks on top of their crew boxes for a handful of cards that probably should have been in the crew box to begin with. And as someone who plans on re-buying all his crews in plastic (I far prefer the new artwork and plastic models) I need to add $64 to that just for the generic upgrades since I have at least one master from each faction.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Manic Mouse

[Fetid Strumpet]

Or trade for the cards you want. I see why you would want this. But seriously consider the financial costs. I'm honestly of the opinion it wouldn't be at all feasible until and unless Wyrd is able to make such a deck an AoD item, which would also mean that the quality would likely be less than the regular cards, and such a deck would be more expensive because there would be less people buying it.

Also consider that wyrd said they are making little to no money on the arsenal decks because they are selling the as inexpensively as they can so that people have to spend minimal investment in order to play with what they already have. Consider that because of that the demand for the arsenal decks is known to be very high, and so they most likely printed a staggeringly massive amount of each. The volume of the order with the printers is going to also reduce the cost to wyrd significantly, which in turn reduced the cost to us.

Printing boutique decks such as the Marcus beast deck, or the Jacob lynch deck, or the mcmorning guild/resser deck is only a good solution for a minimum amount of their fan base, and would be very expensive as a result, which would still not satisfy the customer base.

I totally get your annoyance, I'm getting bit by it too, but really consider the costs involved in both manufacture, supply, and storing the unsold, lower demand decks that are involved and honestly I personally just don't see it as feasible.

Now you could also do what I'm doing. There isn't going to be as much demand for specific decks, but there is going to be demand for specific cards. That people need more of. For example I have Jakob, but I absolutely and totally loath the very idea of 10t as a faction and will never play a 10t master as that faction. I still had to buy the TT arsenal pack to get Jakob's cards and upgrades, the rest of the deck i'm going to be both giving away cards in my local area, if and when I can grow it again now that I've moved, trading cards for others I need, (if anyone needs some arcanist or TT cards and has 2 spare canine remains let me know), or selling them. Consider that if you sell the cards you don't need to people who need them at Wyrd's own old price at .50 a card you only need to sell 16 of them to totally pay for the initial cost of the deck.

[Manic Mouse]

I ordered 6 arsenal packs with my gencon order and will be distributing cards among my local players. Still down $56 with at least another $8 to go. It's nice to give cards to other people and make them happy, it's less nice having to fit the bill.

Going to have to buy ANOTHER guild deck just for the pathfinder card - there's another $8.

Arsenal decks are only good if you need a decent number of cards from them. If you only need a handful, or even one then you're straight out of luck (and $8 + P&P).

Wyrd offered individual cards before, no reason why they couldn't do it again - I'd rather pay $.50 for a pathfinder card than pay another $8 of the wave 2 guild box.

And generic upgrades should be in master boxes.

If Wyrd are making little money on the arsenal decks then in many situations it's a lose-lose. Wyrd don't make money, customers feel ripped off at being forced to buy a deck for a few cards - especially new players looking for generic upgrades. So this isn't even a problem that goes away unless Wyrd offer some alternative for getting generic upgrades.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Manic Mouse

[Fenton Crack]

In the short term, I see players in the instances of only needing a card or two from additional decks simply using the beta cards with any necessary changes made by the simple use of a pen. Granted there are some cards with more significant changes than a number here or there, but most are easily converted. I realize this may not be an option for new players that did not participate in the beta, however.

[Mason]

Or you could just photocopy the cards in the rulebook, cut them out, and put them in a deck protector with a playing card behind the printouts to add a bit of firmness to them.

[Manic Mouse]

Or you could just photocopy the cards in the rulebook, cut them out, and put them in a deck protector with a playing card behind the printouts to add a bit of firmness to them.

And if they want to play in tournaments? As far as I was aware only official cards are tolerated.

[Mako]

And generic upgrades should be in master boxes.

That issue was raised before gencon and thrashed pretty much to death - the guys even came on and said that they chose this route because in the long run its better than adding cost to every crew box, which is what would have happened if they'd put the generic upgrades in the boxes. They can't win here - people with one crew in many factions complain about this, and people with one faction but all the plastic crews would complain about paying repeatedly for the generic upgrades. It's not likely to change now, given the arsenal packs have been released.

In terms of single cards, I think it's more likely that we'll see a large trading network build up - I only need the wave 1 neverborn pack for beckoners, so do I buy it and see who wants the rest (including generic upgrades) or do I see if I can get the cards in trade, or do I just buy the deck and say 'oh well, $8 isn't so bad' (which is what I did for the outcast generic upgrades, honestly)...?

[Fenton Crack]

I bought decks I did not need just for the use of the play group. It is not ideal since more than one Ayer might want the same card, and we would have to resort to the edited beta cards as mentioned. Buy one of each deck for the group is also not without expense, however compared to the cost of the 6 packs of TerraClips, which is also an investment made to benefit the group and grow the game, it did not seem like a big deal.

[Marcalla]

Or even more likely will be a secondary market of individual card dealers breaking the decks into singles and selling them off.

I was quite annoyed at first. But the more I think about it the more I like the way they are rolling out. With buying the arsenal decks, I get access to all the cards for models I have plus any other models I wish to convert.

So for 16 bucks I have all the model cards for the faction, I can convert the models I don't already have until and if I buy the upcoming boxes.

[Mason]

And if they want to play in tournaments? As far as I was aware only official cards are tolerated.

If so, then that's a pretty stupid restriction. It's the exact same wording on the card as it is in the book; why would it make a difference?

I don't plan on requiring official cards for any of our tournaments.

[Iron Heel]

I'd forgotten about the upgrades issue.

Still another reason to offer singles as my Tara set just rose from $80 to $96 because of that.

I wouldn't harp on this so much except that they were able to do it for 1.0-1.5 and I was really impressed with that service to the Mailfaux community.

I've got a couple problems with the secondary card market:

1. It is a PitA and may entail waiting quite a while for the full # of cards you need.

2. There are cards that will be much more "needed" and thus harder to come by. How many people will only need the beckoners from the NB deck?

[Manic Mouse]

If so, then that's a pretty stupid restriction. It's the exact same wording on the card as it is in the book; why would it make a difference?

I don't plan on requiring official cards for any of our tournaments.

Even then, what about wave 2 models which aren't going to be in any book from what I understand?

They can't win here - people with one crew in many factions complain about this, and people with one faction but all the plastic crews would complain about paying repeatedly for the generic upgrades. It's not likely to change now, given the arsenal packs have been released.

Actually having them in the crew boxes at an increased cost (which is about $1-1.50 max based on the arsenal price per card) screws the least people over. As it is everyone new to the game has to pay *at least* $8 extra for the arsenal pack cards and that's only if they collect one faction. If you collect five or fewer masters per faction then actually you do win. The only people that would potentially be worse off with pack-ins would be those who buy the new plastics of every crew in one faction. Which will likely be a tiny number of people. As it is *everyone* is paying over the odds and getting redundant cards as opposed to a minority with pack ins.

So no, I don't buy that explanation. As it is *everyone* new has to pay over-the-odds for generic upgrade cards. With pack ins only a small minority would be paying more than the current system, the vast majority of players will save money. And even those people who have every master for a faction, the instant they buy a new master for a new faction are already up on the current scheme.

The arsenal decks don't make much sense once everything is available in plastics and people already have cards for all their models and model-specific upgrade cards, so hopefully then we'll see cheap foil generic upgrade packs instead. Because if you collect plastic the generic upgrades are the only reason to buy the arsenal packs (aside from back-ups). Sucks for people paying at the moment to get generic upgrade cards.

I was under the impression the arsenal packs were for people with 1.5 models to easily get 2.0 cards for them, which is completely fine. I didn't think new players would have to buy them for the new models to have all the cards, which I don't think is fine since it's a complete waste buying an arsenal pack for <12 cards.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Manic Mouse

[Csonti]

Wyrd offered individual cards before, no reason why they couldn't do it again - I'd rather pay $.50 for a pathfinder card than pay another $8 of the wave 2 guild box.

Why I would be also delighted to get the chance to buy individual cards, I think there is a very good reason they couldn't do it again. And this is logistics and the costs it involves. Previously Wyrd offered Book1 and maybe a selected few Book2 model cards on the shop. Now they have 4 books from the previous version and the new M2E book. Even the later contains some new models so the number of playable characters has risen quite substantialy. Keeping track of so many individual items regarding ordering, manufacturing, storing, packing, accounting, inventory etc. would probably demand much more in resources than 0,5$.

[Helm]

On one hand, I'm going to be paying about £40 for 5 faction decks, most of the cards in which I won't need.

On the other hand, I'll be able to buy any metal or plastic model from shops or ebay in my chosen factions and just play them. I like the thought of being able to pay 5 quid for a Malifaux Child without having to send off to Wyrd for some individual card or buy a slightly cheaper "Mercenaries Deck".

Some new players may have to buy 2 faction decks to use their first Master in tournaments that don't allow a) playing from book or photocopied cards. An extra £8 startup cost can be annoying, but is completely overshadowed by the cost of paints etc.

Ultimately, isn't this a temporary problem affecting only a subset of players?

[nilus]

If so, then that's a pretty stupid restriction. It's the exact same wording on the card as it is in the book; why would it make a difference?

I don't plan on requiring official cards for any of our tournaments.

Its in Gaining Grounds and the reason is two fold

1) Everyone having the same cards makes it easier on everyone. Photocopies can be scaled different sizes, or harder to read, or info can be cut off. Plus if a model every has significant errata the theory is a new card can be printed for them.

2) A very small minority of players will cheat to win and its really easy to modify a photocopied card to alter a stat block.

I don't really enforce this at my local events because I know everyone, but at places like Gencon or Adepticon its strictly enforced

[mythicFOX]

It's down to what used to be (and maybe still is is) called Rules Enforcement Level in Magic; the Gathering. I wouldn't expect anyone to be turned away from an event at their local store or a beginners event for having a photocopy card etc.

Especially for an upgrade as ubiquitous as the common faction upgrade cards.

[Matney X]

I think this is another issue of just waiting a bit for things to settle.

Like Mako said, the best scenario here will be a trade/buy network of single cards. For example I only play guild and now gremlins so I had plenty of cards to give away to friends/trade. On top of that if you are only trading/buying singles, you can pretty much ship it on the mail, stick a stamp on the envelope for 41C and you are good to go.

I bought both the Rasputina crew, and Arcanist's Arsenal box (same with Viks and Outcasts), so I'm going to have doubles. As I buy more M2E models, I'll end up with extra cards that I won't need. I am 100% fine with trading/selling those to people who only want singles.

[Morgan Vening]

Its in Gaining Grounds and the reason is two fold

1) Everyone having the same cards makes it easier on everyone. Photocopies can be scaled different sizes, or harder to read, or info can be cut off. Plus if a model every has significant errata the theory is a new card can be printed for them.

2) A very small minority of players will cheat to win and its really easy to modify a photocopied card to alter a stat block.

I don't really enforce this at my local events because I know everyone, but at places like Gencon or Adepticon its strictly enforced

I don't see it as a problem, as long as you add the following criteria.

(*) An original copy must be used, and duplicate copies are only permitted if the number of cards exceeds that of the Arsenal pack.

So a photocopy of a Unique wouldn't be allowed, but wanting a 4th Guild Marshall (cause you've got the Miss), or summoning a 4th Rotten Belle doesn't require an extra Arsenal pack.

Morgan Vening

[Tye_Informer]

I said this in the prior thread, but I'll say it again here (hopefully more eloquently or something.

I completely understand not wanting to shell out $16 (or $32) to get the few cards you need to play your dual-faction master. When it's put that way, I'd hate it too. If all you want is the cards to play your models, then the new deck system is not ideal. I have a friend that I play 40k with, he has a copy of every current codex. That's probably $500 worth of books, just so that he knows the stats of his opponent. Buying less than $100 worth of cards to have all the stats is much better. No matter which way Wyrd did it, it won't be ideal for everyone.

In regards to needing singles, there are 2 possibilities.

1) There is a big need/demand for individual cards. If this is the case, then I can see asking Wyrd to do this. Makes their customers happy and makes money for Wyrd. However, this also means that people can pay $8 for an arsenal box and make money hand-over-fist selling the individual cards on ebay.

If you believe this is the case, then buy a few decks and start selling cards. Wyrd has said they are not interested in doing this anymore, so no problems. Very little startup costs and huge profit. If only 10 cards in a deck are worth $1 each plus shipping (which is not really high demand and need) than you make 25% profit for every deck you buy. If demand is really high, than there would be a few (5 at least) in each deck that are worth $2 and a bunch more worth $1, so at least $20 profit in each deck. If that is true, I'll pull all my money out of the bank and start selling cards! 200% interest is hard to get in a bank.

or

2) There is not a big demand/need for individual cards. If this is the case, then Wyrd is making the right choice and those of us that want extra cards should be able to get them from friends pretty easily. Wyrd did the individual cards thing for a while, so they may know the market better than I do.

I suspect 2 is the case, so I'm not buying packs to break up and sell.

I bought the Outcast and Arcanist arsenal packs. So far, I only use Raspy, Ramos, and the Viks. I will soon be using Tara, so I'll buy the Resurectionists arsenal pack as well.

Here's my offer. If you need cards out of any of those 3 packs and live within an hour or so drive of me, I'll drive to your local game store and give you the cards in exchange for a friendly fun game (using your new cards that I just gave you, no less!). I'm sure there are others that feel just like I do.

Hey, if you are a decent person who is fun to play, I'll even buy one of the other faction decks just so I can give you some cards in exchange for a game! This game is fun and I can afford the cost of an $8 deck to help a few people out, hopefully make a new friend or two, and have some fun playing a game I like.

[Matney X]

Here's my offer. If you need cards out of any of those 3 packs and live within an hour or so drive of me, I'll drive to your local game store and give you the cards in exchange for a friendly fun game (using your new cards that I just gave you, no less!). I'm sure there are others that feel just like I do.

Hey, if you are a decent person who is fun to play, I'll even buy one of the other faction decks just so I can give you some cards in exchange for a game! This game is fun and I can afford the cost of an $8 deck to help a few people out, hopefully make a new friend or two, and have some fun playing a game I like.

That's a great idea. I'll second it.

[r4st4f4n]

I just expect, after the end of the second beta and launch of the full game, shop, molds and printing presses at full capacity, the release of full Faction Decks for about 10-12$, along with, but long-term instead of, the early indispensable 8$ Wave1 + Wave2(more cards, no book, price up, down...?) Decks, to keep the average charge of 3 Decks for an average Dual-Faction player + Mercenaries much closer to 30$ than to 60$.

And I believe that I will not be disappointed, after all.

--------------------

Oh, and a more universal ~20-25$ Rules Handbook, like old 1.5 one, without the pages of wave 1 cards

Edited August 28, 2013 by r4st4f4n

[dgraz]

I just expect, after the end of the second beta and launch of the full game, shop, molds and printing presses at full capacity, the release of full Faction Decks for about 10-12$, along with, but long-term instead of, the early indispensable 8$ Wave1 + Wave2(more cards, no book, price up, down...?) Decks, to keep the average charge of 3 Decks for an average Dual-Faction player + Mercenaries much closer to 30$ than to 60$.

And I believe that I will not be disappointed, after all.

It's been clarified that full decks are only in the 'possible' category. wave 1 and wave 2 decks are certain......if full decks are released, they will be a long way off.

[r4st4f4n]

It's been clarified that full decks are only in the 'possible' category. wave 1 and wave 2 decks are certain......if full decks are released, they will be a long way off.

I know, but since I live in a country that, in addition to being far, is a hole in Wyrd's network coverage, I've learned to patiently and optimistically wait Most times... (Now, that is a lie...)

Edited August 28, 2013 by r4st4f4n