Is the number of cards in your control hand public knowledge?

[Grimm Riggins]

My opponent and I ran into this problem in last night's game, and I couldn't find an answer by searching these forums.

Is the number of cards in your control hand supposed to be public knowledge? He argued that, since certain things are called out as being public knowledge (i.e. model stats, the top card of your discard pile) and the number of cards in your control hand was specifically not, that he did not have to tell me how many cards he had in his hand. My thoughts on the matter are that that interpretation allows much more room for cheating, as we now have no accountability except our own honor to have the correct number of cards in our control hands.

It only came up because I was playing Som'er and wanted to drain his hand via "a Gremlin's Luck". We referenced the rules, couldn't come up with a definitive answer, and flipped for it. He won the flip, so for that game we determined that it was okay to keep this information from each other. He's a cool guy and I didn't have a problem with this, because in my reading of the rules he is technically correct, however I feel that this runs contrary to the spirit of the game. Any answer would definitely help!

[Joel]

I've always given an answer when asked that question (and a correct one too!), and never had a problem if I asked an opponent the same question.

Comes under rule 1: don't be "that guy"

[Cadilon]

This is discussed in THIS thread, with no real resolution.

Not much help, but it is something.

[Sliver Chocobo]

I've gone yes

[Golden]

The statement that it is good sportsmanship was made by a Rules Marshall, so I'd go with they should tell you. If they choose not to and state that good sportsmanship is not a rule, I wouldn't even finish the game with them.

[psychocamel]

I'd be very suspicious of someone trying to hide the number of cards they have...

[CannonFodder]

I always tell if asked. Also I mention if I have the option of a trigger. Its just good sportsmanship. Otherwise you need to double check every move all the time. Just makes the game more enjoyable.

[Grimm Riggins]

Don't get me wrong, my opponent is a friend and not someone trying to abuse a rules loophole. We just honestly couldn't resolve the problem and figured if it wasn't meant to be kept secret it would say so. We're both longtime warmachine players and accustomed to competitive play and very explicit rules. Wyrd has done well to address the "foggy" rules of the first version of the rulebook, but it can still be difficult to figure some things out. I suppose if there's no official ruling I'll just have to put up with it for the time being. It's not like I couldn't see his hand at the time (we were using little card holder-uppers), it was more rhetorical than practical. What I'd be more concerned about would be "that guy" who acts belligerent about it and flat-out refuses to show me his hand. I'm sure we can work it out between the two of us.

[Pierowmaniac]

To be honest I don't think you would find any other play group around that hides there control hand.

So just something to bear in mind if you both decide to extend out to find other players or decide to go to any organised event or tournaments.

[Paddywhack]

How else could you use Equalize Fate with Mr. Tannen if you did not know how many cards your opponent held? I would never try to hide it and as you said could lead to some possible abuses/cheating.

[brdparker]

Might not be a known thing in the miniatures community specifically, but with few exceptions, cards games are open to the number of cards in players' hands, and that is so common that it normally does not need to be stated, as the terms "discard" and "draw" do not normally have to be defined.

I have come across games where it is hidden, but in that, they make a special point to say so, understanding that it's a rare case.

[*Jack*]

if asked, I'd always say what I had, even if it was of great benefit to the opponent. As mentionned somewhere, its public knowledge what you start with, and its public knowledge everytime you use one, so in the worst possible case scenario, if someone refused, I'd make a big thing of loudly counting down everytime they use a card.

On a similar sporting note, but not related, it really bugs me when you ask someone what the damage will be if they win the duel, and they reply with "oh, 1/2/4." then when you decide not to cheat, and let them win, they declare triggers - Really annoying with guild, now doing 3/4/6 damage -.-

[Ausplosions]

You should know your opponents triggers.

And critical strike for guild is quite common.

[morpsele]

Everything written down on the character card is public knowledge. And i always declare before hand that i might have a trigger.

For my hand, I always let them know how many card i have. I always played like that and it's what you do in Trading card game.

[Hateful Darkblack]

It's certainly something that can be easily computed from public knowledge. Each time you draw or or discard or play a card, it's public knowledge, and your starting number is public knowledge.

Honestly, if someone refused to tell me how many cards they had, I'd be confused and annoyed and probably avoid playing with them in the future.

[dgraz]

I always tell if asked. Also I mention if I have the option of a trigger. Its just good sportsmanship. Otherwise you need to double check every move all the time. Just makes the game more enjoyable.

Me too.

You should know your opponents triggers.

A general or vague idea yes. To expect an opponent to know every trigger for every model is ludicrous with the number of models available - especially since you have just chosen your faction and crew. I also wouldn't want to slow down the game so much because at every duel I or my opponent need to see the other's cards.

If you sent me your crew selection the day before, that would be another story.

[Mister_Q]

Technically you should be declaring triggers before moving on to damage flips, etc (RM, p.28). I usually do it when I flip the attack card: "my total is currently 15 with a critical strike", etc. Same when an opponent asks what damage I'll be doing: "1/3/5, but +1 for the critical". It's easy enough and makes things clear.

It annoys me too when I let an attack through and suddenly I'm hit with extra damage or a further attack from a trigger that wasn't mentioned during the initial duel. I usually let it go once or twice and then ask my opponent politely that they declare triggers earlier. If they keep doing it then a "sorry but you didn't declare that trigger" usually gets the point across.

[dgraz]

Technically you should be declaring triggers before moving on to damage flips, etc (RM, p.28).

While this is true, some models have multiple possible triggers. I won't declare my trigger until the attack duel is final, but I will state what possible triggers I have at the moment, and I will generally announce that I have other triggers that I might be able to cheat in.

[Q'iq'el]

While this is true, some models have multiple possible triggers. I won't declare my trigger until the attack duel is final, but I will state what possible triggers I have at the moment, and I will generally announce that I have other triggers that I might be able to cheat in.

I don't believe this is legal or the right order.

First, you declare triggers after you cheat/soulstone. Up to that point you don't have to say anything and if you do it is pure courtesy.

After that, however, not only you have to declare the one trigger you've selected (declaring implies you have to give the name of the trigger), but you do it after you establish your total, not "before the damage" as it was stated in the earlier post. That means in some cases (Magic Duels) the opponent gets to counter your Trigger, if possible (depends on whether the trigger depends on the success of the Duel or not) and the information about what Trigger you are going to use becomes very relevant to him.

I've just realized I might have misread the meaning of "after the attack duel is final" to mean after the entire duel is finalized, rather than after the attack flip is over. If the later is the case please disregard the above.

Edited October 4, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[NeuroFire]

I've been asked several times about the number cards in my hand. I've always either just held it up in a fan for inspection, or responded if my cards were on the table instead of physically in my hand. Since it is a hand of cards that can be easily glanced at and counted while playing (if held in a traditional manner) it hadn't really occurred to me to try "hiding" how many cards I was holding.

[Kadeton]

I've just realized I might have misread the meaning of "after the attack duel is final" to mean after the entire duel is finalized' date=' rather than after the attack flip is over. If the later is the case please disregard the above.[/quote']

Yeah, I think that's what he was going for.

In general, I will make the starting flip and indicate the current duel total and any potential triggers based on the available suits (out of courtesy, before the opponent decides whether or not to Cheat). Then, Cheat and/or Soulstone the flip and declare the final duel total and triggers.

Oh, and I wouldn't ever conceal the number of cards in hand, nor would I allow my opponent to.

[dgraz]

I've just realized I might have misread the meaning of "after the attack duel is final" to mean after the entire duel is finalized' date=' rather than after the attack flip is over. If the later is the case please disregard the above.[/quote']

Disregarded

I do it pretty much as Kadeton describes. I have been known to grouse a little if my opponent doesn't offer me the same courtesy.

[stochastic]

The problem about withholding information is that it most commonly will annoy the opponent, and he will begin playing the devil's lawyer. This means that every time his opponent does anything questionable, it will be drawn to debate.

Remember: "If a solution cannot be agreed upon, each player should flip a card from his or her fate deck. The player with the highest card determines the outcome."

And remember that there is a certain stage of combat where you have to declare triggers, and if it is not announced, it is too late. Always remember to announce value and suit as well

You should be able to count your opponents hand size, since there is a maximum hand size, in each round. However you may not look through any players discard piles doing the game.

I would without doubt never play with that person again, since I believe that if he/she is withholding information, he/she is prolly cheating, or hiding something sinister.

Edited October 4, 2012 by stochastic

[Golden]

Declaring triggers is actually the last thing that happens before moving to the damage flip. And in casual games my circle never does this, we tend to notify the opponent of possible triggers when we flip the suit. Except for our local henchman, who tends to dance around or celebrate in some exaggerated fashion.

[Aramoro]

The number of cards in your hand is a knowable fact so there's no good reason to ever withhold that information from your opponent. If you opponent is refusing to tell you simply record every card they draw/flip/discard etc meticulousness detail your opponents every action refuse any take backs etc. They've indicated that's how they want to play the game so go for it.