Tactica Seamus - MK2

[Rathnard]

Well the last thread is somewhat obsolete and while pullmyfinger has a great article on Seamus, so I thought it was time to start a new one. Basically I thought this could be a centralised location to generate some discussion and feedback on all things Seamus, whether your a new player or veteran.

Personally I haven't yet played Seamus (shameful, I know!) but a few months back I promised I would, so I'm hoping this will encourage me to pull them out and start playing him with some regularity.

I'll also see if I can quote some of the more useful feedback on these initial posts, so that people don't have to trawl through the thread.

---------- Post added at 09:00 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 AM ----------

So to get things started - what do people think of the new Book 4 minions as options for Seamus? Any particular crews or combos that seem particularly useful?

Personally, I'm thinking Chiakai is going to be the hidden Gem. She's generally a very decent support-style minion but the key is Purity (I think that's what it's called), which strips non-sacrifice effects off your own models. I'm thinking amongst other things, this will be a great counter to the much-loathed Guild Watcher, since you can use it to negate it's ability to remove terrifying from Avatar Seamus.

[Mister Shine]

Im looking forward to Yin's Anathema hand out and Seamus' Face of Death for a big ol unignorable 4" terrifying effect

[Mach_5]

Yin's abilities that reduce enemy Wp are also very nice when building a crew around terrifying/anathema.

Also, don't forget the lowly Canine Remains who have a melee trigger to hand out -2Wp until the end of the game!

[DeleteAccount]

I wouldn't discount Izamu either, gives a huge beatstick factor that appreciates quite a bit that belles send critters his way to beat the hell out off. Hell, even Toshiro is worth considering simply because I already use punks with Seamus and with toshiro giving them more mobility along with making humble belles very good at hitting plus being a secondary summoner seems like a decent plan. The humble ashigaru can also be a good choice to keep stuff off of Seamus to let him keep doing his ranged game before he avatars.

[Math Mathonwy]

Ah, a new Seamus tactica - now in retina-searing pink!

[Huang Da Wei]

There is an old Chinese proverb... 'Seamus discussion is good while pink is aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh'

[Omenbringer]

Really is to bad the meat of that thread has been lost, it was a very good start. I wonder if the web powers at Wyrd could recover the post (Where is that Goblyn13 guy)?

[osoi]

I think you are right Rath Chiaki will be the hidden gem of the book for Seamus.

HAving written most of the groundwork for the PMF article we can use that as a basis if you want to keep building on.

I really like the duo of Hanged and an Onryo with him

[DarcXON]

I think you are right Rath Chiaki will be the hidden gem of the book for Seamus.

HAving written most of the groundwork for the PMF article we can use that as a basis if you want to keep building on.

I really like the duo of Hanged and an Onryo with him

As far as my experience with him goes, he loves a variety of models in his crew. I like that Seamus is not hurt by crew building decisions unlike the other Resser masters. Maybe McMourning, but I don't play him regularly enough.

[D-A-C]

I'd love to contribute to a new (and improved!) Seamus Tactica, even though I've been playing him for less than two months, and am not the most competitive of players (I prefer stories, themes and fluff).

Anyway, with that in mind, I think the best way to start any new Tactica would be to narrow down which models are best used in conjunction with Seamus as your master. So far based on my own experiences and from what I have read online, any Seamus player should basically choose from these models when constructing a crew.

This is not a tactica on these models and there uses, more the first steps in deciding which models are available for selection when building a Seamus crew. Hopefully better minds will go into more depth about each models uses, or you can just head over to the Malifaux wiki. Anyway:

MASTER

Seamus (Obviously) -Just keep in mind that he has a low starting ss cache of just 2. So you pretty much need to save around 3-4 soul stones that you would normally spend on his crew in order to amend this.

Also, he is not a natural 'resser' in the sense that unlike any of the other big three (McMourning, Nico and Kirai) he doesn't do a whole lot of summoning as he needs really high crows to pull it off. So if your into creating lots of models Seamus is definately not your chosen Master. Instead think of him as more of a finesse or situational summoner.

HENCHMEN

Molly - If playing bigger games Molly seems like an auto include for many people, and she is also a thematic choice as she is tied to Seamus in the fluff and is also a Belle and so takes advantage of Seamus' buffs. I haven't played her yet, so cannot comment, but I read that she can ressurect Madame Sybelle??? If this is true that is incredibly useful as Seamus cannot as Madame is Unique. However, that aside she still has a number of abilities that work well with Seamus and his Rotten Belles.

TOTEMS

Copycat Killer - Thematic for Seamus crews, and somewhat useful thanks to its carrying another handcannon (50. Flintlock). I doubt it is a really competitive choice, in fact I know it isn't, but that isn't to say it cannot be useful at times. Also it is worth noting that it is a mandatory choice if you ever want to take Seamus' personal scheme as CCK needs to kill a model costing 7ss or more in order to gain the VP.

Graveyard Spirit -The most commonly chosen Totem for Seamus crews. With the ability to add 2 Armour to any model it is attached to, use that models spells and being unable to be sperately targeted, this totem basically turns one model (in an already very survivable crew) into a tank. Its must commonly taken on Madame Sybelle or Hanged as it makes these models really resilient for a mere 1ss. So in a sense you spend 1ss to protect your 6 or 8ss investment.

AVATAR

Avatar of Dread - I'm still pretty new to the game, but one thing I realised early is that not all Avatars are necessarily better than the Masters that they replace. However, Seamus has been blessed with an Avatar that is great and has very few disadvantaged after its activation. The only thing I can really think of in fact is that Seamus loses access to any reliable ranged attacks (he loses his 50. Flintlock), and also, if you need to reach certain models to deliver messages or assassinate them it can be annoying as they tend to run away from his Terrifying 14.

MINIONS

Rotten Belles - The Bread and butter Minion for Seamus. They are arguably one of the best minions in the game for their cost. They don't hit very hard at all, but they are amazingly good at manipulating enemy crews movements and moving very fast towards any objectives themselves.

Madame Sybelle - Sybelle is also a Belle and so syncs up with all of Seamus buffs to Belles, and also possess a few of her own. Basically, with her in a Seamus crew, they gain extra movement shenanigens and can literally slingshot Rotten Belles all around the board. She does pretty decent damage in a crew that lacks offensive punch, and her 12" range Shriek attack is really underrated.

Dead Doxy - Another Belle model introduced for Seamus. I have a little trouble understanding how to use them effectively, but Seamus can summon these girls and reading on online, they can prove to be very useful.

Caninine Remains - Sure they don't look like much on paper, but for 2ss these models are welcome in almost any ressers crew. They have a number of quite useful abilities, actually lose their insignificant status when there is more than 1 of them, and have a couple of companion tricks. Also, and why I love them, is they drop corpse counters, so Seamus can turn their 2ss into 4ss Rotten Belles or even 5ss Dead Doxies

Crooked Men - I actually read a story where Seamus was working with some Crooked Men, so that makes these a fluff choice in my book. Also thanks to the Belles ability to manipulate enemy model movement they sync great with a Seamus list. They are also have decent survivability and add some much needed offensive oomph to Seamus crews.

Bete Noir - If she was ever altered so that she became a Belle I think I would wet myself. That aside, being a Lady, she works thematically with Seamus. That aside, she hits like a ton of bricks and more than justifies her 9ss cost as she is invincible if you have the right cards and has amazing offensive abilities. The only downside is she is useless when facing spirit of contruct armies, which in fact, reflects Seamus as well as he doesn't particularly like things that are immune to WP duels.

Hanged - I haven't used these myself but people rave about their usefulness with Seamus. I'm not sure looking at them, that they are necessarily worth their 8ss cost + 1ss for Graveyard Spirit (which is the standard competitive combo). However I can see how they sync up with Seamus as they manipulate enemy Wp and also have a really nice spell that halves the enemies number of wounds, and means they cannot heal for the rest of the game ... period! I may have to look into these a bit more now that I think about it lol.

Onryo - For me these are a fluffy choice as Seamus loves the ladies, and who is to say they weren't a Geisha at the establishment of ill repute that Seamus payed a visit too? The horrors they constantly revist could be reliving the night Seamus came into their lives. Anyway, I love these models, they have a decent ranged attack, have some nice defensive buffs, but more importantly they have an ability which allows models normally immune to Wp duels, to be effected by them which is great for Seamus and his Terrifying ability.

Anyway, this was just a conversation starter, written hastily whilst at work, so forgive any errors. But feel free to use it as a simple beginners template for simple beginners like me . If anyone would like to contribute to, or add, or subtract models from the list, or maybe even say a little more about each of the choices (my experience is limited), then maybe this could be a great start to an iin depth Seamus tactica.

Edited September 24, 2012 by D-A-C

[Gruesome]

It seems like a common mistake for people to not notice that grave spirit grants armor to undead.

[morpsele]

I have not read the entire thing but in the Grave spirit part you say that you can link it to seamus to give him the +2 armor but it's not true. You can only link it to undead for that effect.

[Pierowmaniac]

I'd love to contribute to a new (and improved!) Seamus Tactica, even though I've been playing him for less than two months, and am not the most competitive of players (I prefer stories, themes and fluff).

Anyway, with that in mind, I think the best way to start any new Tactica would be to narrow down which models are best used in conjunction with Seamus as your master. So far based on my own experiences and from what I have read online, any Seamus player should basically choose from these models when constructing a crew.

This is not a tactica on these models and there uses, more the first steps in deciding which models are available for selection when building a Seamus crew. Hopefully better minds will go into more depth about each models uses, or you can just head over to the Malifaux wiki. Anyway:

MASTER

Seamus ... obviously

A lot to write here and I'm sure plenty more people have better experience than any of us but if no one fancies writing anything up, I'll start to put finger to keyboard sometime this week.

HENCHMEN

Molly - If playing bigger games Molly seems like an auto include for many people, and she is also a thematic choice as she is tied to Seamus in the fluff and is also a Belle and so takes advantage of Seamus' buffs. I haven't played her yet, so cannot comment, but I read that she can ressurect Madame Sybelle??? If this is true that is incredibly useful as Seamus cannot as Madame is Unique. However, that aside she still has a number of abilities that work well with Seamus and his Rotten Belles.

Molly off the top of my head can bring the following to a Seamus crew:

Summon Belles (including Sybelle), Horrors on 30mm base or Necrotic Machine

:-fate Debuff on enemies attack and defence flips

Movement buffs for the whole crew.

She's also very hard to actually kill and a great target for 'Bodyguard'

TOTEMS

Copycat Killer - Thematic for Seamus crews, and somewhat useful thanks to its carrying another handcannon (50. Flintlock). I doubt it is a really competitive choice, in fact I know it isn't, but that isn't to say it cannot be useful at times. Also it is worth noting that it is a mandatory choice if you ever want to take Seamus' personal scheme as CCK needs to kill a model costing 7ss or more in order to gain the VP.

Graveyard Spirit -The most commonly chosen Totem for Seamus crews. With the ability to add 2 Armour to any model it is attached to, use that models spells and being unable to be sperately targeted, this totem basically turns one model (in an already very survivable crew) into a tank. Its must commonly taken on Madame Sybelle or Hanged, but it can be useful to attach it to Seamus if you are playing defensive schemes like bodyguard.

Note on the Grave Spirit.

He doesn't give Seamus the Armour bonus, because Seamus isn't undead.

Ideally he goes with Molly for Bodyguard. He is almost essential for a Molly crew using a Rogue Necromancy.

AVATAR

Avatar of Dread - I'm still pretty new to the game, but one thing I realised early is that not all Avatars are necessarily better than the Masters that they replace. However, Seamus has been blessed with an Avatar that is great and has very few disadvantaged after its activation. The only thing I can really think of in fact is that Seamus loses access to any reliable ranged attacks (he loses his 50. Flintlock), and also, if you need to reach certain models to deliver messages or assassinate them it can be annoying as they tend to run away from his Terrifying 14.

MINIONS

Rotten Belles - The Bread and butter Minion for Seamus. They are arguably one of the best minions in the game for their cost. They don't hit very hard at all, but they are amazingly good at manipulating enemy crews movements and moving very fast towards any objectives themselves.

I wouldn't say the Belles are fast in themselves, but they can get nippy with buffs from Seamus and Molly.

Madame Sybelle - Sybelle is also a Belle and so syncs up with all of Seamus buffs to Belles, and also possess a few of her own. Basically, with her in a Seamus crew, they gain extra movement shenanigens and can literally slingshot Rotten Belles all around the board. She does pretty decent damage in a crew that lacks offensive punch, and her 12" range Shriek attack is really underrated.

The slingshot however needs high mask so you can't forward plan on it, unless you have the high mask in hand and don't need it for something else. She also brings the Companion alpha strike option to the crew and she is fairly hard to take down having regeneration. She's another good option for the Grave spirit to link to and give the Armour bonus.

Dead Doxy - Another Belle model introduced for Seamus. I have a little trouble understanding how to use them effectively, but Seamus can summon these girls and reading on online, they can prove to be very useful.

Caninine Remains - Sure they don't look like much on paper, but for 2ss these models are welcome in almost any ressers crew. They have a number of quite useful abilities, actually lose their insignificant status when there is more than 1 of them, and have a couple of companion tricks. Also, and why I love them, is they drop corpse counters, so Seamus can turn their 2ss into 4ss Rotten Belles or even 5ss Dead Doxies

Im not convinced the 2SS discount for killing the dogs and raising Belles is worth Seamus's first turn. but the dogs certainly do look handy.

Crooked Men - I actually read a story where Seamus was working with some Crooked Men, so that makes these a fluff choice in my book. Also thanks to the Belles ability to manipulate enemy model movement they sync great with a Seamus list. They are also have decent survivability and add some much needed offensive oomph to Seamus crews.

Bete Noir - If she was ever altered so that she became a Belle I think I would wet myself. That aside, being a Lady, she works thematically with Seamus. That aside, she hits like a ton of bricks and more than justifies her 9ss cost as she is invincible if you have the right cards and has amazing offensive abilities. The only downside is she is useless when facing spirit of contruct armies, which in fact, reflects Seamus as well as he doesn't particularly like things that are immune to WP duels.

Hanged - I haven't used these myself but people rave about their usefulness with Seamus. I'm not sure looking at them, that they are necessarily worth their 8ss cost + 1ss for Graveyard Spirit (which is the standard competitive combo). However I can see how they sync up with Seamus as they manipulate enemy Wp and also have a really nice spell that halves the enemies number of wounds, and means they cannot heal for the rest of the game ... period! I may have to look into these a bit more now that I think about it lol.

Onryo - For me these are a fluffy choice as Seamus loves the ladies, and who is to say they weren't a Geisha at the establishment of ill repute that Seamus payed a visit too? The horrors they constantly revist could be reliving the night Seamus came into their lives. Anyway, I love these models, they have a decent ranged attack, have some nice defensive buffs, but more importantly they have an ability which allows models normally immune to Wp duels, to be effected by them which is great for Seamus and his Terrifying ability.

Anyway, this was just a conversation starter, written hastily whilst at work, so forgive any errors. But feel free to use it as a simple beginners template for simple beginners like me . If anyone would like to contribute to, or add, or subtract models from the list, or maybe even say a little more about each of the choices (my experience is limited), then maybe this could be a great start to an iin depth Seamus tactica.

I've also ran out of time, but Ill try and write more another day

[D-A-C]

It seems like a common mistake for people to not notice that grave spirit grants armor to undead.

I have not read the entire thing but in the Grave spirit part you say that you can link it to seamus to give him the +2 armor but it's not true. You can only link it to undead for that effect.

Well spotted, my mistake, I have yet to actually use Graveyard Spirit (I use CCK for theme + fun). So I'll take out that part. Like I said, I have been playing for all of 6 weeks lol so I'm not an expert, I was just getting the ball rolling.

Edit

Also don't forget, my goal with the post was to simply narrow down model selection for people. So if I have missed any useful models or have added ones you think don't sync well, feel free to amend it. The only one I could think of as being possibly overlooked in Dead Rider, but for 10ss I don't see how he would be a solid investment for Seamus as he is quite hampered as he has to sacrifice a large crew in order to build up a ss cache as he starts with a measly two.

Anyway, I think once we have established that things like Flesh Constructs or Guild Autopsies don't work with Seamus crews then more knowledgable players can fill in the details.

Edited September 24, 2012 by D-A-C

[Elohel]

Dead Doxies are good for 3 reasons.

1) Speed: The DDs (double Ds lol - sorry) move faster than anything else in your normal list. With Belles of the Ball, they can motor off "towards" an objective provided it is along a vector that will move them towards their victim of inviting approach.

2) Sybelle Slingshot: When the DDs die, they are slow to die, and one action that they can take allows them to switch places with a friendly Belle within 12 (i think). DDs are belles, and are pretty resilient, which means when they are killed, their killers are usually out of actions. In teleports an angry Sybelle that can then flurry and wail on them.

3) SEDUCTION: This spell can break an opponent. Especially if you are fielding Molly, because she can cast it for the DD, and cheat, and use soul stones. If you are blowing a high cheat card + soul stone to do so, chances are good that your opponent wont resist it. If you manage to hit the enemy master with hit, your target is taking negative 2 flips on all resist and defensive flips for the rest of the turn. This means no cheating or soul stones. You can then proceed to rape the target. This also makes Avatar Seamus that much scarier.

[Odin1981]

A master can still soulstone but cannot cheat if it is under the effects of a minus. Unless of course they changed that in a recent errata.

[DeleteAccount]

Why the hell would Molly bother doing that when her Terrible Secret spell has a very similar effect without being plagued by a horrible 4" range and a tome restriction? If you want speed, a flok of night terrors will serve you a lot better and though the sibelle slingshot has it's merit, it's also nuking 5 wounds out of Sibelle off the bat. Dead Doxies are interestingish summon pieces for Seamus and for Molly supposing Sibelle ain't in play, and for those 2, the dead doxie is the best objective grabber they can summon, but she isn't exactly that amazing at it and I'd never field one from the start.

[CRC]

Because you want the double penalty, or the penalty to Resist?

Though, to be honest, I think the bigger restriction is having to cast Whispered Secret first....

[Gruesome]

Not looking to derail, but if Doxies were 4 points, I would still usually favor a rotten belle over them in most lists.

[D-A-C]

Not looking to derail, but if Doxies were 4 points, I would still usually favor a rotten belle over them in most lists.

I disagree. If they were 4ss I would always take x2 Rotten Belles and x1 Dead Doxy to start any Seamus list.

It the fact your paying extra for a model that doesn't do much of anything that a normal Rotten Belle couldn't do just as good. After starting the thread on the subject, and listening to peoples responses they seem to be good if you get the right cards, hence 4ss would be more than a fair price, 5 is too much to ever include them off the bat IMO.

But I bought a pack so I can summon them from time to time and for thematic purposes (plus the models are great).

[Elohel]

Cast Whispered Secrets on the first turn.

Channel Seduction through Necrotic Machine until you cast Whispered Secrets again or Molly casts seduction on her own.

I dont see why its a stupid idea? I've done it before.

The reason why Seduction is better than Terrible Secrets is because it affects resist and wp flips. Which synergize with Avatar Seamus.

[Cats Laughing]

In before the "but, but, immune to influence" ... already screws with Seamus, Molly, Doxies and Rotten Belles, and much of the WP resist based attacks/spells faction ...

Seduction through Molly or Totem (for soulstone usage) could be a way to maximize the rest of your crew's spell effects on targeted models. Lure and the resulting slap with an umbrella works better when the target can't cheat the resist flip nor the resulting defense flip. Philosophy of Uncertainty works so much better when the target can't cheat their resist flip and takes the worst card of their 3 flipped cards.

Yes, this doesn't help against I2I, but short of Anathema, Onryo and basic Fist to Face, a lot (iirc) of the Resser abilities are hurt by I2I.

[DeleteAccount]

Resist does not equal morale duels, it helps Seamus in nothing except for making his paralize spell go in easier, and chances are the stone you blow casting Seducction could have been better used on said paralize. Aside from that, it just seems so resource intensive for what you get. Also, if you are casting seduction, 4" away from a necrotich machine, why not go full throtle and just nuke a model with Philosophy of Uncertainty? Gets you a dead model and no need any high tome to get it out.

[Gruesome]

I am all for people discovering ways to make the Doxies perform better for me. I like the models and still summon them... Basically "just because". (Sometimes "just because" my belles are alive and I do not want to proxy a 4th )

But, I have done and tried whats been mentioned so far since I got them and they still have never felt worth it to me.

I have had better moments with Carrion Effigy(!!) than dead doxies.

It could be that the crews I face are hard hitting as compared to others, so their vaunted "tarpitting" basically consists of getting blown off the board in an activation and me deciding which of my unblemished models I want to take away half its wounds from.

The seduction range is so irritating.

[D-A-C]

When choosing Schemes for Seamus which ones would you rate as easiest to hardest?

I haven't tried them all but so far I'd say:

Bodyguard = Easy: I only play small 20-25ss games, so if Seamus dies then its an uphill struggle anyway, so keeping him alive is already part of the plan. Its not necessarily easy in the sense that he is easy to keep alive (although he is pretty tough), its more that I feel you don't have to do anything you normally wouldn't do to achieve this scheme.

Frame For Murder = Moderate: This is actually not too bad, I just make Sybelle the recipient and my opponent is forced to take her out with something other than a nasty master (Lady Justice is common in my gaming group). This can significantly increase her survivability as it means she is partly immune to a high damage model. The only problem is, if you announce it, obviously it is considerably hard to force your opponent to kill you with his Master willingly.

Grudge = Moderate: Again Sybelle for the win. Select an enemy minion (preferably a relatively weak one) and either get it into melee OR Shriek. Do not forget Shriek!

My Little Friend (Personal) = Very Hard: Ugh, getting CCK to reliably take out a SS7+ model OR a Master or Henchmen is a pain, and is really difficult IMO. It is lots of fun though lol.

Those are the only ones I've tried with Seamus so far. Anyone else want toadd their ideas, and feel free to respond to my own evaluations if you disagree (or agree ) with them.