Are coryphee really worth it?

[Barnaberible]

Ok, so I hardly ever see a collette list that dosent contain coryphee, but are they really worth the cost? If they are so good then why are they never in lists for other masters and for 14 ss they are quite a chunk in a 35 ss list.

I know they have synergy with colletteand particularly cassie but hey if cassie and a duet are so good for 23ss then why aren't they appearing in ramos lists who is notorisly slow.

For the 23 Ss that the trio cost between them there are so many other options for the showgirls, so why so much love for them?

Any thoughts?

[merlinman]

well the duet can use soulstones when they use their 0 action and cassy can when hired by Colette. So duet might hog some SS away from ramos? i never thought about it but i might try to see how a list like that would go

[Mike3838]

The Coryphee duet is one of the best models in the game, that much is pretty undisputed.

I think the reasons you don't see them in every other crew are

A) Thematic. People who want to play Ramos are fans of Steampunk and mechanical spiders. If they wanted showgirls they'd probably just start with Colette. Despite it sometimes not being optimal, the desire for your crew to have a theme is strong

Some of the Coryphee's best abilities cone out of synergy with other showgirls. That's not to say they're not powerful in other crews, but they're at their best with Colette.

Mike

[Q'iq'el]

First of all, they appear in other masters' lists quite often. One of the best Arcanist minion to take for almost every master (I suppose Tina may be the exception here, but I don't know her well enough).

The major reason why they are so good is the combination of speed and resilience. They are very hard to kill and so fast, that they can complete some Schemes and Strategies within 2-3 turns with no opposition (unless the opponent dedicates considerable chunk of his forces to stopping them, but that's to their crew's advantage too).

Their damage output isn't as high as some other expensive models, but in Malifaux mobility and resilience are worth more than pure damage output.

The only reasons not to take them are either fluff (don't fit your master's theme) or relative power level (don't want to discourage newbies).

[pixelante]

Well if your gonna take the Coryphee you want to take Cassandra because the synergy is great. In order to use Cassandra to her fullest potential you need Colette.

[merlinman]

Actions speak loader than words, unless your beating the crap out of a mime of course

is it supposed to be Louder or loader? and mime or mine? lol sorry if off topic

[Barnaberible]

Well if your gonna take the Coryphee you want to take Cassandra because the synergy is great. In order to use Cassandra to her fullest potential you need Colette.

That's what I would have thought, so if coryphee are one of the best models in the game then you need a 23 ss investment for cassie too.

So are we saying that all collette lists should include coryphee and cassie? (as they are great at everything)

Or, is there some love for replacing that massive outlay with something else, there are people who would argue that von schill is the best model in the game (for 1 ss more than cassie) and you could get a good kaeris build in for 23 ss

Cassie does lose a bit of effect when taken out of a colette crew (use ss and understudy would be less effective) but if they are that good then it's not much of a handicap surely (or is it, I've never tried)

Personally I always take the duet but are there any players out there who don't?

[edonil]

I wouldn't say that the Coryphee and Cassandra have to be together. If you're going to bring Cassandra, yeah, you'll want the Coryphee. But the Coryphee certainly don't need Cassie. If you're running Colette then absolutely bring those 23 points, but the Coryphee will work fine at their role of crazy distraction/tank/objective grabber without Cassie.

[Sholto]

With both the Duet and Cassandra being vulnerable to sustained attack, having a Master around who can swap them out of trouble with ease, and do it twice in a Turn (with Reactivate), is priceless. This synergy is one of the big reasons why those two do not show up in other Master's crews.

But while they are both great models, I think any Colette player should drop them from their crews now and then to try out other models (like Von Schill, Kaeris, Killjoy etc) and see how this changes how the Showgirls play. Not only does it stop the crew feeling stale, but it can help you play the basic Showgirls crew better, having seen how the models function without all the very deep synergy they have when they are all together.

[LastDinosaur]

Talking about your local meta?

The Coryphée works fine with Rasputina. Ramos aswell. Can't speak of Marcus, but don't see why not, as long as you don't give up on beast minions entirely with him.

As a December player I wouldn't bother with Cassandra though, massive investment and our core is already elitist enough, really need some cheaper activations if you take the Coryphée.

Note that strategy and board matters alot when deciding a list for December, Rasputinas inherent problem is her speed, but she doesn't always need it, and certainly not always in the amounts that the Coryphée brings.

[merlinman]

Talking about your local meta?

Can't speak of Marcus, but don't see why not, as long as you don't give up on beast minions entirely with him.

Marcus can take a raptor and give the duet the beast characteristic for the rest of the game, and then Marcus can give it reactivate

[Marcalla]

Personally I think the reason we don't see the Coryphee in other crews as often is the amount of synergy that is inherent within the Archansits. The archanists, seem to be alot more synergistic within their specific crews when compared to other faction crews.

That being said the Coryphee is one of the best minions in the game with +flips to basically everything they do (minus spellcasting) and the ability to use soulstones it is a monster of a minion. It does suffer from a lower damage track but since you have paired weapons you are almost always at a neutral or a positive flip when attacking. It has a naturally high defense and can pass through other models when moving.

Ohh yeah, and did I mention it has the ability to use Soulstones? That alone puts it above almost all minions and on par with many of the masters/henchmen in the game. If it is allowed to activate before other models that threaten it and you have soulstones to spare it is nearly unbeatable. This ability alone sets it apart from other minions.

Again its the synergy that is the big point in putting it in other crews as it gains truly epic heights when coupled with the rest of Colette's crew. Cassandra is Good but better when taken with Colette as she also gains use soulstones.

Now do you need to take that 14 or 23 point investment no, but then you don't need to take the 14 point twins in Neverborn crews either but you tend to see them a whole lot.

[Athan Allgood]

This really speaks to one of the Arcanists biggest sticky point (flaws?): Each master is very independent in their play style, and have very limited synergy with models that fall outside their specific style.

VERY generally (plenty of arguments can be made against, I know):

Ramos: Works best with loads of Constructs.

Colette: Needs showgirls to be most effective.

Marcus: Beasts or bust.

Rasputina: Requires frozen heart minions to make her range effective.

As such, it is rare to see much crossover between models... unless there is a Beast Showgirl Frozen Heart construct out there I dont know about.

Its also why Arcanists dont have that one "killer" auto-include fig that other factions seem to have.

However, in my limited experience, the Coryphee twins are amongst the most mobile, defensive, and tricky pieces available to us. I have run her with Raspy for some movement/ objective grabber action and she was very effective.

But, yeah, she's expensive. It is all dependent on what you need vs. what you have. In a 25 point game for almost any master, no, she's probably not the best bet. However, in a 35 or 40 point game where you want to ensure a hard to kill presence in your opponent's back field, she is wonderful.

Like anything else, however, it's only in using a model that their potential is proven. Proxy em up and give them a whirl.

[nix]

Personally I always take the duet but are there any players out there who don't?

I rarely take the Coryphee in my lists. Personally, I cannot get them to do what I want very well and they are typically focused on and die too quickly for my liking. My Colette lists are heavily slated to Performers and Cassandra, with Angelica from time to time.

I think its a matter of taste. For me, the Coryphee have almost never returned the investment in points.

[sinistercats]

My Colette lists are heavily slated to Performers and Cassandra, with Angelica from time to time.

And having tried and mostly failed to use this style of list I'd love to hear more about how you make that work. Adding up the effective ranges of everything it seems like that crew needs to stay about 8-12" away for maximum effectiveness. Not all enemy crews allow that.

[bigwarbosss]

I play Collette and have never taken the Coryphee. I am not saying the Coryphee are not worth it, just to expensive for my taste at 14 pts.

[Logic512]

Ramos, Alyce, Coryphee, Toolkit, and some individual spiders is something I've been considering for a while. You can reactivate the Coryphee and usually get it to objectives and then out of danger with 6AP, 6(0) actions, bunches of hit-and-run triggers. Then give it some healing next turn from any of three sources and do it all again. It's very "all eggs, one basket" but I think it could be fun.

[nix]

And having tried and mostly failed to use this style of list I'd love to hear more about how you make that work. Adding up the effective ranges of everything it seems like that crew needs to stay about 8-12" away for maximum effectiveness. Not all enemy crews allow that.

Your not the first to ask for this. I will try and work up a battle report to get posted soon. I think I will be getting in a couple Showgirl/Colette games this week so will aim to remember and post one of those.

[Grantt]

I find that Coryphee and Cassandra dominate most games. Between them, they have an 18' threat zone that tends to dissuade most enemies from approaching, which makes dedicated kill objectives reasonably easy to accomplish.

However, I have been running lists without Coryphee (and also Cassandra) because once your opponent realises how dangerous a paired Coryphee is, they tend to destroy them early on. Losing 14 ss worth of minion in the early game is a real hit.

Plus, the performers are really useful minions and you tend to not use them when you have the Triple C Threat. I've also found Kaeris, Sue and the Soulstone Miner adds a lot of useful tricks. Oh, and Gunsmiths, of course.

[ukrocky]

Talking about your local meta?

The Coryphée works fine with Rasputina. Ramos aswell. Can't speak of Marcus, but don't see why not, as long as you don't give up on beast minions entirely with him.

Meh, Marcus can happily run a list with no beasts in at all and it wouldn't effect him one bit.

[Adran]

Marcus can take a raptor and give the duet the beast characteristic for the rest of the game, and then Marcus can give it reactivate

Just saying that Alpha only works on enemy beasts, so you can't cast it on your own to reactivate them.

[LastDinosaur]

Meh, Marcus can happily run a list with no beasts in at all and it wouldn't effect him one bit.

Aside from losing out on Companion, his defensive trigger and the occasional Howl bonus.. I assumed that since those are on his card one might as well try to take advantage of them by at least picking a single beast, but hell what do I know about Marcus, nothing.

[Headcase2]

I realize this goes against popular opinion, but I think the Coryphee Duet is rubbish for many strategies. I'm often pleased to see my opponent waste 14 soul stones on it, because as soon as he loses initiative I know the Duet is going down. Often the blow to morale alone is enough to win the game then and there. If that opponent has lost his Duet a couple of times and he's playing them carefully he'll have a hard time bringing out their potential and he'll end up with a 14 SS table decoration.

As for Cassandra: she's great for Colette, but take away her use soul stone and she's another 9 stones of dead meat. She needs to activate first to get those to attack and damage against her, or she's pulp. And if you take both Cassie and the Duet in a non-Colette list one of them is going to be too late to activate its defenses...

Apart from that most Arcanist masters tend to like their stones for themselves. The Duet tends to eat a lot of them, because let's be honest, you don't want your 14 SS beauty to go down to concentrated Peacebringer fire from random minions, do you?

[LonelyPath]

With Colette being able to generate SS in addition to the free 1 she gets each turn, it makes it possible to get a good production rate of Doves for Coryphee to use as SS (which is what I use them for), plus the Duet is difficult to tie down in combat and is a great hit and run model. I mainly use them for Power Ritual and to eliminate isolated enemy models and the occasional Master/Henchman that can be bothersome. To me they are well worth they 14SS cost for the duet and I've never found them anything short of excellent in my Showgirls.

[Odin1981]

I could see ramos using them but other than that I feel its mainly just him and colette that they would see play often in. I would personally be impressed to see them used in conjunction with raspy but I think that just wouldn't be possible given how ss using heavy raspy is.

To headcase2: play good players who don't sit the duet right in front of a bunch of your models who actually know how to use the crew and you might learn to hate them but if you continue playing Colette newbs then I guess you probably don't care about them.

I can only ever see putting the coryphee in "tank mode" if every threating model sans your master is taken off the board otherwise its borderline retarded cause if they lose initiative they lose damn near 40% of their crew.

That being said though you did bring up a good point headcase about why she is mainly used in colette lists is I think them in marcus/raspy would just be to much on your ss cache without being able to generate "extra's" like colette can. I feel its possible to run them in a ramos crew cause usually he stands in the rear and probably wouldn't use much if he stayed out of combat but the other two masters I think use them too much via offensively or as survival optiuons to get too much use out of them.