Helping/Fixing Molly

[CRC]

If we were going to fix Whispered Secret, I'd rather see it drop the :crows (maybe gain a :tomes instead), and last until the end of the turn.

Lasting until the end of the turn makes it better for her (which it needs to be), and worse for the totem (where I think it's a little too good).

Needing a suit to summon is fine. Needing a suit for a Philosophy is fine. I don't think she needs a source for a second :crows.

Imbue Vigor seems too hard to cast, however, the ability to cast it on enemies to make Lure super effective is very powerful. After consideration, I agree with the people that say it needs to lose its suit, either by changing the CC or by adding Dual Focused.

[xeth1313]

I really think that a blister would be the way to solve this. There are so many models that have been put out after the fact that modify other model. The Wicked Doll's "A Voodoo Doll," The Rogue Necromancy's (undead construction?), Vanessa's' "Another Sister." This model, make it Rare 2, Rare 3 when crew is led by molly, now you have a reason to lead with her like Ophelia. Give it a once per turn per crew movement trick a(0) maybe? Molly is pretty slow moving for a henchman. Then give it a another (0) or two, one that gives it a suit to it's attack for a trigger that removes WP immunities. With one set of models we have a faster more combative Molly, with no errata. Heck, if we give it an ability that lets it be summoned for one corpse counter with Molly's summon spell its even a renewable resource for her. Then the next time someone goes to but a Molly box it's just like any other Master/Hench,"Yeah, that playable, but you really want to get Molly and the Crooligans going? Buy a blister of (insert new Molly workhorse model name here)." just like the Vics and Ronin, or Hoffman and a Peacekeeper, or Zoriada and a Voodoo Doll. Box + Blister = Go time.

Edited December 12, 2012 by xeth1313
spelling and grammar

[Kadeton]

How about something very straight-forward for starters like "Casting Expert" and her Copy spell is changed to KEEP the spell until a different spell is copied. So, when facing an immune crew, should could at least have brought a minion with some sort of spell that targets Df or whatever and copy that. (I know that she gets a crippled version of what I am asking for via her totem, but I am asking for MORE than that because if that was good enough, we would not be having this conversation)

I'd go even further: let her cast a (1) spell from any friendly Undead model within 6", without having to copy it. Basically a re-worded version of Myranda's Animal Instincts.

But then, I'd also change Undead Construction to allow summoning a Rogue Necromancy for 4 CC - she's supposed to have some affinity for the thing, after all.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I know why she can't, and I agree with it, but if we are wishing I wish she could summon Yin.

[Kadeton]

@xeth1313: I'm more in favour of actually fixing models than making new ones to buff them up to what they should be - doing that locks in "must-have" choices for crew selection, and in my opinion that's a bad thing (especially with a crew whose selection is already as limited as Molly's).

Creating a new model is undeniably easier and more likely to happen, though.

I know why she can't, and I agree with it, but if we are wishing I wish she could summon Yin.

I though about that when I was writing my suggestion above - basically just removing the size restriction on Horrors and letting her summon them (with extra CCs, of course). However, I already think it's a bit silly that she can summon Sybelle.

[Fetid Strumpet]

While I frankly wonder why Seamus can't. Sybelle isn't that great of a model and bringing her into the game has never turned the game around for me while using Molly. Frankly I'd hope that whenever Malifaux 2.0 comes around if Sybelle isn't vastly improved I hope that Seamus is able to summon her.

[Cats Laughing]

I think it would be an interesting* change if Whispered Secret took the spell away from enemy targets, rather than just giving it to Molly. Then the times I've pulled December's Curse or Ice Pillars off Rasputina would be much more disturbing and offensive.

*I'm not presenting this idea as a good fix, though it would somewhat increase Molly's power. It's more of an interesting change, that would still have problems with I2I.

My biggest concerns/issues when I've used Molly (as Leader) are:

-I2I enemies cuddle her abilities and many of her crew abilities

-Her crew selections are limited and lack hitting power (the Rogue has hitting power, but is one model that's a bit too fragile to rely on), especially against models with Armor.

Just as a quick thought, Onryo could help with both of those issues, but I admit that's just off the top of my head and probably not a great/perfect fix.

I haven't had major issues with the suits question in my Molly lead crews, as she's the only one who really needs the Crows. I do see that helping her with her suit needs (thru Dual Focused, an added Crow bonus ability or just dropping the extra Crow requirement) would make her more reliable. She would still suffer against I2I where she won't be casting at all. She'd also have issues with her crew limitations and their collective output.

Note: I run only Molly as a leader and never as a underling. I do understand that when she works for a Master she has totally different issues.

I think this is a bit of a problem in "fixing" Molly. She needs to be balanced for both for her interactions in a Master-lead crew and also when she's leading a crew. Much of her Molly-as-Leader issues are directly related to her lack of crew options (where a new release can help). Her under-a-Master issues appear to be a bit more directed towards her cost and unreliability (suit dependance and competition with the Master).

Perhaps something helping her suit dependency would be enough direct errata for Molly, while a new crew option will help with her Leadership issues. If that new option is also a Belle, it can help with Seamus's issues as well (iirc we're still considering him a bit underpowered, right?).

[Pierowmaniac]

I think it would be an interesting* change if Whispered Secret took the spell away from enemy targets, rather than just giving it to Molly. Then the times I've pulled December's Curse or Ice Pillars off Rasputina would be much more disturbing and offensive.

*I'm not presenting this idea as a good fix, though it would somewhat increase Molly's power. It's more of an interesting change, that would still have problems with I2I.

My biggest concerns/issues when I've used Molly (as Leader) are:

-I2I enemies cuddle her abilities and many of her crew abilities

-Her crew selections are limited and lack hitting power (the Rogue has hitting power, but is one model that's a bit too fragile to rely on), especially against models with Armor.

Just as a quick thought, Onryo could help with both of those issues, but I admit that's just off the top of my head and probably not a great/perfect fix.

I haven't had major issues with the suits question in my Molly lead crews, as she's the only one who really needs the Crows. I do see that helping her with her suit needs (thru Dual Focused, an added Crow bonus ability or just dropping the extra Crow requirement) would make her more reliable. She would still suffer against I2I where she won't be casting at all. She'd also have issues with her crew limitations and their collective output.

Note: I run only Molly as a leader and never as a underling. I do understand that when she works for a Master she has totally different issues.

I think this is a bit of a problem in "fixing" Molly. She needs to be balanced for both for her interactions in a Master-lead crew and also when she's leading a crew. Much of her Molly-as-Leader issues are directly related to her lack of crew options (where a new release can help). Her under-a-Master issues appear to be a bit more directed towards her cost and unreliability (suit dependance and competition with the Master).

Perhaps something helping her suit dependency would be enough direct errata for Molly, while a new crew option will help with her Leadership issues. If that new option is also a Belle, it can help with Seamus's issues as well (iirc we're still considering him a bit underpowered, right?).

More good input to the discussion thanks

I think you give Molly Issues a good overview/summary.

I don't think the new horror needs to be a Belle for Seamus (he really needs to be fixed without adding another model [ie like his avatar]) but it would certainly be an interesting concept to explore fluff wise......maybe some sort of Belle Spirit Horror that is forever tormented and trapped to do Seamus's bidding and is trying to escape via Mollys influence and rising power ....ooO that sounds much better reading it back than when I typed it

[PZN]

Ok summon RN in the normal way was not a good Idea. Forgive me, but what do you think about the Idea if Molly is able to summon the RN in a way Yan Lo summons a died ancestor? I thought something like that:

• Molly is only allowed to summon the RN if she starts in a crew that includes the RN at the beginning of the encounter. This means you have already paid the 9ss.
  
• The summoned RN gains the equal number of Wds she discards CCs during the spell. Minimum the 2CCs (0) Undead Construction requires. This is also the new maximum of the RNs Wds. In the majority of cases its less than 5Wds so the summoned RN losses automatically (+2) Three Headed.
  
• If the RN is killed within her 4 Extraordinary Dead she may drop the spell (0) Whispered Secret and grain instead the RNs spell (1) Acid Breath for the rest of the encounter or till the moment RN is summoned by her. If she summons a killed RN she automatically drop (1) Acid Breath and grained (0) Whispered Secret again.
  

Hopefully you guys like this suggestion more than my last!

I guess it’s more realistic? Feel free to discuss about it.

[Fetid Strumpet]

If the Necro only had an amount of wounds = to the number of corpse counters spent on it it wouldn't be worth re summoning. When McMorning summons one at full HP it still rarely lasts to the end of the round. Realistically you'd only have an average of 3 wounds, the amount of CC the Necro drops, and for good combat models that will drop the necro in one hit.

I honestly don't think it would be unbalancing for her to be able to summon the necro, but I don't think it's a viable solution to fixing her.

[ooshawn]

Molly has so much potential, if only crooligans and rogue necromancy were better. Wyrd really needs somebody like me to have the final say on rules for miniatures, that actually plays every miniature game out there , including malifaux.

[Boshea]

The Rogue Necromancy is fine, the problem with Molly is that she can't bring it back once it dies. Crooligans on the other hand could use some buffs, mainly making mist easier to cast or a 0 action.

[Omenbringer]

Wyrd really needs somebody like me to have the final say on rules for miniatures, that actually plays every miniature game out there , including malifaux.

Wow!!! Hopefully this is a bit tongue in cheek.

Edited December 29, 2012 by Omenbringer

[Mordeqai]

I would almost make the opposite argument. I had Molly in an objective game, coupled with Bete, for some SERIOUS aggravation from my opponent. He played McCabe, and I was playing Nicodem with a Molly henchman.

1st Turn: Murdered a Canine Remains for a corpse counter, and Placed Bete in aange of Molly's spell-stealing (0) action. Then Molly proceeded to copy Bete's "Mark for Death", and continued to cast it on McCabe. The kicker? Molly can use soulstones as a henchman. I ended up with a 31 on the attacking WP duel, and McCabe used a soulstone to get his to a total defense of ~20 (Flipped low).

McCabe was insignificant, and couldn't do anything for his objective-based VP. For the rest of the game

So, what I'm trying to say, is that Molly's powerhouse-ness comes from her ability to use any (1) spell in the game, AND soulstone it to make it almost assuredly go off. She's a terrible model alone, due to her power spells requiring almost melee, but coupled with the correct units (Bete, Nicodem, Mortimer, The Hanged), she can destroy anything.

And if you really want to run on thin ice with the rules, I believe you may be able to use a totem's (1) Magical Extension to use Molly's copied (1) spells, without exhausting its use for Molly. I.e. unlimited copies from that (1) spell. I'm not sure, so don't take my word for it, but it's worth a thought or two.

[Kadeton]

And if you really want to run on thin ice with the rules, I believe you may be able to use a totem's (1) Magical Extension to use Molly's copied (1) spells, without exhausting its use for Molly. I.e. unlimited copies from that (1) spell. I'm not sure, so don't take my word for it, but it's worth a thought or two.

You can absolutely do this, no thin ice at all. The totem's not as good at casting (and is much more easily killed) but it's a more efficient and easier way to get Use Soulstone versions of some amazing spells without having to re-copy them every time you want to cast them.

The main issue is the points outlay. Molly + The Hanged + Grave Spirit, for example, can throw some devastation around (if you can afford the stones) but that's a huge chunk of your force dedicated to it.

[Ausplosions]

Molly has so much potential, if only crooligans and rogue necromancy were better. Wyrd really needs somebody like me to have the final say on rules for miniatures, that actually plays every miniature game out there , including malifaux.

Wow.

I hope this is a joke.

[Usiel]

I would love to a general totem that provides casting help for the Ressers... the over-reliance on crows hurts the entire faction. Molly and Nico in particular would benefit from a totem that could hand out crows the same way the Mobile Toolkit gives out tomes. Maybe the same totem could also cast The Mist (and, while I'm at it, could also count as a crooligan itself? :1_Happy_Puppet1: )

[shipwreckgirl]

I would love to a general totem that provides casting help for the Ressers... the over-reliance on crows hurts the entire faction. Molly and Nico in particular would benefit from a totem that could hand out crows the same way the Mobile Toolkit gives out tomes. Maybe the same totem could also cast The Mist (and, while I'm at it, could also count as a crooligan itself? :1_Happy_Puppet1: )

Oh, I like this idea. I really don't think Molly needs much. Just a few extra crew choices like this would really help her.

[sharpobjects]

Molly has so much potential, if only crooligans and rogue necromancy were better. Wyrd really needs somebody like me to have the final say on rules for miniatures, that actually plays every miniature game out there , including malifaux.

As the game fades off into the sunset...........

[Mehter]

As the game fades off into the sunset...........

Huh

[Sezar]

Played Molly as a Master yesterday for the first time (had her Henchmen with Seamus tons of games, btw), and had a blast with the crew.

Hired 2 Belles, 1 Doxy, Grave Spirit, 2 Crooligans, Yin and the Rogue Necromancy (40ss).

Having Yin helping the Necromancy, with the Crooligans Mist-covering them, really helped; also got a summoned Sybelle mid game, so my Horrors were happy bruising my opponent. Add to that the other 3 Belles doing their tricks, I was really surprised that I found it to be a pretty versátil and funny Crew to play with.

The decisive winning moment of the game was a True Form cast From the Rogue Necromancy who made 8 models fall back (including 3 of my own hehehe). Yin's and the Crooligan's -1 Wp also helped there.

The only one who barely did nothing was Molly! She had a hard time catching all the other members of the Crew, faster than her, and appart From the passive Wk bonus and summoning Sybelle, she could only help the Crew by succesfully casting an Acid Breath on the sixth turn to finish 2 already wounded models.

But well, I managed to get a firm victory, so that is great anyway

Edited January 12, 2013 by Sezar

[PZN]

Now I really want to play a Molly leaded game while proxing Yin!

Last time Molly leaded my Crew I feel very sad.

Edited January 9, 2013 by PZN

[rancor709]

What crew did u face sezar?

[Clement]

Was this a 40ss game? That looks like 40ss worth of crew.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Molly has a henchman reserve of 5, so this could still be a 35 SS crew if Molly brought no stones to the game.