Finally read the Errata/clarification page

[nerdelemental]

Just to be clear, THIS designer doesn't approach model/Faction design any differently regardless of which Faction I'm working on at any time. Yes, I have favorite models...ACROSS all five Factions. That's human, not a conspiracy, but I don't let it influence my work. So there's no favoritism on this end when it comes to Faction design, and since I have a pretty powerful voice on what you see on the pages, I work hard to ensure nobody else works it that way either.

.

Well, THIS designer goes way out of his way to SCREW THE NECROMANTIC HACKS! One day I think "Ooooh, this Guild model will screw them all!" and the next I'll be all, "Now this Arcanist model will screw spirits, but only the Res ones!" and the next day I'll be like "Now this Neverborn will screw them all but a RES player will post online how much Res get screwed all time!"

That's how I do it. Screw the Res. That's my gameplan. Make everything else look amazing. That's because, you know, stinky corpses. Yuck.

[ThePandaDirector]

@nerdelemental: Your comment would be funny, if it wasn't for the fact it reveals your secret necrophiliac tendencies. I mean it's a free world, I get accused of liking pandas too much all the time so I'm certainly no judge, but you have to come to terms with your true relationship with ressers. Just let it out, big boys cry too =]

[Fetid Strumpet]

Repeat my above comment of brokeback mountain, only replace Justin with Nerdelemental, and the mountain with a crypt.

Bow chicka Wow wow.

[Gensuke626]

Bow chicka Wow wow.

Wait...we're doing Phineous and Ferb singalong, right?

Edited June 8, 2012 by Gensuke626

[Q'iq'el]

Two things.

1.) Resurrecting is currently in the name of the faction and thus implies their overall tone.

2.) Some of the most powerful Resurrectionist strategies currently involve a heavy reliance on personally produces Corpse Counters.

There's nothing wrong with Relying on Corpse Counters to overpower your opponent.

There's a world of wrong in overestimating the value of Soulstones though and this is where the dog-killing Rezzer players hurt.

The resources needed to summon are: 1+ Counter, 1+ good high :crows card, 1+ AP. If you are going to kill your own Dogs for these Counters, add 1+ AP and several flips with possible need to cheat low or high.

By bringing Dogs and killing them you typically save 2~3 SS per model at the cost of an entire turn of the game when your models don't do much (they either die, summon or are Slow). To do this and insist on doing this in a faction which has problems reaching objectives on time is a mistake.

Simply speaking, all the above are worth far more than 2SS. There are no saving to be made by killing Dogs and bringing more powerful minions.

Interestingly enough Colette builds that don't start with any Doves or Growth lists going off 2x DM tend to suffer from similar problems, because they too overestimate the value of the Soulstone savings they make.

And if you stop going for these silly Soulstones and actually bring the crew that can do the job from the turn 1, you will still be summoning and reanimating all through the game, just as the Rezzers should. When needed and as needed, rather than upfront. That's it.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Q'iq'el

[Zachilles]

I don't really know the right way to respond to this thread, the OP is not wrong in my opinion but he is kinda whiney, yet the Devs that have responded haven't given any explanation other than "nope, your wrong".

I really just don't understand how things like Crooligans and Stitched Togethers can exist in the same game.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Some things that I think are pretty clear to me:

• Nicodem isn't as powerful as the Dreamer and will lose most games against the Dreamer. Molly, too, and Seamus and even McMourning. This is assuming equal play skill.
  
• Overall, people who play the Resurrectionist faction are likely to lose most games against most other factions. This is assuming equal play skill.
  
• This is not because the people who play Resurrectionists are all stupid and doing it wrong
  
• It's not because the people who play Resurrectionists are picking the wrong tactics, and if they just learned the right tactics they could play Molly/Nicodem/Seamus and beat the Dreamer/Hamelin/Collette/Collodi half of the time.
  
• You can often overcome imbalances by playing to your strategy and schemes.
  
• The fact that you can often overcome imbalances by playing to your strategy and schemes doesn't mean that there aren't imbalances.
  
• This imbalance of Resurrectionists wasn't intentional on the part of Wyrd game designers, who designed the Resurrectionists to be awesome and compelling but in a different way than other factions. It was an emergent trait of a very complex and multidimensional game. No pun intended.
  
• The Malifaux game designers are very, very good at what they do. They're smart people who produce awesome games.
  
• Wyrd is going to continue to bring out new models to try to address the imbalance of factions, because they're very good at what they do.
  
• It'll take a few months.
  
• Malifaux is a lot of fun, we all like playing the game, and there are a lot of smart people here.
  
• Brains. Gnah!
  

Edited June 9, 2012 by Hateful Darkblack

[Ozz]

I have to say im seeing a lot of comparison to the "top 5" masters in this thread. Whilst i would agree that in general Resurectionists are perhaps a little weaker than other factions (Bar Kirai ) against other masters ie not the "top 5" they can hold their own, and be a competitive game. But they seem to have the trouble of almost all attacks hit them, just not doing much damage.

So my views would be that there could be something done to the current dead men/women but what exactly i have no idea what could be helpful to them and stay balanced (ie not make it become weak to OP)

[Rage]

No comparison, really. We Bellinghamsters live in a town referred to as "The City of Subdued Excitement", that frequently makes the "best places to live" lists. We've got a special combination of natural beauty, outdoor activities, beer, and a vibrant gaming community.

Sandwich lives in a town known regionally for the "Tacoma Aroma", and frequently gets ranked as a stressful place to live. http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/West/01/10/life.stress.reut/ It's bound to affect one's morale!

Move to Bellingham, Sandwich! Up here we don't care about balance and Ressers do great!

It's just unfortunate that Bellingham is soon losing their best (without any doubt whatsoever) Malifaux player (ever), and that he'll be living in Tacoma after that as well.

That said, Sandwich, I noticed that Malifaux has really died out in that area. I have every intention of bringing it back and starting a campaign or league at some point during the summer. If you would ever like to play a couple games, just let me know and we can set something up.

---------- Post added at 08:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 PM ----------

I just want a thriving Malifaux community in my area.

And it won't happen until a new design philosophy for the ressers comes into play.

I'm determined to prove you wrong

(And no, it's not to prove that you DONT want a thriving Malifaux community!)

[Q'iq'el]

Some things that I think are pretty clear to me:

It's pretty clear to me Resurrectionist players are attracted to the dark theme of the faction, because they are inherently emotional, moody and pessimistic about everything they do.

How about that? Just a joke, but really, that's what these discussions always boil down to.

Every single point you make hits an aspect of what really is a one single thing: the objective-oriented game with faction-to-faction balance.

I'm not sure at what point things go wrong for some players, but I'd speculate some of the following are true:

1. People enter Malifaux under the impression it is a very-low cost game in which you choose your favorite master and core of the crew and then add some models to swap in and out depending on the Strategy.

- While it is a low cost game where you choose your faction, pick up at least 2, preferably 3 masters and buy enough models to field several types of crews with variable level of overlapping. Additionally, Ressurectionists are the only faction where you probably want all the masters and most of the minions, making Malifaux for Rezzers not a low cost game.

2. Objective oriented means certain imbalance is inherent and going after strategies to mitigate the lack of balance is *EXACTLY* what the game is about. This game is all about asymmetrical combat. And it is not as simple as NB > ALL or Dreamer>ALL. Regardless of the master you bring and the Strategy you get, there always is a possibility your opponent will have it easier and you'll always have to deal with it. Again, this is the name of the game.

3. The correct syntax of balance complain in Malifaux is:

"I've brought master A with crew A+ to deal with Strategy X and the opponent's crew. My opponent had master B and Strategy Y, but his crew was very suboptimal for the Strategy and had nothing to counter my crew. Even though our skills are equal, he still won, which means there is serious problem with master B".

This may be not entirely serious for a comment, but the point is there are so many variables, you can't really claim anything more than an impression of things. Definitely not clarity. Actually I think the testers themselves cannot possibly test all the combinations and synergies possible and focus on the most common builds - that's why we get erratas and fixes after some community input. This is only natural, the game is too complex.

Whether Rezzers are OP or UP isn't conclusive IMHO. Sure, lots of people struggle with them. Then lots of people keep saying "I want to bring 6 dogs and keep reanimating corpses and I don't care what you say", which is exactly the way to suck at Rezzers, most of the time.

I use Reanimate on Nicodem opportunistically (if I have the card and a counter appears, reallistically speaking 1-2 times per game if the opponent drops Corpse counters or Mortimer digs them up), to replenish my losses (when my own models die and drop CC) and strategically for late-game objective claiming, if I have Rafkin or spare Counters.

Technically speaking none of those 3 depends on the opponent dropping Counters (it merely makes things a bit easier) and none requires wasting turn 1 on dog-killing, which really sets Rezzers back. I have similar success rate with Nico as with Lilith, which doesn't say much as I play the game casually (though not in a very "soft" environment).

[Sandwich]

It's just unfortunate that Bellingham is soon losing their best (without any doubt whatsoever) Malifaux player (ever), and that he'll be living in Tacoma after that as well.

That said, Sandwich, I noticed that Malifaux has really died out in that area. I have every intention of bringing it back and starting a campaign or league at some point during the summer. If you would ever like to play a couple games, just let me know and we can set something up.

---------- Post added at 08:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 PM ----------

I'm determined to prove you wrong

(And no, it's not to prove that you DONT want a thriving Malifaux community!)

God I hope you can do better than I can.

You have my full 100% support, and I'll do anything within my power to help.

[Rage]

I've already got a few people interested who travel through or live on the outskirts of Tacoma/Puyallup. Do you happen to have emails of the guys who used to play in the area? I'm going to work up a couple ideas and see what people are interested in.

I'm also a Henchman now (I think the only time we've played was right when I was starting). For what it's worth, I may be able to snag us some goodies post-GenCon when they start doing swag for events or story-based campaigns.

---------- Post added at 09:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 PM ----------

Also, what this means is that you're not allowed to quit Malifaux. Not yet, at least. I think we should play a few games and chat about what things were a problem. It's too bad we can't have alcohol at the Matrix. Alcohol solves everything.

What helps with the guys in Bellingham is that we tend to keep our games focused more around having a good time and making sure our opponent has a good time. We tend to avoid using things that are overpowered, need a heavy amount of tweaking, or just are no fun with. For that reason, while a couple of us do own Hamelin crews, typically it's not something we bring to the table regularly. We do have some heavy summoning Resser lists, and two pretty beastly Lillith grow lists, but even then there are a lot of ways to mitigate that and get around it.

You know what would help? A beard. And sir, I happen to have one.

[ravenborne]

I think what may have happened along the evolving design process was that Rezzers started out with one design intent, but through various changes (like removing the original way to generate corpse counters) rezzers sort of got left a bit homless. It looks like later designs have tried to push them in a different direction, but this is fighting with what seems to be the original intent on the Master's cards. I agree that the name of the faction gives an implicit promise that the faction will be based around returning dead models to life, and that play style ought to be a bit more viable. I am not talking about dog slaughter, I don't think that has to be the basis of summoning the dead, its only emerged because people want the implied flavor of the faction but the game has shifted so that its not very viable to depend on what is on the opponent's side of the table.

I for one have been playing rezzers over a year now and have just accepted what is being said in most of this thread, and because I love Malifaux, my answer has been to move on to another faction for a while (playing Outcasts). I can say after a year of fighting for every VP with rezzers that some of the ways a player can earn VPs playing Outcasts seem..almost like I am not having to do anything other than play my Master the way it is designed...its as if I just play the game and VPs show up, very unlike playing non-Kirai rezzers.

[Sandwich]

So are you saying thar ressers, as a faction, do not have the tools do complete schemes and strategies against the other factions?

I'm no expert, but that's rubbish isn't it?

I look through the books and I see a faction with plenty of strength and depth...odd.

Oh don't be silly, anyone can win at this game.

I've never said, and I never will say something that misguided.

I'm saying that compared to ALL other factions, we have the LEAST tools and the most weak or non-synergetic models in the game, currently.

I would like to know how you know that Rezzers are underpowered as a fact.

None of this anecdotal evidence (i.e. "Everyone always loses with Rezzers....except me, cause I'm super smart."), I want hard data.

Additionally, you cannot state that they are a underpowered faction (except for Kirai).

Kirai is a Rezzer master. Any discussion regarding the strengths and weakness of the faction must include her. You cannot exempt her from the discussion just to strengthen your own argument.

Finally, you complained that Wyrd has not responded to the perceived weakness of the faction. I would argue that they have responded with Kirai. Why do you continue to discount her presence in the faction?

I know for a fact that they are weak because I'm pretty fantastic at this game and through playing multiple master from multiple factions, the Resser's have the most difficulty succeeding in the game with a plethora of different schemes and strategies.

Again, I stated far earlier in the thread that people who are uninterested in my argument would just say "HEY YOU HAVE KIRAI" and my 'already-established' counter argument to that is simply "What if I want to play Seamus, Nicodem, or McMourning."

The faction is called "Resurrectionists" not "Kirai"

Implying more than a single master.

I think it is respectable to gladly admit when wrong and that was my point.

I'm also hoping that you are wrong in this case, but honestly I don't have enough experience in this game to say either way. I do know that I pretty much always have fun when playing Malifaux, win or lose, and that's something I can't say for very many other games.

I do also somewhat agree with you on your apparent desire to have more Master to Master balance and less reliance on Faction to Faction balance. I think that due to the wide variety of Masters and related themed minion choices (such as going Seamus + Belles or Rasputina and December Cult models) somewhat entices players to play to those themes, which may not be optimal choices for all match-ups, strategies and schemes.

For instance the December's Cult and Rasputina are pretty slow (generally) and can have a hard time with speed schemes/strategies. But if I break theme and throw in a Coryphee or Duet my crew can then deal with speed schemes/strategeis much better. On the otherhand, i think there is a tendancy in players to look at subfactions and not want to break themes. Especially with new players. I see that all the time on the Warmachine/Hordes, where new players want to start off with a specific caster and his/her theme list (which may not be the most effective, game or cost, way to get into WarmaHordes).

Because of this desire to stay "in theme" certain Masters may seem weak or underpowered, especially in comparison to Masters that have very strong "theme" lists. This can certainly seem unfair or unbalanced. Supposedly the Faction vs Faction balance is supposed to counter this and bring balance to the game. Unfortunately this doesn't help new players who only like parts of a faction or worse just a single master and his/her themed crew. For this reason, I'd like to see greater Master vs Master balance. However, I realize that can be difficult and might even break Faction vs Faction balance if done poorly.

Anyway, I'm going to stick with the Malifaux is fun to play and I hope it stays that way.

I always love your responses.

I'll be sticking to Malifaux as well, I promise.

I don't really know the right way to respond to this thread, the OP is not wrong in my opinion but he is kinda whiney, yet the Devs that have responded haven't given any explanation other than "nope, your wrong".

I really just don't understand how things like Crooligans and Stitched Togethers can exist in the same game.

Sorry for coming off as whiney, I didn't mean to.

I'm just bad at getting specific tones off through text when I'm expressing personal opinion.

- - -

I've already got a few people interested who travel through or live on the outskirts of Tacoma/Puyallup. Do you happen to have emails of the guys who used to play in the area? I'm going to work up a couple ideas and see what people are interested in.

I'm also a Henchman now (I think the only time we've played was right when I was starting). For what it's worth, I may be able to snag us some goodies post-GenCon when they start doing swag for events or story-based campaigns.

---------- Post added at 09:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 PM ----------

Also, what this means is that you're not allowed to quit Malifaux. Not yet, at least. I think we should play a few games and chat about what things were a problem. It's too bad we can't have alcohol at the Matrix. Alcohol solves everything.

What helps with the guys in Bellingham is that we tend to keep our games focused more around having a good time and making sure our opponent has a good time. We tend to avoid using things that are overpowered, need a heavy amount of tweaking, or just are no fun with. For that reason, while a couple of us do own Hamelin crews, typically it's not something we bring to the table regularly. We do have some heavy summoning Resser lists, and two pretty beastly Lillith grow lists, but even then there are a lot of ways to mitigate that and get around it.

You know what would help? A beard. And sir, I happen to have one.

I really just need to grow out a beard.

Two beards are better than one.

I think what may have happened along the evolving design process was that Rezzers started out with one design intent, but through various changes (like removing the original way to generate corpse counters) rezzers sort of got left a bit homless. It looks like later designs have tried to push them in a different direction, but this is fighting with what seems to be the original intent on the Master's cards. I agree that the name of the faction gives an implicit promise that the faction will be based around returning dead models to life, and that play style ought to be a bit more viable. I am not talking about dog slaughter, I don't think that has to be the basis of summoning the dead, its only emerged because people want the implied flavor of the faction but the game has shifted so that its not very viable to depend on what is on the opponent's side of the table.

I for one have been playing rezzers over a year now and have just accepted what is being said in most of this thread, and because I love Malifaux, my answer has been to move on to another faction for a while (playing Outcasts). I can say after a year of fighting for every VP with rezzers that some of the ways a player can earn VPs playing Outcasts seem..almost like I am not having to do anything other than play my Master the way it is designed...its as if I just play the game and VPs show up, very unlike playing non-Kirai rezzers.

You're absolutely correct in your assessment, and our argument is the same, but with a different direction.

I'm going to stick to the Ressers as I have a feeling that the reboot of the first book will come eventually, and with it, there will be buffs to my beloved(s).

[Joel]

So, your complaint is that, although ressers have the tools to do the job in any given game of malifaux, other factions have more tools and shinier ones?

If you've got the tools, you've got the tools.

If you are saying that ressers have to work harder for their wins than other factions (but start by eliminating their book 2 master), I would wonder how you would feel if all the other book 2 masters were taken out of the equation?

Neverborn without dreamer, guild without Hoffman, arcarnists without colette and outcasts without hamelin.

Bu with all the minions left in. Would you have the same perceptions about the matchups? After all, if we're debating the level of th playing field, let's even it up a bit for discussion purposes.

Under these conditions, do you still have the same argument, or would ressers have the same pitch now?

[Sandwich]

So, your complaint is that, although ressers have the tools to do the job in any given game of malifaux, other factions have more tools and shinier ones?

If you've got the tools, you've got the tools.

If you are saying that ressers have to work harder for their wins than other factions (but start by eliminating their book 2 master), I would wonder how you would feel if all the other book 2 masters were taken out of the equation?

Neverborn without dreamer, guild without Hoffman, arcarnists without colette and outcasts without hamelin.

Bu with all the minions left in. Would you have the same perceptions about the matchups? After all, if we're debating the level of th playing field, let's even it up a bit for discussion purposes.

Under these conditions, do you still have the same argument, or would ressers have the same pitch now?

Well, if I'm using an Ox and an Iron plow while you're driving the latest in John Deere technology, we're both going to plow our fields eventually, I'll just come out of it ragged, sweaty and miserable, and behind you a good eight hours.

We do have many of the tools we need, they're just poorly crafted and outdated, even in our most recent book.

With that statement made, my argument would remain the same, since I've already removed Kirai from my persuasion, it wouldn't change much of anything.

The Watcher still hard counters any terror build, Ryle still outclasses swarmer crews, (And Lure intensive, if you're a newbie) the Dead Rider is still designed for Leveticus, Spirits (Except Onryo) are still designed for Kirai (Or LCB, for Night Terrors) Guild Autopsy are still....... And Molly is still the weakest Henchmen in the game and the Rogue Necromancy still costs 10 SS or 4 CC (Or like 8 BPC) with very little utility or survivability.

The Toolkit is still abso-freakin-lutely amazing for Ramos (And kinda Raspypoo<33333), Kaeris is still a top tier powerful nuker, Coryphee are still super-amazing for any strategy / scheme available, Gunsmiths are still super powerful damage and utility, the Spider is meh, Raptors are great for Lucius (You got me on that one) and the Mechanical Rider synergizes well with Ramos (And Colette but she doesn't count.) Perfomer and Mannequin are Colette's babies, Silent One is an ultra powerful utility (And kinda nuker) for Raspybby<3333333 and Snowstorm I don't personally like but it's no doubt super powerful, and Soul Stone Miners are great with... Well Ramos. (And freakin' amazing with C.Hoffman but he doesn't count.)

Ready for Neverborn? Me too.

Collodi and Marionettes are #2 Henchmen (Von Schill is always #1) the Alp is a super powerful swarmer model (Less so with the Errata and without the Dreamer, but still.) The Black Blood Shaman makes Nekima / Grow lists ridiculously deadly and has absolutely no drawbacks, Coppelius is a hard-hitting, Terrifying powerhouse who can throw Paralyze out like it's candy at a LGBT parade.

Insideous Madness is by far a top tier 4 Pt model and can absolutely lock down an entire crew to be nommed upon without effort, Lelu and Lilitu are a 14 Pt combo of pure Luring, self-healing, high mobility murder with a see-through dress. Nekima is a powerhouse (and rightfully so, that model is freakin' insane to transport) and works amazing with more than just Lilith.

Stitched together are the strongest 5 Pt model in the game by a whole freakin lot and Wicked Dolls can decimate a crew if you run them with Collodi or Zoraida.

I can do Outcasts, too, if you want.

But it's the same typy bits with different names and expositions.

Edited June 9, 2012 by Sandwich

[Joel]

I understand your points, but I'm not sure you're getting mine. Instead of the plowing analogy, my own view is that if I have a screwdriver that works and you have two, then are you really any better off than me when it comes to building a shelf? After all, you can only use one of them.

I look at ressers and I see The board control of models like the belles. The area control of jaakuna ubume, support for minions from models like rafkin, killers like bête noir and resiliency across the board from near-faction wide rules like hard to wound/kill and slow to die everywhere!

I see a faction where every avatar has a competitive place (something no other faction could say). I see a faction that can get about the board when it needs (night terrors, canine remains, shikome) to and can control opponents movement when it doesn't.

I see a faction that I want to play and one that I can win with - and that's why I've bought into them (starting with seamus). I've been on the receiving end of several talented resser playerswith a mixture of results either way. I see potential.

Let's see if I agree with your current viewpoint in a few months time .

[Gruesome]

I think that you are right that rezzers avatars are great.

I think for some of your other points, it will be interesting to hear your views in 6 months.

[RevYolution]

I have been playing the ressers for almost a year and a half now. I in no way think that they are UP even when I take out Kiri. We as ressers may not have the hard hitting, fast, amazing models that the Neverborn have but when our stuff dies we bring it back. Other factions cannot do this with the ease ressers can.

I found that there is a steep learning curve to the ressers that is not there with a lot of other factions. With the ressers positioning is much much much more important than the other factions. I find that I have to plan two turns ahead for where I want my models to be for what I have brought them to do. Compared to other factions where their main goal is to get in rage of you as fast as possible and blow you apart.

Also I feel that the complaints that our tools are old and out dated with crappy synergy is complete rubish. Our tools are just as good as every other faction if used in the right situations. I agree in a vacuum out tools are very underwhelming but when considering the strats, schemes, terrain, and what your opponent is playing it is very very easy for ressers to win.

[JMGraham]

It's just unfortunate that Bellingham is soon losing their best (without any doubt whatsoever) Malifaux player (ever), and that he'll be living in Tacoma after that as well.

Bah! Losing our hairiest, most wild-eyed Malifaux player, is all. Almost a blessing, that. I'd be sad, but I know he'll come back anytime we do anything interesting (which is like, what, every week?).

[ukrocky]

Lololololol. Snowstorm super powerful? Raptors for lucius? Oh man. So many funny comments sandwich and yet I really cba on my phone!

[Rage]

Now, now, be nice.

That said, I'll agree that Raptors DO go well with Lucius. I haven't had much experience with the Snowstorm though, though I'm looking to try it out soon.

Sandwich, are there any particular days of the week or weekend that you'd be up for a game? How are Sundays for you?

[Rathnard]

Are Ressers the weakest faction? Maybe they are but honestly, I really don't think it's a problem.

Like it or not, no wargame outside of Chess is perfectly balanced. Look at the other major systems - Warmachine players regularly "comment" about how everything in the Cryx Faction is amazing and 40k, well, has Grey Knights. I could fo on, but I'm not that familiar with the other game systems these days.

But all things considered, I believe that while the Ressers might be the weakest faction, the relative power level between factions really isn't bad. While it may require more skill to to do well with (non-Kirai) Ressers, they'll still put up a fight and are still more than capable of winning against the other factions.

In any case, it's this kind of talk that gets me in a mood to pick up a Molly crew.

---------- Post added at 10:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:27 AM ----------

Now, now, be nice.

That said, I'll agree that Raptors DO go well with Lucius.

...Really? Could you explain how, since I've never really considered Raptors beyond their value with Marcus and in combination with a Spawn Mum in Zoraida's crew.

[ravenborne]

I don't think anyone is really saying they are so out of balance as to be unplayable, certainly not. Rezzer players are often some of the most faction loyal because they really like the flavor. And sometimes you get some spectacular wins. Sometimes they do well in tournaments, but if you start looking at the lists, they are all suspiciously non-rezzerish. After about a year of it, when you switch to another faction, you notice something--something that doesnt seem to click as much with rezzers as other factions--its hard to nail down but I guess I would call it synergy.

Love my Rezzers, but they require a lot of work to get an average return. I actually have some ideas about what I would like to see to improve them. In a nutshell, they need a bit more of the mobility of other factions (without going for the 2-3 obvious choices). If the idea of summoning models could be tied into mobility, I think it would make for a very cool play style. Essentially if somehow their creation of undead could allow for a greater range, or for some kind of transposition, they would be able to incorporate summoning in an effective way instead of a self slaughter summoning spam. It seems like Molly and Crooligans were an attempt to alleviate this problem, but it just isn't quite working. None of them hit hard enough.

Board control and speed win this game. Kirai works because she can get her summoned models where they need to be. She doesn't have to summon tons of models to be effective, she can put a few models in the right places. If the other rezzer masters were to pick up a little of her style, that sort of thing would go a long way towards making them more - synergetic.

---------- Post added at 11:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------

One last thing I thought of, way too many Crows needed to make them work with more synergy. They could do with a few less suit requirements. They actually do have quite a range of options, but you rarely get to use them together because of the limitation of high Crows. And what that does is slow the game down as the rezzer player tries to think out what the best option is going to be for that one decent crow in hand.

Edited June 10, 2012 by ravenborne

[Sandwich]

Lololololol. Snowstorm super powerful? Raptors for lucius? Oh man. So many funny comments sandwich and yet I really cba on my phone!

I don't play much Arcanists, unless I'm against them.

As Raspy, as I said, I don't use Snow Storm.

But its still an 11 point model, and probably behaves like one.

And Raptor with a Lucius / Sonia crew as Objective Grabbers?

Yeah they're pretty good.

Although they're just one brand of rad.

Now, now, be nice.

That said, I'll agree that Raptors DO go well with Lucius. I haven't had much experience with the Snowstorm though, though I'm looking to try it out soon.

Sandwich, are there any particular days of the week or weekend that you'd be up for a game? How are Sundays for you?

Well, most Sundays I take my family fishing, but I'm down for any saturdays we can arrange.

I'll polish up my models and everything.

...Really? Could you explain how, since I've never really considered Raptors beyond their value with Marcus and in combination with a Spawn Mum in Zoraida's crew.

Just responding to this segment because Ravenborne said everything I would've said to the prior half.

Raptors with a guild crew CAN work wonders because they're pack travelling models with a high Wk and Flight.

And while the Watcher is relatively as fast, it has some serious extra utility that you often won't pass up for Objectives.

While there's a plethora of additional methods the Guild has to deal with Objectives, the Austringer / Raptor pair works pretty good too.